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***Official Offseason Thread*** 2007-2008
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Topic Started: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:41 pm (5,915 Views)
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Infallable
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:39 pm
Post #311
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I don't break character until after the DVD commentary
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- yankee242B
- Dec 28 2007, 11:46 PM
- Infallable
- Dec 28 2007, 08:36 PM
- yankee242B
- Dec 28 2007, 03:16 PM
- Infallable
- Dec 28 2007, 06:57 PM
- RTT
- Dec 28 2007, 11:10 AM
Erstad is like his former teammate, David Eckstein.
Has every single intangible that you could want on a team but is missing that one crucial part of your game, the ability to play baseball.
Eckstein no. Erstad, sadly, yes after all the injuries.
Eckstein absolutely.
oh yeah, I forgot, if you don't have the greatest stats int he world then you automatically suck at baseball. You're only evidence does nothing but say that he's an average player, which isn't the same as not being able to play baseball.
That's the definition of not being able to play well. Everyone uses stats. Grow up. And Eckstein's stats have barely ever been "average." His last season was one of his best and that barely qualifies him for average, not to mention the fact that he was injured for a large part of the season. How am I being closed-minded (assuming you're referring to me)? I actually am willing to use something other than batting average, fielding percentage and RsBI to determine a player's worth/value. Many people are not -- that's the definition of being closed-minded. Now, if you have some problem with the way I evaluate players, fine, that doesn't automatically mean I'm wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong either. But if you look at the bulk of Eckstein's career (or anyone else's for that matter) using other means for measurement you'll get a better idea of what they actually bring to the table. Saying there is such a thing as "grit," "hustle," or "scrappiness" is just sports writers having fun or trying to say a guy isn't good in a nice way. I'm serious. When a coach tells me that his player plays hard every play or has real heart instead of answering a question about his skill, that tells me (and the reader) something -- it means he tries hard but is not the coach's (or anyone else's) first choice.
You're being closed-minded because you're stuck in your annoying little box that says that you should judge everyone on the same statistical scale.
Furthermore, the statistical scale you want to use (OPS and OBP) even say that Eckstein is an offensive upgrade on the team he signed with (Blue Jays). Yet you insists on spewing your biased bullshit about how much he sucks and can't play baseball. You're ridiculous.
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sportslover
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:48 pm
Post #312
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- Infallable
- Dec 29 2007, 02:39 PM
- yankee242B
- Dec 28 2007, 11:46 PM
- Infallable
- Dec 28 2007, 08:36 PM
- yankee242B
- Dec 28 2007, 03:16 PM
- Infallable
- Dec 28 2007, 06:57 PM
- RTT
- Dec 28 2007, 11:10 AM
Erstad is like his former teammate, David Eckstein.
Has every single intangible that you could want on a team but is missing that one crucial part of your game, the ability to play baseball.
Eckstein no. Erstad, sadly, yes after all the injuries.
Eckstein absolutely.
oh yeah, I forgot, if you don't have the greatest stats int he world then you automatically suck at baseball. You're only evidence does nothing but say that he's an average player, which isn't the same as not being able to play baseball.
That's the definition of not being able to play well. Everyone uses stats. Grow up. And Eckstein's stats have barely ever been "average." His last season was one of his best and that barely qualifies him for average, not to mention the fact that he was injured for a large part of the season. How am I being closed-minded (assuming you're referring to me)? I actually am willing to use something other than batting average, fielding percentage and RsBI to determine a player's worth/value. Many people are not -- that's the definition of being closed-minded. Now, if you have some problem with the way I evaluate players, fine, that doesn't automatically mean I'm wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong either. But if you look at the bulk of Eckstein's career (or anyone else's for that matter) using other means for measurement you'll get a better idea of what they actually bring to the table. Saying there is such a thing as "grit," "hustle," or "scrappiness" is just sports writers having fun or trying to say a guy isn't good in a nice way. I'm serious. When a coach tells me that his player plays hard every play or has real heart instead of answering a question about his skill, that tells me (and the reader) something -- it means he tries hard but is not the coach's (or anyone else's) first choice.
You're being closed-minded because you're stuck in your annoying little box that says that you should judge everyone on the same statistical scale. Furthermore, the statistical scale you want to use (OPS and OBP) even say that Eckstein is an offensive upgrade on the team he signed with (Blue Jays). Yet you insists on spewing your biased bullshit about how much he sucks and can't play baseball. You're ridiculous.
We mentioned OPS. You said that's incorrect because he has no power. Chill pulled up his OBP, which isn't impressive at all, especially since has no 'pop', power, whatever.
What should we judge him by? Something that ignores slugging % and OBP and focuses on the little things Ecks does(no pun)?
I'm not sure why we should judge players on different scales, as if they all had different goals....
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Infallable
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:54 pm
Post #313
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I don't break character until after the DVD commentary
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- Hyltzn
- Dec 29 2007, 09:48 AM
- Infallable
- Dec 29 2007, 02:39 PM
- yankee242B
- Dec 28 2007, 11:46 PM
- Infallable
- Dec 28 2007, 08:36 PM
- yankee242B
- Dec 28 2007, 03:16 PM
- Infallable
- Dec 28 2007, 06:57 PM
- RTT
- Dec 28 2007, 11:10 AM
Erstad is like his former teammate, David Eckstein.
Has every single intangible that you could want on a team but is missing that one crucial part of your game, the ability to play baseball.
Eckstein no. Erstad, sadly, yes after all the injuries.
Eckstein absolutely.
oh yeah, I forgot, if you don't have the greatest stats int he world then you automatically suck at baseball. You're only evidence does nothing but say that he's an average player, which isn't the same as not being able to play baseball.
That's the definition of not being able to play well. Everyone uses stats. Grow up. And Eckstein's stats have barely ever been "average." His last season was one of his best and that barely qualifies him for average, not to mention the fact that he was injured for a large part of the season. How am I being closed-minded (assuming you're referring to me)? I actually am willing to use something other than batting average, fielding percentage and RsBI to determine a player's worth/value. Many people are not -- that's the definition of being closed-minded. Now, if you have some problem with the way I evaluate players, fine, that doesn't automatically mean I'm wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong either. But if you look at the bulk of Eckstein's career (or anyone else's for that matter) using other means for measurement you'll get a better idea of what they actually bring to the table. Saying there is such a thing as "grit," "hustle," or "scrappiness" is just sports writers having fun or trying to say a guy isn't good in a nice way. I'm serious. When a coach tells me that his player plays hard every play or has real heart instead of answering a question about his skill, that tells me (and the reader) something -- it means he tries hard but is not the coach's (or anyone else's) first choice.
You're being closed-minded because you're stuck in your annoying little box that says that you should judge everyone on the same statistical scale. Furthermore, the statistical scale you want to use (OPS and OBP) even say that Eckstein is an offensive upgrade on the team he signed with (Blue Jays). Yet you insists on spewing your biased bullshit about how much he sucks and can't play baseball. You're ridiculous.
We mentioned OPS. You said that's incorrect because he has no power. Chill pulled up his OBP, which isn't impressive at all, especially since has no 'pop', power, whatever. What should we judge him by? Something that ignores slugging % and OBP and focuses on the little things Ecks does(no pun)? I'm not sure why we should judge players on different scales, as if they all had different goals....
He gets hits, doesn't strike out, works counts, and gets on base (.351 OBP is nto bad, and I showed you why it wasn't bad in the other thread).
Combine that with the other things he does well that don't show up in the box score and that turns into a pretty good baseball player.
You don't need stars at every spot on the diamond. At a spot, there's nothing wrong with sacrificing some of your standardized interpretation of "Production" for a guy who does other things right. He plays shortstop anyway. Thirty years ago you'd have a .240 hitter on 85% of the teams in the league at that position.
You've also done nothing to refute the fact that using your own logic he's an offensive upgrade for the Blue Jays, which is where this whole argument started.
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sportslover
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:15 pm
Post #314
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- Infallable
- Dec 29 2007, 02:54 PM
- Hyltzn
- Dec 29 2007, 09:48 AM
- Infallable
- Dec 29 2007, 02:39 PM
- yankee242B
- Dec 28 2007, 11:46 PM
- Infallable
- Dec 28 2007, 08:36 PM
- yankee242B
- Dec 28 2007, 03:16 PM
- Infallable
- Dec 28 2007, 06:57 PM
- RTT
- Dec 28 2007, 11:10 AM
Erstad is like his former teammate, David Eckstein.
Has every single intangible that you could want on a team but is missing that one crucial part of your game, the ability to play baseball.
Eckstein no. Erstad, sadly, yes after all the injuries.
Eckstein absolutely.
oh yeah, I forgot, if you don't have the greatest stats int he world then you automatically suck at baseball. You're only evidence does nothing but say that he's an average player, which isn't the same as not being able to play baseball.
That's the definition of not being able to play well. Everyone uses stats. Grow up. And Eckstein's stats have barely ever been "average." His last season was one of his best and that barely qualifies him for average, not to mention the fact that he was injured for a large part of the season. How am I being closed-minded (assuming you're referring to me)? I actually am willing to use something other than batting average, fielding percentage and RsBI to determine a player's worth/value. Many people are not -- that's the definition of being closed-minded. Now, if you have some problem with the way I evaluate players, fine, that doesn't automatically mean I'm wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong either. But if you look at the bulk of Eckstein's career (or anyone else's for that matter) using other means for measurement you'll get a better idea of what they actually bring to the table. Saying there is such a thing as "grit," "hustle," or "scrappiness" is just sports writers having fun or trying to say a guy isn't good in a nice way. I'm serious. When a coach tells me that his player plays hard every play or has real heart instead of answering a question about his skill, that tells me (and the reader) something -- it means he tries hard but is not the coach's (or anyone else's) first choice.
You're being closed-minded because you're stuck in your annoying little box that says that you should judge everyone on the same statistical scale. Furthermore, the statistical scale you want to use (OPS and OBP) even say that Eckstein is an offensive upgrade on the team he signed with (Blue Jays). Yet you insists on spewing your biased bullshit about how much he sucks and can't play baseball. You're ridiculous.
We mentioned OPS. You said that's incorrect because he has no power. Chill pulled up his OBP, which isn't impressive at all, especially since has no 'pop', power, whatever. What should we judge him by? Something that ignores slugging % and OBP and focuses on the little things Ecks does(no pun)? I'm not sure why we should judge players on different scales, as if they all had different goals....
He gets hits, doesn't strike out, works counts, and gets on base (.351 OBP is nto bad, and I showed you why it wasn't bad in the other thread). Combine that with the other things he does well that don't show up in the box score and that turns into a pretty good baseball player. You don't need stars at every spot on the diamond. At a spot, there's nothing wrong with sacrificing some of your standardized interpretation of "Production" for a guy who does other things right. He plays shortstop anyway. Thirty years ago you'd have a .240 hitter on 85% of the teams in the league at that position. You've also done nothing to refute the fact that using your own logic he's an offensive upgrade for the Blue Jays, which is where this whole argument started.
He doesn't walk. He has no power. His OBP is only 15 points above the major league average(AND HE'S A LEADOFF MAN). I do applaud that he works counts, though. Sweet.
What exactly are those things he does that don't show up at the box scores? Are they really enough to earn him a major league starting position? I'm sure Eckstein is a really nice guy, but I know a lot of nice people, and very few of them are praised daily by fans and sportswriters like this 'X-Factor' is(And make millions).
The game has evolved as to where offensive production is required everywhere. You can't compare two completely different offensive environments like that. What does 30 years ago have to do with what we're talking about? Absolutely nothing.
Yes, he's an offensive upgrade at SS. Whatever.
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JoeCoolMan24
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:17 pm
Post #315
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I got Alicia Sacramone
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Eckstein is NOT a good baseball player. Plain and simple.
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RTT
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:21 pm
Post #316
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Throw Your Diamonds In The Air`!
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Look, I was an Angels fan for a long time, I followed Eck's career for a long time. Back when he was on the Boston circuit to the times in Anaheim with players such as Shawn Wooten and to being in St. Louis.
Now I'll be honest, I was exaggerating when I said he couldn't play baseball, if you're in the majors, you can at least play a little bit. Well unless you're Neifi Perez.. But that's another story.
What gets me is that he's seen as this great player but no one can ever really back-up his stats. He's just not that good and he's NOWHERE close to what most people say he is. He's an 8th or 9th spot hitter.
Without his intangibles, he's not even a Major Leaguer IMO. And who have we heard that he even has this so called intangibles?
The same people who say he's an All-Star. <_<
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Infallable
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:26 pm
Post #317
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I don't break character until after the DVD commentary
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Out of the box score, he handles the bat, moves runners over, runs the bases well (not the same thing as stolen bases).
30 years ago has as much to do with Eckstein as a player as "the majority of sports writers" who praise him as an X-Factor.
I threw the first one in on a whim. The latter is a centerpiece in everything you say. They're both irrelevant to this discussion.
He's a decent player AND a good guy to have around. And best of all, he's found ways to be successful no matter what people like you say and deserves to be applauded for it.
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sportslover
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:38 pm
Post #318
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- Infallable
- Dec 29 2007, 03:26 PM
Out of the box score, he handles the bat, moves runners over, runs the bases well (not the same thing as stolen bases).
30 years ago has as much to do with Eckstein as a player as "the majority of sports writers" who praise him as an X-Factor.
I threw the first one in on a whim. The latter is a centerpiece in everything you say. They're both irrelevant to this discussion.
He's a decent player AND a good guy to have around. And best of all, he's found ways to be successful no matter what people like you say and deserves to be applauded for it.
Moving runners over(aka making outs) isn't valuable these days, when run scoring is so high and outs are so valuable. Which is why bunting has become obsolete.
How Eckstein is perceived by sportswriters and fans(A vast majority) has a lot do with Eckstein being overrated. A lot. Seriously, I was an ESPN poll asking 'who would you rather have on your team between Ecks and A-Rod', and fucking 30% answered Ecks. That's fucked up.
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Infallable
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:44 pm
Post #319
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I don't break character until after the DVD commentary
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- Hyltzn
- Dec 29 2007, 10:38 AM
- Infallable
- Dec 29 2007, 03:26 PM
Out of the box score, he handles the bat, moves runners over, runs the bases well (not the same thing as stolen bases).
30 years ago has as much to do with Eckstein as a player as "the majority of sports writers" who praise him as an X-Factor.
I threw the first one in on a whim. The latter is a centerpiece in everything you say. They're both irrelevant to this discussion.
He's a decent player AND a good guy to have around. And best of all, he's found ways to be successful no matter what people like you say and deserves to be applauded for it.
Moving runners over(aka making outs) isn't valuable these days, when run scoring is so high and outs are so valuable. Which is why bunting has become obsolete. How Eckstein is perceived by sportswriters and fans(A vast majority) has a lot do with Eckstein being overrated. A lot. Seriously, I was an ESPN poll asking 'who would you rather have on your team between Ecks and A-Rod', and fucking 30% answered Ecks. That's fucked up.
If every player who has ever been perceived by anybody to be better than he is was a completely crappy baseball player and out of the league, then the league would have about 5 teams.
The fact that media attention goes a little overboard with Eckstein doesn't make him any worse of a player. Besides, public goodwill and being a fan favorite is just another thing that he brings to whatever team he's playing for.
And for the record, ESPN polls mean as much as all-star voting.
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JoeCoolMan24
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Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:45 pm
Post #320
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I got Alicia Sacramone
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- Hyltzn
- Dec 29 2007, 03:38 PM
- Infallable
- Dec 29 2007, 03:26 PM
Out of the box score, he handles the bat, moves runners over, runs the bases well (not the same thing as stolen bases).
30 years ago has as much to do with Eckstein as a player as "the majority of sports writers" who praise him as an X-Factor.
I threw the first one in on a whim. The latter is a centerpiece in everything you say. They're both irrelevant to this discussion.
He's a decent player AND a good guy to have around. And best of all, he's found ways to be successful no matter what people like you say and deserves to be applauded for it.
Moving runners over(aka making outs) isn't valuable these days, when run scoring is so high and outs are so valuable. Which is why bunting has become obsolete. How Eckstein is perceived by sportswriters and fans(A vast majority) has a lot do with Eckstein being overrated. A lot. Seriously, I was an ESPN poll asking 'who would you rather have on your team between Ecks and A-Rod', and fucking 30% answered Ecks. That's fucked up.
I disagree. Moving runners over IS valuable. The reason the Sox were so successful in 2005 was because Podsednik would get on base, steal 2nd, (or just hit a double). Then Iguchi would wait on pitches and poke it to the 2nd baseman. Then would advance Pods to 3rd, and all Thome or Konerko had to do was hit a deep ball, and Pods would tag up and score.
Manufacturing runs. Moving runners over is a big deal if you want to manufacture runs and not just rely on the homeruns.
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