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| The Pros and Cons of Brexit and Remain; an attempt at objectivity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| Topic Started: Feb 26 2018, 09:09 AM (638 Views) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve K | Feb 26 2018, 09:09 AM Post #1 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Once and future cynic
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This is an attempt to objectively lay out the relative pluses of Leaving or Remain and the obvious counter arguments (but not the counter counter or counter counter counter arguments) As fairly as I can I've laid out: - Reasons to leave the EU - Reasons to Remain - Specious/False reasons to Leave - Specious False reasons to Remain The idea is the OP gets updated with serious omissions and error corrections but discussions about the personalities involved or negotiations stay in their relevant threads. So comments please
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| Affa | Mar 1 2018, 09:27 AM Post #41 |
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Senior Member
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As I understand it our EU contributions are declared and paid as euros. Sterling payments are therefor another 18% higher now. Who knows, that Bus figure may yet turn out to be true .........
Edited by Affa, Mar 1 2018, 09:30 AM.
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| Rich | May 10 2018, 07:36 PM Post #42 |
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Senior Member
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Well, I listened to the following report from Mark Mardell (I thought he was our USA correspepondent) regarding our so called "love affair with the EU. I found it to be a very interesting precis of events so far, obviously one can draw different conclusions depending upon where one stands on the situation and we all know my stance. Have a listen if you are so inclined to remind yourself of what has gone before if you so wish. it begins at 21 minutes in. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b1p5km#play |
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| C-too | May 15 2018, 08:56 AM Post #43 |
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Honourable Member
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There are things like farm subsidies to be taken into account, plus the likelihood of the loss of using the EU navigational system. It has already been estimated that to produce our own system would cost between £3 billion to £5billion. We will also lose the EU input into our research and development programme. How much might it cost to lure nurses and doctors into the NHS. How much will trading around the world increase the costs of imports and reduce the income from exports. I don't doubt there are many more costs that will have to be covered, all dependent upon the UK successfully finding new trade deals. |
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| Ewill | May 21 2018, 05:59 PM Post #44 |
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Senior Member
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loss of using the EU navigational system Eh? What on earth are you prattling about now?????????????????????? Marine navigation is subjected to SOLAS requirements which are global not EU legislation http://solasv.mcga.gov.uk/Regulations/regulation19.htm#214 http://solasv.mcga.gov.uk/ |
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| papasmurf | May 21 2018, 06:27 PM Post #45 |
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Senior Member
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It has been a big news item over the last few weeks:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475 https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/27/brexit-europe-uk-galileo-gps-satellites/ |
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| Steve K | May 21 2018, 06:52 PM Post #46 |
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Once and future cynic
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Yes very surprising. This could cost us the best part of £10B + ongoing costs unless we come to some sort of deal with the EU on it as otherwise we have a huge hole in our future defence capability What's that word again? Pyrrhic |
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| papasmurf | May 21 2018, 07:08 PM Post #47 |
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Senior Member
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Quite. Yet another problem:- http://www.hebrides-news.com/fishing-crew-shortage-24418.html Home Office ‘hostile campaign’ damaging west coast fishing industry 24 April 2018 Isles MP Angus Brendan MacNeil is calling on fishing interests to lobby the UK Government in light of the fallout from the Home Office’s hostile campaign. Mr MacNeil is particularly focussing on The Secretary of State for DEFRA Michael Gove, The Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell, Scotland Office Minister Lord Duncan and the Home Office, who need to take action on the crew shortage in the west coast of Scotland fishing industry and allow non EEA crew to come to work here. |
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| Ewill | May 22 2018, 10:13 AM Post #48 |
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Senior Member
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Right... I read the post as being relevant to marine navigation , marine navigation has bugger all to do with the Galileo satellite system The letter in your link refers to In a letter to the UK government, Europe said that UK businesses may no longer be able to bid on the project and the UK military might not be able to use the system. Those condition words again ....may and might , possibilities not definites |
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| Steve K | May 22 2018, 10:27 AM Post #49 |
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Once and future cynic
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The problem is if we need to go to a war in 2025 that the bulk of the EU-27 disapprove of we can't use the military grade Galileo system and with the increasing hackability of GPS and jammability of the open systems that would give us a lot of difficulty. Positioning you and your supporting forces is key in fighting. In the EU we could veto such a block. Seems leaving the EU actually loses us the ability to take sovereign action. How ironic And how much to get our own military grade system: £10B and rising |
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| Ewill | May 22 2018, 11:09 AM Post #50 |
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Senior Member
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So 'we' have never had ''our'' own system and have always used the USA systems , the EU wants an E~U system as well and ''we'' have put about a billion in the pot? ''We'' can continue to use the proven US systems if the EU decides to exclude UK access (which it hasn't done thus far) Edited by Ewill, May 22 2018, 11:09 AM.
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| Steve K | May 22 2018, 12:29 PM Post #51 |
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Once and future cynic
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US system is open but less than precise enough for some operations. Worse it has long been possible to jam it and although there are anti jammers out there they have their limits. The real issue is spoofing where a rogue signal is transmitted that causes a positional error which can be very very bad if a missile hits the wrong target. And again the USA system is running out of mileage as its basic encryption of the military signal is getting long in the tooth so can be broken. Our military does need a better than GPS system. Galileo would provide such |
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| Ewill | May 22 2018, 01:12 PM Post #52 |
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Senior Member
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Are you saying the Yanks are not updating their satellite system if it's so vital for their military? If not , why not? |
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| Steve K | May 22 2018, 01:35 PM Post #53 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well they may be but are just not telling anyone having got well caught out when the public took on GPS And they've been rumoured to be interested in buying into Galileo |
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| Jonksy | May 25 2018, 10:34 PM Post #54 |
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Senior Member
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I would google SASSA (Satellite Self-Defense System) if I were you...Many are calling it the "Holy Grail" in GPS and defensive systems... The United States is engaged in a diplomatic effort to promote the U.S. Global Positioning System (GPS) as a worldwide standard for precise positioning and timing information. Talks are currently underway with the European Union to ensure that Europe’s proposed navigation satellite system, Galileo, will be interoperable with GPS. https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/8673.htm |
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| Steve K | May 25 2018, 10:41 PM Post #55 |
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Once and future cynic
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What's the relevance to the Galileo system which has a far simpler defence mechanism with those orbits being higher than either GPS or the Russians' Glonass system? |
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| Jonksy | May 25 2018, 10:46 PM Post #56 |
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Senior Member
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There is a great deal of relevance if you read the full spec..Your Galileo system is no more than a general GPS system with very many faults as a military aid. |
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| Steve K | May 25 2018, 10:52 PM Post #57 |
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Once and future cynic
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I'll happily bet you've never read the full spec as there will be some heavily classified parts of it Your link says very little about Galileo. the big weaknesses of GPS are well known: it is readily jammable, increasingly spoofable and the USA can use a monopoly position of GPS to deny other sovereign states freedom of foreign policy. Truth is we probably need our own system for full sovereignty but we can't easily afford such so having a choice between two is a far more affordable and effective compromise |
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| Jonksy | May 25 2018, 10:59 PM Post #58 |
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Senior Member
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But I do know the majority of the full spec as I am in a privileged position with my work to obtain them. Of course I cannot divulge the entire content as it comes under the USA's official secrets act but believe me it streets ahead of any other military grade of GPS and guidance and defence systems. |
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| Steve K | May 25 2018, 11:02 PM Post #59 |
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Once and future cynic
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Interesting that you say "USA official secrets Act" Did you really mean that? |
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| Steve K | May 25 2018, 11:03 PM Post #60 |
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Once and future cynic
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This Galileo discussion needs its own thread IMHO. Any views on breaking it out as such? |
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| Jonksy | May 25 2018, 11:07 PM Post #61 |
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Senior Member
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Their equivalent ie The Defense Secrets Act of 1911 and of course the much later Espionage Act. |
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| Rich | May 25 2018, 11:10 PM Post #62 |
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Senior Member
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You all seem to forget what the EU will lose if they choose to denigrate and isolate the UK in pursuit of ideology, the UK does not take kindly to being dictated to by unelected (by the UK voting electorate) faceless Beaurocrats in Brussels. Goodwill in negotiations SHOULD work in both directions, obviously that is not happening, I would think that a very real threat of a no deal exit would sharpen the minds of Barnier et al. |
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| Steve K | May 26 2018, 08:43 AM Post #63 |
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Once and future cynic
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And there's the ITAR and related regulations. I used to secure wipe my PC every time I set off for the airport to leave the USA I've no doubt that the USA hasn't just sat on its hands for decades and not developed their GPS capability in various ways. But then I never believed that "we will never turn Selective Access back on again ever" promise by them. Harsh truth is if we want sovereignty in military action then we have to have our own satellite system. The next best option is having access to mil grade positioning from two independent systems. And the way we're going we're losing that |
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2:14 PM Jul 11