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Multicultrism; Why is it not working to government plans ?
Topic Started: Apr 10 2018, 08:38 PM (1,163 Views)
gus
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Topic i originally posted on UK Debate 1, as the years have past since that post i see that my predictions have come true, at the time of my original posting i talked about those that did not wish to intergrate, with several ethnic community's refusing to intergrate, this has now grown to large towns, is it right that we should still invite those to our country that refuse to be part of the governments multicultreal society but choose those that are more compatible to Western living/ ideals and most of all, A Work Ethic, putting back into a system that has helped them...
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Happy Hornet
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Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 07:20 AM
My answer was this PV

"Not only does it subjugate ...but what it does, is render the women untouchable and holier than everyone else....... whilst the rest of us, just going about our ordinary lives are seen by the men of that order.... as slags."
That's your interpretation of it, but as PV says, neither you nor anybody else has the right to go through life being unoffended.

I find organisations like For Britain and the BNP offensive and contrary to the values of this country. Would you ban them?
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C-too
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Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 07:10 AM
Quote:
 
free to do as they choose, regardless of how offensive you or anyone else finds it.

Women enjoy a lot of freedoms in this country that are not available in other parts of the World.

In certain parts of Afghanistan.... women have to stay in their houses and only go out in a burka because it the one thing that prevents them getting raped.
Girls aren't allowed to go to School at all.
That's how bad the unfettered patriarchal society mind-set can get.
Its how it was here a couple of centuries ago..... when being female meant marrying well.... because you had no money of your own .... or consigning yourself to a life of subservient drudgery at the behest of another person.

In Western countries women have been making progress. Its not perfect but it has been fought over ..... long and hard.

So yes......... I will call out anything I think has a shadow of subjugation.

Why on earth are women dressed head to to in black cloth ... whilst men aren't?
What part of "ridiculous" is so hard to understand?
IMO females are on the point of gaining ascendancy in society, and unless males wake up to the advantages that females have, and begin to find ways of leveling the playing fields, they will get left behind.
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Happy Hornet
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C-too
May 7 2018, 07:26 AM
Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 07:10 AM
Quote:
 
free to do as they choose, regardless of how offensive you or anyone else finds it.

Women enjoy a lot of freedoms in this country that are not available in other parts of the World.

In certain parts of Afghanistan.... women have to stay in their houses and only go out in a burka because it the one thing that prevents them getting raped.
Girls aren't allowed to go to School at all.
That's how bad the unfettered patriarchal society mind-set can get.
Its how it was here a couple of centuries ago..... when being female meant marrying well.... because you had no money of your own .... or consigning yourself to a life of subservient drudgery at the behest of another person.

In Western countries women have been making progress. Its not perfect but it has been fought over ..... long and hard.

So yes......... I will call out anything I think has a shadow of subjugation.

Why on earth are women dressed head to to in black cloth ... whilst men aren't?
What part of "ridiculous" is so hard to understand?
IMO females are on the point of gaining ascendancy in society, and unless males wake up to the advantages that females have, and begin to find ways of leveling the playing fields, they will get left behind.
Yes that explains why women get paid more and occupy most of the top positions in our society.

Oh no wait........
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Jessamy Bride
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Quote:
 
Dictating what women can and can't wear or what they can and can't learn about is subjugation.


Head to toe in black cloth?

Whilst the men aren't required to wear this.

Whatever branch of religious instruction lead anyone to believe that its ok......
Its not ok because it means women are being treated differently........ and they are being treated as less.


Doesn't that strike you as being a bit ...... unequal?
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Happy Hornet
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Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 07:28 AM
Quote:
 
Dictating what women can and can't wear or what they can and can't learn about is subjugation.


Head to toe in black cloth?

Whilst the men aren't required to wear this.

Whatever branch of religious instruction lead anyone to believe that its ok......
Its not ok because it means women are being treated differently........ and they are being treated as less.


Doesn't that strike you as being a bit ...... unequal?
Lot's of people and organisations advocate inequality.

Do we ban them all?


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Jessamy Bride
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Its not good enough to say "well women have chosen to do it"

For many there are pressures from their family and/or husband ... and there isn't a free choice.
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Jessamy Bride
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Quote:
 
Do we ban them all?

Yes if they are promoting inequality ... that's not something that is ensconced in law.
They need to adapt to the modern World........ or face the consequences.

Quote:
 
Yes that explains why women get paid more and occupy most of the top positions in our society.

Oh no wait........


A hundred years...... and still a long way to go
Edited by Jessamy Bride, May 7 2018, 07:37 AM.
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Happy Hornet
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Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 07:32 AM
Its not good enough to say "well women have chosen to do it"

For many there are pressures from their family and/or husband ... and there isn't a free choice.
And some non-muslim women dress conservatively not out of choice but because of pressure from controlling men.

Shall we force all women to wear mini skirts?
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Happy Hornet
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Do we ban them all?
Quote:
 

Yes if they are promoting inequality ... that's not something that is ensconced in law.
They need to adapt to the modern World........ or face the consequences.
[/quote]So you would ban organisations like the BNP?

What about politicians who oppose gay marriage?
Edited by Happy Hornet, May 7 2018, 07:43 AM.
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Jessamy Bride
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They are banned aren't they?
Whatever, they are not very popular.... Too much prejudice for the stomach of ordinary British citizens.

We can make this multiculturalism work ... but not by importing ideologies that don't fit our narrative.
We should all be embracing what it is to live in a modern country...... and making sure we all get the rights and freedoms that we are entitled to.... and deserve.
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Happy Hornet
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Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 07:50 AM
They are banned aren't they?
Whatever, they are not very popular.... Too much prejudice for the stomach of ordinary British citizens.

We can make this multiculturalism work ... but not by importing ideologies that don't fit our narrative.
We should all be embracing what it is to live in a modern country...... and making sure we all get the rights and freedoms that we are entitled to.... and deserve.
No they aren't banned and neither is Jacob Rees-Mogg who opposes gay marriage.

If you criminalise everyone who opposes equality you are going to have to build a lot more prisons and it won't just be Muslims occupying them.

Beware the law of unforseen consequences.
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Steve K
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Happy Hornet
May 7 2018, 07:31 AM
Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 07:28 AM
Quote:
 
Dictating what women can and can't wear or what they can and can't learn about is subjugation.


Head to toe in black cloth?

Whilst the men aren't required to wear this.

Whatever branch of religious instruction lead anyone to believe that its ok......
Its not ok because it means women are being treated differently........ and they are being treated as less.


Doesn't that strike you as being a bit ...... unequal?
Lot's of people and organisations advocate inequality.

Do we ban them all?


No

But we shouldn't allow them tax free charitable status, we shouldn't allow them to push their oppressive messages onto children, we shouldn't allow them to import priests and we shouldn't allow them stunning legal immunity when oppression is being applied


But seems I'm going to be much shat upon man in the middle again as I also object to Jessamy's wish to oppress women by defining they mustn't wear too much.
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Happy Hornet
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Steve K
May 7 2018, 08:32 AM
Happy Hornet
May 7 2018, 07:31 AM
Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 07:28 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Lot's of people and organisations advocate inequality.

Do we ban them all?


No

we shouldn't allow them to push their oppressive messages onto children
This is arguably the root cause of most if not all bigotry.

But how do you police it?

And who decides what is and isn't oppressive?
Edited by Happy Hornet, May 7 2018, 08:43 AM.
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Pro Veritas
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Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 07:20 AM
My answer was this PV

"Not only does it subjugate ...
But it doesn't IF they freely choose to wear it.


In fact IF they freely choose to wear it YOU are the subjugator for telling them they can't.


All The Best
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Pro Veritas
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Steve K
May 7 2018, 08:32 AM
No

But we shouldn't allow them tax free charitable status, we shouldn't allow them to push their oppressive messages onto children, we shouldn't allow them to import priests and we shouldn't allow them stunning legal immunity when oppression is being applied
Agree 100%.


All The Best
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Pro Veritas
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C-too
May 7 2018, 07:21 AM
I would only add that if a female during her childhood is led to own the emotional belief that she should wear the Burka, then many of them will as adults choose to were it.

IMO that is not necessarily freedom of choice. I find it difficult to believe that many females, knowing from early childhood that they had complete freedom of choice about wearing it, would choose to wear it.
Interesting points, but surely one could argue that about anything at all.

Are racists that way because they were led to own the emotional beliefs that underpin racism?
Are misogynists?
Are psychiatrists?
Are chronic underachievers? (Me for reference).

You could argue we are all products of whatever upbringing it is we had; but the fact that so many people manage to break that mold implies that the influence is nowhere near absolute.


Would the racist choose to be racist had he/she not been conditioned to be so?

Well, the truth is; yes, some would willingly choose that.

The same must also be true of wearing the burkha.

But above all, we must accept that no one, ever, in the history of human kind has ever grown up and formed their world view in complete neutral isolation.


All The Best
Edited by Pro Veritas, May 7 2018, 08:58 AM.
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Happy Hornet
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Pro Veritas
May 7 2018, 08:52 AM
C-too
May 7 2018, 07:21 AM
I would only add that if a female during her childhood is led to own the emotional belief that she should wear the Burka, then many of them will as adults choose to were it.

IMO that is not necessarily freedom of choice. I find it difficult to believe that many females, knowing from early childhood that they had complete freedom of choice about wearing it, would choose to wear it.
Interesting points, but surely one could argue that about anything at all.

Are racists that way because they were led to own the emotional beliefs that underpin racism?
Are misogynists?
Are psychiatrists?
Are chronic underachievers? (Me for reference).

You could argue we are all products of whatever upbringing it is we had; but the fact that so many people manage to break that mold implies that the influence is nowhere near absolute.


Would the racist choose to be racist had he/she not been conditioned to be so?

Well, the truth is; yes, some would willingly choose that.

The same must also be true of wearing the burkha.

But above all, we must accept that no one, ever, in the history of human kind has ever grown up and formed their world view in complete neutral isolation.


All The Best
A very interesting post.

It's true that people can and do form views that are very different to their parents, I'm sure we all know someone who compared to their mum or dad are like chalk and cheese.

But as you say, nobody grows up in a vacuum, our views are shaped by our experiences, many of which are beyond our control.

It's also often the case that ramming a certain viewpoint down a kid's throat can have the opposite of the desired effect and make the kid rebel against it.

A mate of mine's mum sent him and his sister to Catholic school to immunise them against religion. It worked.
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Jessamy Bride
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If we want to live in a free and fair society ... (and that is one of the attractions of living here)
we are going to have to call out those things that don't promote our values of equality ... however painful that may be.
Its the way we maintain our standards and build on them to promote fairness to all our citizens.

I'm obviously concerned about women's rights because it a concern I have encountered all my life.... other people may be concerned with disability, gay, racial or anything they can project an insight in to.... to shape perceptions and make it a fairer place.

What worries me about this School........ is that in some countries the education of girls is seen as revolutionary and they should be encouraged
but here........ all kids are offered a free education, designed and tested to make sure that they make the most of their lives in Britain.... regardless of gender.
Its exactly what we want to promote ... we don't need anyone promoting something which is less equal.

Quote:
 

But as you say, nobody grows up in a vacuum, our views are shaped by our experiences, many of which are beyond our control


Thats true.... So lets make sure that the influences are the right ones for this culture and society.
The less differences we have the more comfortable we will feel with each other.
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Jessamy Bride
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My mother (one of four girls) ... didn't think she could be anything other than a housewife reliant on her husband for her life.
I didn't have those perceptions..... and blazed a trail in our family. My daughters are living their lives to the full as well... and have great careers.
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Happy Hornet
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Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 10:30 AM
If we want to live in a free and fair society ... (and that is one of the attractions of living here)
we are going to have to call out those things that don't promote our values of equality ... however painful that may be.
Its the way we maintain our standards and build on them to promote fairness to all our citizens.

I'm obviously concerned about women's rights because it a concern I have encountered all my life.... other people may be concerned with disability, gay, racial or anything they can project an insight in to.... to shape perceptions and make it a fairer place.

What worries me about this School........ is that in some countries the education of girls is seen as revolutionary and they should be encouraged
but here........ all kids are offered a free education, designed and tested to make sure that they make the most of their lives in Britain.... regardless of gender.
Its exactly what we want to promote ... we don't need anyone promoting something which is less equal.

Quote:
 

But as you say, nobody grows up in a vacuum, our views are shaped by our experiences, many of which are beyond our control


Thats true.... So lets make sure that the influences are the right ones for this culture and society.
The less differences we have the more comfortable we will feel with each other.
I don't doubt that your motives are honourable, but you can't take away people's choices in the name of freedom.

If you can ban this school, why can't I ban For Britain, the BNP or people like Rees-Mogg from political office?

I could go on about prejudice me and family have experienced simply for being what we are, how I've had to defend my right to live in my own country my entire life. That doesn't give me the right to criminalise the people I was arguing with.

If I have to accept people advocating inequality for me why can't you?
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Jessamy Bride
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Quote:
 
If you can ban this school, why can't I ban For Britain, the BNP or people like Rees-Mogg from political office


Do it ..... these organisations are already under fire, (with some success) .... They need challenging.
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Happy Hornet
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Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 10:52 AM
Quote:
 
If you can ban this school, why can't I ban For Britain, the BNP or people like Rees-Mogg from political office


Do it ..... these organisations are already under fire, (with some success) .... They need challenging.
And Rees-Mogg? Ban him and anyone else who opposes gay marriage from public office?

I'll admit it's tempting, but it just makes them a martyr.
Edited by Happy Hornet, May 7 2018, 10:55 AM.
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Jessamy Bride
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Yes if that's what it takes..... (or at least challenge him)
he is espousing something which is against the law.
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Happy Hornet
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Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 10:56 AM
Yes if that's what it takes..... (or at least challenge him)
he is espousing something which is against the law.
True, but so were the suffragettes.

Not that I would in any way compare the two.

The way to beat them is to win the argument and prove them wrong, in the same way that you and your daughter's are proving the mysoginists wrong.
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
May 7 2018, 07:28 AM
C-too
May 7 2018, 07:26 AM
Jessamy Bride
May 7 2018, 07:10 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
IMO females are on the point of gaining ascendancy in society, and unless males wake up to the advantages that females have, and begin to find ways of leveling the playing fields, they will get left behind.
Yes that explains why women get paid more and occupy most of the top positions in our society.

Oh no wait........
A thoughtless post, I would have expected better from you.
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C-too
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Pro Veritas
May 7 2018, 08:52 AM
C-too
May 7 2018, 07:21 AM
I would only add that if a female during her childhood is led to own the emotional belief that she should wear the Burka, then many of them will as adults choose to were it.

IMO that is not necessarily freedom of choice. I find it difficult to believe that many females, knowing from early childhood that they had complete freedom of choice about wearing it, would choose to wear it.
Interesting points, but surely one could argue that about anything at all.

Are racists that way because they were led to own the emotional beliefs that underpin racism?
Are misogynists?
Are psychiatrists?
Are chronic underachievers? (Me for reference).

You could argue we are all products of whatever upbringing it is we had; but the fact that so many people manage to break that mold implies that the influence is nowhere near absolute.

Would the racist choose to be racist had he/she not been conditioned to be so?

Well, the truth is; yes, some would willingly choose that.

The same must also be true of wearing the burkha.

But above all, we must accept that no one, ever, in the history of human kind has ever grown up and formed their world view in complete neutral isolation.

All The Best
Briefly;
Humans are designed to learn fear. Unfortunately the fear we learn is held in a non-thinking non-logical area of the mind, and is sperate from the logical thinking memory area.
That fear, especially if it is a high fear level, can be directed in various directions at a later stage such as racism, terrorism or into various criminal activity.

Fear is learnt regardless of whether or not direct or indirect pressure is placed upon a child to become somethng in the early years.

As you imply none of this is absolute. That is because each individual travels a sepparate path, no matter what the circumstances or the simmilarities to others during the early sensory learning years are.

There are at least two reasons that I am aware of that can play a part in underachieving. Probably the easiest to understand is the DOB. Any child who is born in the June to August period will start school at a disadvantage. There are early developers and late developers, the late developer in that birth group will have an extra disadvantage. This could and will in some cases, have a negative affect on the self belief that opens the doors to achievement.


Edited by C-too, May 7 2018, 07:14 PM.
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Happy Hornet
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May 8 2018, 08:10 AM
C-too
May 7 2018, 07:09 PM

There are at least two reasons that I am aware of that can play a part in underachieving. Probably the easiest to understand is the DOB. Any child who is born in the June to August period will start school at a disadvantage.
WOW, I'd honestly never considered that.

I was born very late July, my sister mid August. Even though both of us could read and write to Primary School standards when we started Play-School (as it was called then) we both struggled academically through our school years. As adult learners we have both gone on to study at degree level - she with the OU getting a BA in Education Studies (Primary) and myself getting an MA Hons in Ancient History and Archaeology.

However, we would both, I guess, still be considered as underachievers given our later educational achievements.

All The Best
I remember watching a documentary series last year about the SAS (Stay with me).

Of the former members interviewed, most seem to have one thing in common, they were all written off academically at school. You don't pass SAS selection if you're thick, you have to demonstrate an ability to think your way out of difficult situations and since leaving the regiment several of them have gained degrees, Phd's and one is now a solicitor.

It made me think of how many other bright kids have been left to slip through the cracks and what we can do to address it.
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Ewill
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Pro Veritas
Apr 30 2018, 10:02 PM
Steve K
Apr 16 2018, 07:39 AM
IIRC they can only require a specific ethnicity for serving staff (to maintain the restaurant theme for customers)
Well, surely that's complete and utter bollocks.

If it is OK for James Bond (a form of entertainment) to be black (and it IS OK IMO) then surely it is OK for the front of house staff at an "ethnic themed" restaurant (another form of entertainment) to be any and all ethnicities.

Surely what matters at a restaurant is the QUALITY of the food, not how the waiter looks or sounds?


All The Best
ames Bond (a form of entertainment) to be black (and it IS OK IMO

No , no , never 8::8

Not Idris , he's dreadful, nothing good about him , even his Sky adverts are cringeworthy /S:
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