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Mass shootings in USA; renamed from "27 dead" in Texas Church shooting
Topic Started: Nov 5 2017, 08:29 PM (402 Views)
Steve K
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41880511

What to say? Another appalling massacre but we don't really know the background yet
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Well the US has had guns for 200 years but these mass killings are a relatively new phenomenon. So maybe just gun ownership is not the whole problem.
Personally I think that drug use is the prime factor ( and perhaps mental illness related to it)just as it seems to be with so called domestic terrorists .Perhaps a culture of nihilism fostered over a few decades of decline.
Anyone bleating that gun ownership should be banned..forget it ...there’s are too many guns around for legislation to be able to dent it
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Affa
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marybrown
Feb 15 2018, 04:12 PM
johnofgwent
Feb 15 2018, 03:19 PM
Predictably, the BBC page advising the world this latest nutter was known about asks "is it time to arm teachers

Yeah why not.... ==(B-o)
Will you get shot for failing your exams?

Are teachers immune from stress related mental health problems?
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Happy Hornet
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gansao
Feb 15 2018, 05:13 PM
Well the US has had guns for 200 years but these mass killings are a relatively new phenomenon. So maybe just gun ownership is not the whole problem.
Personally I think that drug use is the prime factor ( and perhaps mental illness related to it)just as it seems to be with so called domestic terrorists .Perhaps a culture of nihilism fostered over a few decades of decline.
Anyone bleating that gun ownership should be banned..forget it ...there’s are too many guns around for legislation to be able to dent it
Well yes but every country has people with mental health and/or drug issues. Is it not in everyone's best interests to make it as difficult as is reasonably possible for such people to get their hands on firearms?

I agree that any restrictions on firearms sales would make little or no difference in the short to medium term given the huge number of guns in circulation in the US, but they've got to start somewhere and it could be an important first step in the long term.
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Happy Hornet
Feb 15 2018, 06:59 PM
gansao
Feb 15 2018, 05:13 PM
Well the US has had guns for 200 years but these mass killings are a relatively new phenomenon. So maybe just gun ownership is not the whole problem.
Personally I think that drug use is the prime factor ( and perhaps mental illness related to it)just as it seems to be with so called domestic terrorists .Perhaps a culture of nihilism fostered over a few decades of decline.
Anyone bleating that gun ownership should be banned..forget it ...there’s are too many guns around for legislation to be able to dent it
Well yes but every country has people with mental health and/or drug issues. Is it not in everyone's best interests to make it as difficult as is reasonably possible for such people to get their hands on firearms?

I agree that any restrictions on firearms sales would make little or no difference in the short to medium term given the huge number of guns in circulation in the US, but they've got to start somewhere and it could be an important first step in the long term.


It’s not in your best interests because you don’t live there.
There has been attempts to restrict gun ownership in the US and there has been enough resistance there to stymie it.
Given the love the US has with guns, the amount of guns , the probable ineffectiveness of small restrictions and the possible backlash and violence that could occur if there was an attempt to seriously restrict firearm ownership. I suspect that overall there could be more deaths from a crackdown on ownerships than leaving it alone and trying to address the mental state of the people who do this.
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Jessamy Bride
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Stopping unbalanced teenagers from holding an arsenal of weapons could be a start...... and one which the majority 89% of people, including gun owners would support.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/
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ranger121
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Would any self-respecting Police Officer in America go without a gun on his hip?

Until you can disarm the US police, one is never, ever going to rid the citizen of USA of the RIGHT to bear arms.

I'm afraid that is the bottom line.



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I suspect that many gun owners in the US would view a restriction of gun ownership in the same way that many motorists in the U.K. would view restricting cars to 45mph and having a 20 mph limit in built up areas.
The argument would be that many lives would be saved and one could still drive cars. In fact there probably would be as many lives saved in the U.K. if we did this as there was livesclost in US gun massacres.
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Jessamy Bride
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We already have driver restrictions though ...many of us have cars that will do 120mph but we don't go that fast because of the fines.

Trumps endless condolences to the parents of dead kids ...is woefully inadequate.

...and most people would agree with that
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Rich
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gansao
Feb 15 2018, 07:57 PM
Happy Hornet
Feb 15 2018, 06:59 PM
gansao
Feb 15 2018, 05:13 PM
Well the US has had guns for 200 years but these mass killings are a relatively new phenomenon. So maybe just gun ownership is not the whole problem.
Personally I think that drug use is the prime factor ( and perhaps mental illness related to it)just as it seems to be with so called domestic terrorists .Perhaps a culture of nihilism fostered over a few decades of decline.
Anyone bleating that gun ownership should be banned..forget it ...there’s are too many guns around for legislation to be able to dent it
Well yes but every country has people with mental health and/or drug issues. Is it not in everyone's best interests to make it as difficult as is reasonably possible for such people to get their hands on firearms?

I agree that any restrictions on firearms sales would make little or no difference in the short to medium term given the huge number of guns in circulation in the US, but they've got to start somewhere and it could be an important first step in the long term.


It’s not in your best interests because you don’t live there.
There has been attempts to restrict gun ownership in the US and there has been enough resistance there to stymie it.
Given the love the US has with guns, the amount of guns , the probable ineffectiveness of small restrictions and the possible backlash and violence that could occur if there was an attempt to seriously restrict firearm ownership. I suspect that overall there could be more deaths from a crackdown on ownerships than leaving it alone and trying to address the mental state of the people who do this.
Nothing will change, there have now been 18 gun attacks at US seats of learning already this year.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=What+is+the+2nd+amendment%3F&oq=What+is+the+2nd+amendment%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.11946j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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Curious Cdn
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Jessamy Bride
Feb 15 2018, 08:34 PM
Stopping unbalanced teenagers from holding an arsenal of weapons could be a start...... and one which the majority 89% of people, including gun owners would support.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/
Boy, you got that one wrong.


http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/americas-gun-problem-explained/ar-BBJatw0?li=AAggNb9&ocid=AARDHP

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Tigger
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Can't be arsed to discuss this, when will the next school massacre take place? I predict a 10 plus er before the month is out.
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Curious Cdn
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Tigger
Feb 15 2018, 11:51 PM
Can't be arsed to discuss this, when will the next school massacre take place? I predict a 10 plus er before the month is out.
I'm putting my thoughts and prayers out there, in advance. That way, I don't have to bother with the empty, hollow platitudes the next times some nutter decides to kill.

https://eand.co/why-were-underestimating-american-collapse-be04d9e55235
Edited by Curious Cdn, Feb 16 2018, 03:31 AM.
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Jessamy Bride
Feb 15 2018, 09:12 PM
We already have driver restrictions though ...many of us have cars that will do 120mph but we don't go that fast because of the fines.

Trumps endless condolences to the parents of dead kids ...is woefully inadequate.

...and most people would agree with that


We have thousands of accidents a year and hundreds of lives lost too. If we governed the top speed of cars to 45 mph and had a speed limit of 20mph in towns accidents and lives lost would be reduced...but who would support it.
I haven’t said this should happen , I said that US gun owner would see heavy gun restriction as most drivers would view the above...both would save lives....arguably the former would save more than the latter.
There are gun restrictions in the US iirc but vary state to state.
Personally I prefer the slightly sickening sight of Trump pretending to be empathetic to the dead children than the forced tears of Obama’s.
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Rich
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It certainly is a "curates egg", personally, I have never held a firearm in my hand in my life but I am not above defending me and mine with whatever comes to hand.

Until the US constitution is changed then nothing will change and we waste our time even discussing the issues of what is onviously most important to the yanks but of no import to the UK, as with the middle east, leave them to their own devices until they come to their senses....maybe in the next century.
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Happy Hornet
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gansao
Feb 16 2018, 05:05 AM
Jessamy Bride
Feb 15 2018, 09:12 PM
We already have driver restrictions though ...many of us have cars that will do 120mph but we don't go that fast because of the fines.

Trumps endless condolences to the parents of dead kids ...is woefully inadequate.

...and most people would agree with that


Personally I prefer the slightly sickening sight of Trump pretending to be empathetic to the dead children than the forced tears of Obama’s.
Even if Obama's tears were of the crocodile variety, I prefer that to Trump going out of his way to make the problem worse:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221
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I think I would homeschool if I was an American parent at this point even if it meant being dirt poor to do it. Children would be far safer and also not get brainwashed and turned into transvestites by commie teachers.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOO_zYYMtd8
Media Falls For Fake News
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papasmurf
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Last night on one of the obscure Freeview channels was a program, part of a series about unusual foods.
Part of the programme was about shooting wild pigs which have become an environment hazard in the aftermath of floods and hurricanes over the last few years.
The pigs which are vermin were being shot with total inappropriate for the job rifles and frankly if you were that piss poor a shot in Europe or Britain you would not be allowed to shoot anywhere. (There are also minimum muzzle energy and calibre sizes in Europe and Britain, and one shot one kill would be generally the norm.)


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Tigger
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Rich
Feb 16 2018, 07:48 AM
It certainly is a "curates egg", personally, I have never held a firearm in my hand in my life but I am not above defending me and mine with whatever comes to hand.

Until the US constitution is changed then nothing will change and we waste our time even discussing the issues of what is onviously most important to the yanks but of no import to the UK, as with the middle east, leave them to their own devices until they come to their senses....maybe in the next century.
:thumbsup:
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Happy Hornet
Feb 16 2018, 08:40 AM
gansao
Feb 16 2018, 05:05 AM
Jessamy Bride
Feb 15 2018, 09:12 PM
We already have driver restrictions though ...many of us have cars that will do 120mph but we don't go that fast because of the fines.

Trumps endless condolences to the parents of dead kids ...is woefully inadequate.

...and most people would agree with that


Personally I prefer the slightly sickening sight of Trump pretending to be empathetic to the dead children than the forced tears of Obama’s.
Even if Obama's tears were of the crocodile variety, I prefer that to Trump going out of his way to make the problem worse:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221


I was referring to false demeanours not their policy.
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Happy Hornet
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Just read something elsewhere which I thought got to the heart of the matter:

"Why not just ban guns and if people get upset about it send them our thoughts and prayers? If thoughts and prayers are good enough for people who have lost family they're good enough for people who have lost guns."
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papasmurf
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Happy Hornet
Feb 17 2018, 06:32 PM
Just read something elsewhere which I thought got to the heart of the matter:

"Why not just ban guns and if people get upset about it send them our thoughts and prayers? If thoughts and prayers are good enough for people who have lost family they're good enough for people who have lost guns."
Just one problem with that collecting all the guns without starting a civil war and/or the government having to deal with several hundred Wacos.
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Rich
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Happy Hornet
Feb 17 2018, 06:32 PM
Just read something elsewhere which I thought got to the heart of the matter:

"Why not just ban guns and if people get upset about it send them our thoughts and prayers? If thoughts and prayers are good enough for people who have lost family they're good enough for people who have lost guns."
You are more than welcome to try convincing the most powerful country on the planet of your suggestion let alone the NRA and changing the 2nd amendment.

Good luck. :thumbsup: .

Oh, by the way...once one person in the USA has a gun then surely it must be incumbent upon the next person to own a firearm in order to protect themselves in the same fashion?

IMO, this has nothing to do with constitution or gun lobbyists but EVERYTHING to do with mindset. Shrugs:
Edited by Rich, Feb 17 2018, 06:42 PM.
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papasmurf
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Rich
Feb 17 2018, 06:41 PM


IMO, this has nothing to do with constitution or gun lobbyists but EVERYTHING to do with mindset. Shrugs:
I agree, it is one of the reasons I would never go to America even if someone paid all my expenses.
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Happy Hornet
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papasmurf
Feb 17 2018, 06:36 PM
Happy Hornet
Feb 17 2018, 06:32 PM
Just read something elsewhere which I thought got to the heart of the matter:

"Why not just ban guns and if people get upset about it send them our thoughts and prayers? If thoughts and prayers are good enough for people who have lost family they're good enough for people who have lost guns."
Just one problem with that collecting all the guns without starting a civil war and/or the government having to deal with several hundred Wacos.
The Last Leg suggested convincing Trump that guns were introduced to America by Muslims.

He wouldn't be able to ban them fast enough then.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ocDFLA5a8
ADL uses Nikolas Cruz to create white supremacy lie
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Alberich
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I was quite impressed with Trumps solution to the school massacre problem. Arm the teachers so that they can shoot any further transgressors! What could be simpler? Next problem please.
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Steve K
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Alberich
Feb 22 2018, 04:33 PM
I was quite impressed with Trumps solution to the school massacre problem. Arm the teachers so that they can shoot any further transgressors! What could be simpler? Next problem please.
Well I think he's right that they should be armed IF they wish

But here's the thing: they would only be able to react AFTER the first shots and likely first deaths. Also a hand gun is sod all use if the assailant is killing kids from 100 yards away with a semi automatic rifle as was the reported intended MO of thos latest nutter.

So it's a mitigation but far from an adequate solution
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Apart from everyone willingly handing their guns in there is no good solution, so what other choice is there.
It is a nightmare for them.
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Happy Hornet
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Alberich
Feb 22 2018, 04:33 PM
I was quite impressed with Trumps solution to the school massacre problem. Arm the teachers so that they can shoot any further transgressors! What could be simpler? Next problem please.
What if one of the kids overpowers the teacher and takes their gun and turns it on his class mates?

What if the armed teacher snaps and goes on the rampage?

What if the teacher shoots at the bad guy, misses and kills a kid?

What if the teacher kills the bad guy and the SWAT team turn up and finds the teacher holding a gun surrounded by dead bodies?

What about the teachers who quite rightly point out that they aren't police officers or soldiers and became teachers because they wanted to teach kids not shoot them?

What about the teachers who demand huge increases in salary to match the huge extra responsibility?

What about the teachers who would resign in droves?

What about the fact that no other developed country is having this conversation?
Edited by Happy Hornet, Feb 22 2018, 07:00 PM.
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Happy Hornet
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Delf
Feb 22 2018, 06:46 PM
Apart from everyone willingly handing their guns in there is no good solution, so what other choice is there.
It is a nightmare for them.
Have professional armed security officers in every school, get the NRA and the pro-gun politicians to pay for it.

Then we'd see how much their precious 2nd amendment was really worth.
Edited by Happy Hornet, Feb 22 2018, 07:37 PM.
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Curious Cdn
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Happy Hornet
Feb 22 2018, 06:55 PM
Alberich
Feb 22 2018, 04:33 PM
I was quite impressed with Trumps solution to the school massacre problem. Arm the teachers so that they can shoot any further transgressors! What could be simpler? Next problem please.
What if one of the kids overpowers the teacher and takes their gun and turns it on his class mates?

What if the armed teacher snaps and goes on the rampage?

What if the teacher shoots at the bad guy, misses and kills a kid?

What if the teacher kills the bad guy and the SWAT team turn up and finds the teacher holding a gun surrounded by dead bodies?

What about the teachers who quite rightly point out that they aren't police officers or soldiers and became teachers because they wanted to teach kids not shoot them?

What about the teachers who demand huge increases in salary to match the huge extra responsibility?

What about the teachers who would resign in droves?
I will tell you exactly what will happen to those teachers. They will all be shot dead one by one by the police as they secure the school room by room. And the police would be right to do so, as they have no idea what they are up against, moment by moment. They can't take the chance that THEIR death is lurking behind every door and will not expend a second to analyse whether the person holding the gun is a good guy or a bad guy (if they even have the means to tell). Would you?
Edited by Curious Cdn, Feb 22 2018, 08:18 PM.
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Oddball
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ranger121
Feb 15 2018, 08:42 PM
Would any self-respecting Police Officer in America go without a gun on his hip?

Until you can disarm the US police, one is never, ever going to rid the citizen of USA of the RIGHT to bear arms.

I'm afraid that is the bottom line.



If the US cops were disarmed now, I would suggest there would be very few of them able to do their job without serious risk of being yet another gun victim.
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Curious Cdn
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marybrown
Feb 15 2018, 04:12 PM
johnofgwent
Feb 15 2018, 03:19 PM
Predictably, the BBC page advising the world this latest nutter was known about asks "is it time to arm teachers

Yeah why not.... ==(B-o)
Will you get shot for failing your exams?
You might for failing to know your history.
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Pro Veritas
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When a professionally drunk Aussie make more sense than the US Government then you know for a fact the US Gov't has got it wrong: https://vimeo.com/219338338

All The Best
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Tigger
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Alberich
Feb 22 2018, 04:33 PM
I was quite impressed with Trumps solution to the school massacre problem. Arm the teachers so that they can shoot any further transgressors! What could be simpler? Next problem please.
I think most of us knew this response was coming, it had to as the most obvious solution, gun control was never a starter.

America = SICK, SICK, SICK...........
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ranger121
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Oddball
Feb 22 2018, 07:41 PM
ranger121
Feb 15 2018, 08:42 PM
Would any self-respecting Police Officer in America go without a gun on his hip?

Until you can disarm the US police, one is never, ever going to rid the citizen of USA of the RIGHT to bear arms.

I'm afraid that is the bottom line.



If the US cops were disarmed now, I would suggest there would be very few of them able to do their job without serious risk of being yet another gun victim.
Various places in the US have 'sort of' 'banned' open carry. People do it anyway, stuff the ordinance. The Constitution says so, right?

Restrictions abound on who will be allowed a 'permit' to carry, open or not.

Silly things, such as being completely free of any contact with the legal system, [no traffic tickets?] which is pretty difficult to achieve in police-state America.

Such as being able to justify in writing exactly why you want a permit. 'I like shooting people' is a grave no-no.

'Long Guns', which include 'assault-like' weapons, may be open carried just about everywhere.

Cops without weapons would be laughed at.
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papasmurf
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ranger121
Feb 22 2018, 08:42 PM


Cops without weapons would be laughed at.
In the case of the latest incident an armed police officer was on scene quickly but apparently decided to do nothing:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634

Florida school shooting: Armed officer 'did not confront killer' 7 minutes ago

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They could disarm a lot of people based on what drugs they are taking, smoke weed? No guns for you. Depressed and taking pharms for it well no guns for you either, opiate addict no guns, alcoholic, no guns for you heavy drinkers ect

How many would be left after that? Probably quite a lot of healthy teetotalers but maybe they should be the ones allowed guns...
Just a suggestion and probably unworkable but not seeing any others which would have same impact put forward.

I'm not for arming teachers, one of them will go mental and wipe out a class full of kids (or maybe shoot up the staff room) before a year is out. As for blaming video games, well it's easy to blame something you do not take part in yourself isn't it.
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Steve K
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So the 'arm the teachers' theory just took a huge knock as it's revealed an armed police officer was at the school and did not enter the building

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634

He's resigned of course but it might be harsh to judge him. As the Army knows very well when it actually comes to a real shooting about 1 in 3 people will freeze even if well armed. A teacher would be even more likely. And how many of us actually know what we'd do is shots were flying. I'd happily bet 90%+ of us would seek cover rather than confront.

But the armed teacher theory is toast
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