Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Uk Debate Mk 2, the UK's liveliest political and social debate site.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
The Pros and Cons of Brexit and Remain; an attempt at objectivity
Topic Started: Feb 26 2018, 09:09 AM (638 Views)
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
This is an attempt to objectively lay out the relative pluses of Leaving or Remain and the obvious counter arguments (but not the counter counter or counter counter counter arguments)

As fairly as I can I've laid out:
- Reasons to leave the EU
- Reasons to Remain
- Specious/False reasons to Leave
- Specious False reasons to Remain

The idea is the OP gets updated with serious omissions and error corrections but discussions about the personalities involved or negotiations stay in their relevant threads. So comments please

Reasons to Leave EU
Reason to LeaveCounter Argument
1. We give the EU control of £13.1B a year (~250M a week) and net contribute £8.6B a year and we could make better use of that money


(link)

The £13B is less than 1% of GDP and less than 2% of government spend and our farming and scientific areas benefit considerably from the £4.5B in grants we receive back from that
2. Free movement and European Citizenship means we have to allow any of 450 million Europeans come here, take our jobs, take our benefits and place difficult to manage burdens on our housing, education systems and social services

Nearly 200,000 are coming each year

The net numbers are reducing (just 90,000 net per year now) as the Eastern nations become more convergent, we can block those who are not genuinely seeking work and many of the EU migrants are filling essential roles in the NHS and other areas
3. We have to accept as British law rules made in Brussels where we are outvoted by the other nations who do not care about UK needsWe only have to accept such rules in limited areas, in all key areas we have a veto and in all political areas that veto is only released IF a specific UK referendum approves the change
4. The EU keeps expanding with new nations that are non convergent to the UKWe can veto any new nation joining and will not make the mistakes we made in 2004
5 The EU takes control of our fishing areas through the Common Fisheries PolicyFish do not recognise borders and without some agreement with EU nations our fish resources will just get trawled up when they wander into their waters. Some agreement is inevitable in or out
6. We cannot negotiate beneficial trade deals with other countries
There are no countries we could negotiate with that would be beneficial to UK jobs where we do not already have a substantial trade agreement through the EU (eg Australia, Canada)
7. The EU forces us to accept cruel animal practices such as live animal transportThere are no substantial reasons to end such practices as most people are happy with current meat supply


Reasons to Remain in the EU
Reason to RemainCounter Argument
1. Being in the Single Market is vital to our economic position especially in these areas
- Selling Financial Services to EU
- Maintaining a Far East underwritten automotive manufacturing sector
- Paper free goods transfer for all industries but especially Aerospace and Automotive

In the most obvious exit scenarios these will be so badly affected the country will be poorer and jobs lost
The single market means we import more from the EU than we export to them so we have a strong hand to negotiate good trade deals for our key areas

Jobs lost will be balanced by less EU migrants working here
2. Lack of free access to Europe's markets risks our key industries falling below critical mass so will inevitably contract or even die sucking in even more imports from more efficient large market serving competitors
We will negotiate a trade deal with the EU that means these industries will survive and thrive
3. Border with Ireland will be forced to be a hard border to implement WTO and EU rules. This risks NI becoming more alienated from the rest of the UK and worse it risks increased tensions in the republican dominated border areas

Not if we negotiate a wide ranging free trade deal with the EU
4. Border with mainland Europe will become paperwork intensive making supply less reliable and more expensive
Not if we negotiate a wide ranging free trade deal with the EU
5. Imports of food from Europe will become more expensive as we have to implement WTO tariffs
Not if we negotiate a wide ranging free trade deal with the EU, we don't have to have any tariffs and anyway who doesn't like living off home grown turnips
6. Access to European flights area, travel through Europe, access to health services, recognition of driving licences etc
These things are easily negotiated and won't be a problem
7 We will lose the international negotiating muscle of being in the EU The EU does not always negotiate in our interest and we should be bold and confident and the world will listen to us


Specious or False 'reasons' to leave the EU
Supposed reason to LeaveRefutal
1. We have to accept asylum seekers because of the EUNo we don't, we have exemptions from the EU refugee agreements. Our obligations are from other treaties
2. The EU is a dictatorshipThe EU is a functioning democracy via the European Parliament, the EU can only force law in limited areas and we have vetos on all really key areas
3. The EU will become a Federal EU SuperstateIt has no such plans and as a member we have a veto over any such moves. A veto that is referendum interlocked
4. The EU will fast track admit Turkey leading to a massive muslim immigration to the UKWhile a member we have a veto over any state admission and Turkey is far far away from ever being a member
5. The European Court of Human Rights rules usIt is not an EU institution so we remain covered by it anyway, they only have supremacy in selected areas and have only ever ruled in line with rights agreements that we support


Specious and/or False 'reasons' to Remain
Supposed reason to RemainRefutal
1. Leaving adds to the risk of war and terrorism
The EU has only a minor impact compared to partnerships like NATO, Five Eyes, the UN and peer to peer intelligence sharing
2. The NHS will collapse without medical staff from the EU We can continue to give work permits, residence whatever for the specialist workers we need
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Replies:
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Feb 27 2018, 10:33 PM
. I agree the fall in the last 18 months is much to do with the £,

As I understand it our EU contributions are declared and paid as euros.
Sterling payments are therefor another 18% higher now.
Who knows, that Bus figure may yet turn out to be true ......... :rubchin:
Edited by Affa, Mar 1 2018, 09:30 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rich
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Well, I listened to the following report from Mark Mardell (I thought he was our USA correspepondent) regarding our so called "love affair with the EU.

I found it to be a very interesting precis of events so far, obviously one can draw different conclusions depending upon where one stands on the situation and we all know my stance.

Have a listen if you are so inclined to remind yourself of what has gone before if you so wish.

it begins at 21 minutes in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b1p5km#play
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Affa
Mar 1 2018, 09:27 AM
Steve K
Feb 27 2018, 10:33 PM
. I agree the fall in the last 18 months is much to do with the £,

As I understand it our EU contributions are declared and paid as euros.
Sterling payments are therefor another 18% higher now.
Who knows, that Bus figure may yet turn out to be true ......... :rubchin:
There are things like farm subsidies to be taken into account, plus the likelihood of the loss of using the EU navigational system. It has already been estimated that to produce our own system would cost between £3 billion to £5billion. We will also lose the EU input into our research and development programme. How much might it cost to lure nurses and doctors into the NHS. How much will trading around the world increase the costs of imports and reduce the income from exports.

I don't doubt there are many more costs that will have to be covered, all dependent upon the UK successfully finding new trade deals.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ewill
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
C-too
May 15 2018, 08:56 AM
Affa
Mar 1 2018, 09:27 AM
Steve K
Feb 27 2018, 10:33 PM
. I agree the fall in the last 18 months is much to do with the £,

As I understand it our EU contributions are declared and paid as euros.
Sterling payments are therefor another 18% higher now.
Who knows, that Bus figure may yet turn out to be true ......... :rubchin:
There are things like farm subsidies to be taken into account, plus the likelihood of the loss of using the EU navigational system. It has already been estimated that to produce our own system would cost between £3 billion to £5billion. We will also lose the EU input into our research and development programme. How much might it cost to lure nurses and doctors into the NHS. How much will trading around the world increase the costs of imports and reduce the income from exports.

I don't doubt there are many more costs that will have to be covered, all dependent upon the UK successfully finding new trade deals.

loss of using the EU navigational system

Eh?

What on earth are you prattling about now??????????????????????

Marine navigation is subjected to SOLAS requirements which are global not EU legislation

http://solasv.mcga.gov.uk/Regulations/regulation19.htm#214
http://solasv.mcga.gov.uk/
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Ewill
May 21 2018, 05:59 PM
loss of using the EU navigational system

Eh?

What on earth are you prattling about now??????????????????????

It has been a big news item over the last few weeks:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
papasmurf
May 21 2018, 06:27 PM
Ewill
May 21 2018, 05:59 PM
loss of using the EU navigational system

Eh?

What on earth are you prattling about now??????????????????????

It has been a big news item over the last few weeks:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/
Yes very surprising.

This could cost us the best part of £10B + ongoing costs unless we come to some sort of deal with the EU on it as otherwise we have a huge hole in our future defence capability

What's that word again? Pyrrhic
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
May 21 2018, 06:52 PM


What's that word again? Pyrrhic
Quite. Yet another problem:-

http://www.hebrides-news.com/fishing-crew-shortage-24418.html

Home Office ‘hostile campaign’ damaging west coast fishing industry 24 April 2018

Isles MP Angus Brendan MacNeil is calling on fishing interests to lobby the UK Government in light of the fallout from the Home Office’s hostile campaign.

Mr MacNeil is particularly focussing on The Secretary of State for DEFRA Michael Gove, The Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell, Scotland Office Minister Lord Duncan and the Home Office, who need to take action on the crew shortage in the west coast of Scotland fishing industry and allow non EEA crew to come to work here.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ewill
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
papasmurf
May 21 2018, 06:27 PM
Ewill
May 21 2018, 05:59 PM
loss of using the EU navigational system

Eh?

What on earth are you prattling about now??????????????????????

It has been a big news item over the last few weeks:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/
Right...
I read the post as being relevant to marine navigation , marine navigation has bugger all to do with the Galileo satellite system

The letter in your link refers to

In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might , possibilities not definites
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Ewill
May 22 2018, 10:13 AM
papasmurf
May 21 2018, 06:27 PM
Ewill
May 21 2018, 05:59 PM
loss of using the EU navigational system

Eh?

What on earth are you prattling about now??????????????????????

It has been a big news item over the last few weeks:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/
Right...
I read the post as being relevant to marine navigation , marine navigation has bugger all to do with the Galileo satellite system

The letter in your link refers to

In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might , possibilities not definites
The problem is if we need to go to a war in 2025 that the bulk of the EU-27 disapprove of we can't use the military grade Galileo system and with the increasing hackability of GPS and jammability of the open systems that would give us a lot of difficulty. Positioning you and your supporting forces is key in fighting.

In the EU we could veto such a block. Seems leaving the EU actually loses us the ability to take sovereign action. How ironic

And how much to get our own military grade system: £10B and rising
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ewill
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
May 22 2018, 10:27 AM
Ewill
May 22 2018, 10:13 AM
papasmurf
May 21 2018, 06:27 PM
Right...
I read the post as being relevant to marine navigation , marine navigation has bugger all to do with the Galileo satellite system

The letter in your link refers to

In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might , possibilities not definites
The problem is if we need to go to a war in 2025 that the bulk of the EU-27 disapprove of we can't use the military grade Galileo system and with the increasing hackability of GPS and jammability of the open systems that would give us a lot of difficulty. Positioning you and your supporting forces is key in fighting.

In the EU we could veto such a block. Seems leaving the EU actually loses us the ability to take sovereign action. How ironic

And how much to get our own military grade system: £10B and rising
So 'we' have never had ''our'' own system and have always used the USA systems , the EU wants an E~U system as well and ''we'' have put about a billion in the pot?

''We'' can continue to use the proven US systems if the EU decides to exclude UK access (which it hasn't done thus far)
Edited by Ewill, May 22 2018, 11:09 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Ewill
May 22 2018, 11:09 AM
Steve K
May 22 2018, 10:27 AM
Ewill
May 22 2018, 10:13 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deeploss of using the EU navigational systemhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might , possibilities not definites
The problem is if we need to go to a war in 2025 that the bulk of the EU-27 disapprove of we can't use the military grade Galileo system and with the increasing hackability of GPS and jammability of the open systems that would give us a lot of difficulty. Positioning you and your supporting forces is key in fighting.

In the EU we could veto such a block. Seems leaving the EU actually loses us the ability to take sovereign action. How ironic

And how much to get our own military grade system: £10B and rising
So 'we' have never had ''our'' own system and have always used the USA systems , the EU wants an E~U system as well and ''we'' have put about a billion in the pot?

''We'' can continue to use the proven US systems if the EU decides to exclude UK access (which it hasn't done thus far)
US system is open but less than precise enough for some operations. Worse it has long been possible to jam it and although there are anti jammers out there they have their limits. The real issue is spoofing where a rogue signal is transmitted that causes a positional error which can be very very bad if a missile hits the wrong target. And again the USA system is running out of mileage as its basic encryption of the military signal is getting long in the tooth so can be broken.

Our military does need a better than GPS system. Galileo would provide such

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ewill
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
May 22 2018, 12:29 PM
Ewill
May 22 2018, 11:09 AM
Steve K
May 22 2018, 10:27 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deeploss of using the EU navigational systemhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might
So 'we' have never had ''our'' own system and have always used the USA systems , the EU wants an E~U system as well and ''we'' have put about a billion in the pot?

''We'' can continue to use the proven US systems if the EU decides to exclude UK access (which it hasn't done thus far)
US system is open but less than precise enough for some operations. Worse it has long been possible to jam it and although there are anti jammers out there they have their limits. The real issue is spoofing where a rogue signal is transmitted that causes a positional error which can be very very bad if a missile hits the wrong target. And again the USA system is running out of mileage as its basic encryption of the military signal is getting long in the tooth so can be broken.

Our military does need a better than GPS system. Galileo would provide such

Are you saying the Yanks are not updating their satellite system if it's so vital for their military?

If not , why not?

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Ewill
May 22 2018, 01:12 PM
Steve K
May 22 2018, 12:29 PM
Ewill
May 22 2018, 11:09 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deeploss of using the EU navigational systemhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might
US system is open but less than precise enough for some operations. Worse it has long been possible to jam it and although there are anti jammers out there they have their limits. The real issue is spoofing where a rogue signal is transmitted that causes a positional error which can be very very bad if a missile hits the wrong target. And again the USA system is running out of mileage as its basic encryption of the military signal is getting long in the tooth so can be broken.

Our military does need a better than GPS system. Galileo would provide such

Are you saying the Yanks are not updating their satellite system if it's so vital for their military?

If not , why not?

Well they may be but are just not telling anyone having got well caught out when the public took on GPS

And they've been rumoured to be interested in buying into Galileo
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jonksy
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
May 22 2018, 01:35 PM
Ewill
May 22 2018, 01:12 PM
Steve K
May 22 2018, 12:29 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deeploss of using the EU navigational systemhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might
Are you saying the Yanks are not updating their satellite system if it's so vital for their military?

If not , why not?

Well they may be but are just not telling anyone having got well caught out when the public took on GPS

And they've been rumoured to be interested in buying into Galileo
I would google SASSA (Satellite Self-Defense System) if I were you...Many are calling it the "Holy Grail" in GPS and defensive systems...

The United States is engaged in a diplomatic effort to promote the U.S. Global Positioning System (GPS) as a worldwide standard for precise positioning and timing information. Talks are currently underway with the European Union to ensure that Europe’s proposed navigation satellite system, Galileo, will be interoperable with GPS.

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/8673.htm
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Jonksy
May 25 2018, 10:34 PM
Steve K
May 22 2018, 01:35 PM
Ewill
May 22 2018, 01:12 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deeploss of using the EU navigational systemhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might
Well they may be but are just not telling anyone having got well caught out when the public took on GPS

And they've been rumoured to be interested in buying into Galileo
I would google SASSA (Satellite Self-Defense System) if I were you...Many are calling it the "Holy Grail" in GPS and defensive systems...

The United States is engaged in a diplomatic effort to promote the U.S. Global Positioning System (GPS) as a worldwide standard for precise positioning and timing information. Talks are currently underway with the European Union to ensure that Europe’s proposed navigation satellite system, Galileo, will be interoperable with GPS.

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/8673.htm
What's the relevance to the Galileo system which has a far simpler defence mechanism with those orbits being higher than either GPS or the Russians' Glonass system?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jonksy
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
May 25 2018, 10:41 PM
Jonksy
May 25 2018, 10:34 PM
Steve K
May 22 2018, 01:35 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deeploss of using the EU navigational systemhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might
I would google SASSA (Satellite Self-Defense System) if I were you...Many are calling it the "Holy Grail" in GPS and defensive systems...

The United States is engaged in a diplomatic effort to promote the U.S. Global Positioning System (GPS) as a worldwide standard for precise positioning and timing information. Talks are currently underway with the European Union to ensure that Europe’s proposed navigation satellite system, Galileo, will be interoperable with GPS.

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/8673.htm
What's the relevance to the Galileo system which has a far simpler defence mechanism with those orbits being higher than either GPS or the Russians' Glonass system?
There is a great deal of relevance if you read the full spec..Your Galileo system is no more than a general GPS system with very many faults as a military aid.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Jonksy
May 25 2018, 10:46 PM
Steve K
May 25 2018, 10:41 PM
Jonksy
May 25 2018, 10:34 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deeploss of using the EU navigational systemhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might as a worldwide standard for precise positioning and timing information. Talks are currently underway with the European Union to ensure that Europe’s proposed navigation satellite system, Galileo, will be interoperable with GPS.

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/8673.htm
What's the relevance to the Galileo system which has a far simpler defence mechanism with those orbits being higher than either GPS or the Russians' Glonass system?
There is a great deal of relevance if you read the full spec..Your Galileo system is no more than a general GPS system with very many faults as a military aid.
I'll happily bet you've never read the full spec as there will be some heavily classified parts of it

Your link says very little about Galileo. the big weaknesses of GPS are well known: it is readily jammable, increasingly spoofable and the USA can use a monopoly position of GPS to deny other sovereign states freedom of foreign policy.

Truth is we probably need our own system for full sovereignty but we can't easily afford such so having a choice between two is a far more affordable and effective compromise
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jonksy
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
May 25 2018, 10:52 PM
Jonksy
May 25 2018, 10:46 PM
Steve K
May 25 2018, 10:41 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deeploss of using the EU navigational systemhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might as a worldwide standard for precise positioning and timing information. Talks are currently underway with the European Union to ensure that Europe’s proposed navigation satellite system, Galileo, will be interoperable with GPS.

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/8673.htm
There is a great deal of relevance if you read the full spec..Your Galileo system is no more than a general GPS system with very many faults as a military aid.
I'll happily bet you've never read the full spec as there will be some heavily classified parts of it

Your link says very little about Galileo. the big weaknesses of GPS are well known: it is readily jammable, increasingly spoofable and the USA can use a monopoly position of GPS to deny other sovereign states freedom of foreign policy.

Truth is we probably need our own system for full sovereignty but we can't easily afford such so having a choice between two is a far more affordable and effective compromise
But I do know the majority of the full spec as I am in a privileged position with my work to obtain them. Of course I cannot divulge the entire content as it comes under the USA's official secrets act but believe me it streets ahead of any other military grade of GPS and guidance and defence systems.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Jonksy
May 25 2018, 10:59 PM
Steve K
May 25 2018, 10:52 PM
Jonksy
May 25 2018, 10:46 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deeploss of using the EU navigational systemhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might as a worldwide standard for precise positioning and timing information. Talks are currently underway with the European Union to ensure that Europe’s proposed navigation satellite system, Galileo, will be interoperable with GPS.

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/8673.htm
I'll happily bet you've never read the full spec as there will be some heavily classified parts of it

Your link says very little about Galileo. the big weaknesses of GPS are well known: it is readily jammable, increasingly spoofable and the USA can use a monopoly position of GPS to deny other sovereign states freedom of foreign policy.

Truth is we probably need our own system for full sovereignty but we can't easily afford such so having a choice between two is a far more affordable and effective compromise
But I do know the majority of the full spec as I am in a privileged position with my work to obtain them. Of course I cannot divulge the entire content as it comes under the USA's official secrets act but believe me it streets ahead of any other military grade of GPS and guidance and defence systems.
Interesting that you say "USA official secrets Act" Did you really mean that?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
:POO:

This Galileo discussion needs its own thread IMHO. Any views on breaking it out as such?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jonksy
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
May 25 2018, 11:02 PM
Jonksy
May 25 2018, 10:59 PM
Steve K
May 25 2018, 10:52 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deeploss of using the EU navigational systemhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system.

Those condition words again ....may and might as a worldwide standard for precise positioning and timing information. Talks are currently underway with the European Union to ensure that Europe’s proposed navigation satellite system, Galileo, will be interoperable with GPS.

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/8673.htm
But I do know the majority of the full spec as I am in a privileged position with my work to obtain them. Of course I cannot divulge the entire content as it comes under the USA's official secrets act but believe me it streets ahead of any other military grade of GPS and guidance and defence systems.
Interesting that you say "USA official secrets Act" Did you really mean that?
Their equivalent ie The Defense Secrets Act of 1911 and of course the much later Espionage Act.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rich
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
C-too
May 15 2018, 08:56 AM
Affa
Mar 1 2018, 09:27 AM
Steve K
Feb 27 2018, 10:33 PM
. I agree the fall in the last 18 months is much to do with the £,

As I understand it our EU contributions are declared and paid as euros.
Sterling payments are therefor another 18% higher now.
Who knows, that Bus figure may yet turn out to be true ......... :rubchin:
There are things like farm subsidies to be taken into account, plus the likelihood of the loss of using the EU navigational system. It has already been estimated that to produce our own system would cost between £3 billion to £5billion. We will also lose the EU input into our research and development programme. How much might it cost to lure nurses and doctors into the NHS. How much will trading around the world increase the costs of imports and reduce the income from exports.

I don't doubt there are many more costs that will have to be covered, all dependent upon the UK successfully finding new trade deals.

You all seem to forget what the EU will lose if they choose to denigrate and isolate the UK in pursuit of ideology, the UK does not take kindly to being dictated to by unelected (by the UK voting electorate) faceless Beaurocrats in Brussels.

Goodwill in negotiations SHOULD work in both directions, obviously that is not happening, I would think that a very real threat of a no deal exit would sharpen the minds of Barnier et al.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Jonksy
May 25 2018, 11:07 PM
Steve K
May 25 2018, 11:02 PM
Jonksy
May 25 2018, 10:59 PM

Interesting that you say "USA official secrets Act" Did you really mean that?
Their equivalent ie The Defense Secrets Act of 1911 and of course the much later Espionage Act.
And there's the ITAR and related regulations. I used to secure wipe my PC every time I set off for the airport to leave the USA

I've no doubt that the USA hasn't just sat on its hands for decades and not developed their GPS capability in various ways. But then I never believed that "we will never turn Selective Access back on again ever" promise by them. Harsh truth is if we want sovereignty in military action then we have to have our own satellite system. The next best option is having access to mil grade positioning from two independent systems. And the way we're going we're losing that
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · Europe · Next Topic »
Add Reply