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Massive 3-team Deal; Manny to LAD, Bay to BOS, others to PIT
Topic Started: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:37 pm (896 Views)
sportslover
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yankee242B
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:08 am
I agree that the two prospects the Sox gave up weren't much to Boston (Hansen hadn't impressed enough in his chances and, like Dewon said, unless Crisp is unloaded, Moss wasn't going to get a shot anytime soon), but the point is they didn't get good value for RAMIREZ.

That's where everyone is saying the Red Sox got fleeced. For all their talk about getting fair value for Manny's offense in recent years (at least, that's what they said was the reason they didn't trade him before this season), they didn't get much for him when you look at it. They didn't get a prospect or a package. All they got was Jason Bay, who, while a fine ballplayer and better defender than Manny, would never be confused with the spacey slugger that Ramirez is/was.

Again, the talk is not about what prospects the Red Sox lost, it's about what they didn't get for Manny. (Although when you surrender prospects as well and still don't get much back, that is just plain robbed.)
I'd say the Red Sox did very well by acquiring Bay for Ramirez (ignore that that wasn't the actual deal). Not only is Bay more valuable than Manny, but he's wayyyyyy cheaper. I

I'm not even saying that the Red Sox did bad in the deal. I'd say they did pretty well. The Pirates did even better, though.
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yankee242B
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I'm a lead farmer, motherf...

Hyltzn
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:20 am
yankee242B
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:08 am
I agree that the two prospects the Sox gave up weren't much to Boston (Hansen hadn't impressed enough in his chances and, like Dewon said, unless Crisp is unloaded, Moss wasn't going to get a shot anytime soon), but the point is they didn't get good value for RAMIREZ.

That's where everyone is saying the Red Sox got fleeced. For all their talk about getting fair value for Manny's offense in recent years (at least, that's what they said was the reason they didn't trade him before this season), they didn't get much for him when you look at it. They didn't get a prospect or a package. All they got was Jason Bay, who, while a fine ballplayer and better defender than Manny, would never be confused with the spacey slugger that Ramirez is/was.

Again, the talk is not about what prospects the Red Sox lost, it's about what they didn't get for Manny. (Although when you surrender prospects as well and still don't get much back, that is just plain robbed.)
I'd say the Red Sox did very well by acquiring Bay for Ramirez (ignore that that wasn't the actual deal). Not only is Bay more valuable than Manny, but he's wayyyyyy cheaper. I

I'm not even saying that the Red Sox did bad in the deal. I'd say they did pretty well. The Pirates did even better, though.
Sorry, Jason Bay doesn't = Manny Ramirez. Not even when defense is taken into account.

Yeah, he's cheaper and Ramirez was probably going to have that option picked up (not to mention Bay is younger), but Bay is in no way the same class as Ramirez at the plate and add to the fact that they gave up two of their top prospects (maybe two that didn't fit anymore, but that's besides the point) and didn't get any in return is where the problem lies.

The Great Theo won't be winning any Exec of the Year titles with a move like this.
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Dewon
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yankee242B
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:08 am
I agree that the two prospects the Sox gave up weren't much to Boston (Hansen hadn't impressed enough in his chances and, like Dewon said, unless Crisp is unloaded, Moss wasn't going to get a shot anytime soon), but the point is they didn't get good value for RAMIREZ.

That's where everyone is saying the Red Sox got fleeced. For all their talk about getting fair value for Manny's offense in recent years (at least, that's what they said was the reason they didn't trade him before this season), they didn't get much for him when you look at it. They didn't get a prospect or a package. All they got was Jason Bay, who, while a fine ballplayer and better defender than Manny, would never be confused with the spacey slugger that Ramirez is/was.

Again, the talk is not about what prospects the Red Sox lost, it's about what they didn't get for Manny. (Although when you surrender prospects as well and still don't get much back, that is just plain robbed.)
well the sox didn't really surrender prospects of value. brandon moss was the most valuable 'prospect' in the deal and he was like another david murphy to us. what did we trade that guy for? i don't even remember. david murphy has proven to be a decent player, not anything outstanding. that's what moss looks like to this point.

and considering manny's cancerous attitude as of late, he had to go. he wasn't going to stay past this season and i'd rather have a proven all-star caliber player like bay than draft picks or a package of prospects. bay isn't going to be protection for ortiz like manny was and i can see that being a problem, but it would be a bigger disaster if we traded manny for a collection of prospects and have brandon moss or coco crisp take over left field. however, the red sox are no longer the 2007 red sox. this team doesn't need to rely on 2 guys for their offense anymore. if manny was gone for bay last year, it would've been awful. coco was starting and sucked, lugo sucked, drew sucked, tek sucked. now ellsbury is in there, drew is much better, lowrie is sneaking in and is ready to steal SS from lugo and tek still sucks but that's ok. this team is more well rounded and the offense doesn't have to come from the 3-4 spots.

i'd still rather have manny for the rest of this year, but he is the one who started this and said he wanted out. i'd rather have bay for at least a year and a half than manny for a half.
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sportslover
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yankee242B
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:24 am
Hyltzn
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:20 am
yankee242B
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:08 am
I agree that the two prospects the Sox gave up weren't much to Boston (Hansen hadn't impressed enough in his chances and, like Dewon said, unless Crisp is unloaded, Moss wasn't going to get a shot anytime soon), but the point is they didn't get good value for RAMIREZ.

That's where everyone is saying the Red Sox got fleeced. For all their talk about getting fair value for Manny's offense in recent years (at least, that's what they said was the reason they didn't trade him before this season), they didn't get much for him when you look at it. They didn't get a prospect or a package. All they got was Jason Bay, who, while a fine ballplayer and better defender than Manny, would never be confused with the spacey slugger that Ramirez is/was.

Again, the talk is not about what prospects the Red Sox lost, it's about what they didn't get for Manny. (Although when you surrender prospects as well and still don't get much back, that is just plain robbed.)
I'd say the Red Sox did very well by acquiring Bay for Ramirez (ignore that that wasn't the actual deal). Not only is Bay more valuable than Manny, but he's wayyyyyy cheaper. I

I'm not even saying that the Red Sox did bad in the deal. I'd say they did pretty well. The Pirates did even better, though.
Sorry, Jason Bay doesn't = Manny Ramirez. Not even when defense is taken into account.

Yeah, he's cheaper and Ramirez was probably going to have that option picked up (not to mention Bay is younger), but Bay is in no way the same class as Ramirez at the plate and add to the fact that they gave up two of their top prospects (maybe two that didn't fit anymore, but that's besides the point) and didn't get any in return is where the problem lies.

The Great Theo won't be winning any Exec of the Year titles with a move like this.
He's not in the same class if you still chose to believe that Manny is the same Manny he was in his peak, which he is not.

Yes, with defense, Bay is more valuable than Manny. Throw in the fact that he's cheaper and that he is under control for one more season (since the Sox were more than likely to not exercise Manny's option), and it's a very good deal for the Red Sox straight up.

Edited by sportslover, Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:33 am.
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yankee242B
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I think the real problem here is that this happened while the Sox were/are in contention for an ALE title. If the Sox were out of it, they could just deal for prospects.

But they're not out of it by any means and dealing for Bay is not a real upgrade from Manny. But, like Dewon said, Manny devalued himself (for the Sox) by basically holding Boston hostage with his attitude and threats. So, yeah, you're not going to get much for him. And that is the point I'm making: for all the talk about making sure to get true, fair value for him if they were ever to deal him, Boston didn't get a whole helluva lot here.
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yankee242B
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I'm a lead farmer, motherf...

Hyltzn
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:32 am
yankee242B
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:24 am
Hyltzn
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:20 am
yankee242B
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:08 am
I agree that the two prospects the Sox gave up weren't much to Boston (Hansen hadn't impressed enough in his chances and, like Dewon said, unless Crisp is unloaded, Moss wasn't going to get a shot anytime soon), but the point is they didn't get good value for RAMIREZ.

That's where everyone is saying the Red Sox got fleeced. For all their talk about getting fair value for Manny's offense in recent years (at least, that's what they said was the reason they didn't trade him before this season), they didn't get much for him when you look at it. They didn't get a prospect or a package. All they got was Jason Bay, who, while a fine ballplayer and better defender than Manny, would never be confused with the spacey slugger that Ramirez is/was.

Again, the talk is not about what prospects the Red Sox lost, it's about what they didn't get for Manny. (Although when you surrender prospects as well and still don't get much back, that is just plain robbed.)
I'd say the Red Sox did very well by acquiring Bay for Ramirez (ignore that that wasn't the actual deal). Not only is Bay more valuable than Manny, but he's wayyyyyy cheaper. I

I'm not even saying that the Red Sox did bad in the deal. I'd say they did pretty well. The Pirates did even better, though.
Sorry, Jason Bay doesn't = Manny Ramirez. Not even when defense is taken into account.

Yeah, he's cheaper and Ramirez was probably going to have that option picked up (not to mention Bay is younger), but Bay is in no way the same class as Ramirez at the plate and add to the fact that they gave up two of their top prospects (maybe two that didn't fit anymore, but that's besides the point) and didn't get any in return is where the problem lies.

The Great Theo won't be winning any Exec of the Year titles with a move like this.
He's not in the same class if you still chose to believe that Manny is the same Manny he was in his peak, which he is not.

Yes, with defense, Bay is more valuable than Manny. Throw in the fact that he's cheaper and that he is under control for one more season (since the Sox were more than likely to not exercise Manny's option), and it's a very good deal for the Red Sox straight up.

Jason Bay is Austin Kearns. http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bayja01.shtml

Would you deal Manny Ramirez and two prospects for Austin Kearns? Or Geoff Jenkins?
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Dewon
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i'm gonna go to bed now because i hate it when i spend hours of the night arguing about this stuff but all i'm gonna say is that brandon moss was a chip. that's all he was. and he wasn't a very valuable chip either. he wasn't someone we were gonna trade on his own to get us something of value. and he wasn't someone who was going to start on our major league roster. in june he was ranked #7 overall on soxprospects.com. that's out of all the players in the sox minor league system. but 2 spots ahead of him at #5 was an outfielder who is 4 years younger. and 1 spot behind at #8 was an outfielder who 5 years younger. moss was an aging minor league player who would have only lost more value the more time he spent in the sox farm system.

edit: and also, how many 36 year old left fielders with "horrible defense" and a bad attitude can net a 30 year old all-star left fielder?
Edited by Dewon, Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:39 am.
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yankee242B
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I'm a lead farmer, motherf...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ramirma02.shtml
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sportslover
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yankee242B
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:36 am
Hyltzn
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:32 am
yankee242B
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:24 am
Hyltzn
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:20 am
yankee242B
Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:08 am
I agree that the two prospects the Sox gave up weren't much to Boston (Hansen hadn't impressed enough in his chances and, like Dewon said, unless Crisp is unloaded, Moss wasn't going to get a shot anytime soon), but the point is they didn't get good value for RAMIREZ.

That's where everyone is saying the Red Sox got fleeced. For all their talk about getting fair value for Manny's offense in recent years (at least, that's what they said was the reason they didn't trade him before this season), they didn't get much for him when you look at it. They didn't get a prospect or a package. All they got was Jason Bay, who, while a fine ballplayer and better defender than Manny, would never be confused with the spacey slugger that Ramirez is/was.

Again, the talk is not about what prospects the Red Sox lost, it's about what they didn't get for Manny. (Although when you surrender prospects as well and still don't get much back, that is just plain robbed.)
I'd say the Red Sox did very well by acquiring Bay for Ramirez (ignore that that wasn't the actual deal). Not only is Bay more valuable than Manny, but he's wayyyyyy cheaper. I

I'm not even saying that the Red Sox did bad in the deal. I'd say they did pretty well. The Pirates did even better, though.
Sorry, Jason Bay doesn't = Manny Ramirez. Not even when defense is taken into account.

Yeah, he's cheaper and Ramirez was probably going to have that option picked up (not to mention Bay is younger), but Bay is in no way the same class as Ramirez at the plate and add to the fact that they gave up two of their top prospects (maybe two that didn't fit anymore, but that's besides the point) and didn't get any in return is where the problem lies.

The Great Theo won't be winning any Exec of the Year titles with a move like this.
He's not in the same class if you still chose to believe that Manny is the same Manny he was in his peak, which he is not.

Yes, with defense, Bay is more valuable than Manny. Throw in the fact that he's cheaper and that he is under control for one more season (since the Sox were more than likely to not exercise Manny's option), and it's a very good deal for the Red Sox straight up.

Jason Bay is Austin Kearns. http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bayja01.shtml

Would you deal Manny Ramirez and two prospects for Austin Kearns? Or Geoff Jenkins?
That's a terrible comparison. Terrible. It's not even close. Not even going to bother answering the question.



Quote:
 
edit: and also, how many 36 year old left fielders with "horrible defense" and a bad attitude can net a 30 year old all-star left fielder?


If they're Hall of Famers, and if people still believe in "lineup presence" and BS like that, and if you're dealing with Ned Colleti, and as long as defense is undervalued, then that can happen a lot.

Similar to the Griffey deal. How many replacement-level players are traded for?
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yankee242B
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I'm a lead farmer, motherf...

How is that a terrible comparison? Please, oh great stats-man, explain it to me.
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