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Will we ever be able to have an honest discussion about Islam?
Topic Started: Aug 3 2013, 06:36 AM (679 Views)
Deleted User
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The people willing to criticize it are usually foaming-at-the mouth, KKKristian, racist, Faux News watching, tea party types who hate gays as much as any Muslim does. It's about brown people and "foreigners" to them.

But those on the Left (who readily and rightfully criticize Christianity) are never willing to discuss it for fear of being called an Islamaphobe. They trip all over themselves defending a religion that largely enslaves women and calls for the deaths of gays and apostates.

I think both sides are wrong.

I am pro-immigration, religious freedom, and against racist profiling of any kind, etc. But it does bother me to see--in former strongholds of progressive thought like Paris and Amsterdam--women walking around in burkas (the hijab does not bother me). I don't think it is about respecting or protecting women. I think it is about enslaving them.

I don't think they're all violent terrorists and accept that most of them are peaceful. But we've got a fucked up sense of what it means to be "moderate" for them as opposed to what it means for Christians. It concerns me that their youth are even more extreme than their parents (a trend opposite to Christianity), and the percentages that want Sharia law in Western countries, think terrorism is justifiable, and who think the death penalty is justified for apostates and homosexuals is not some insignificantly low number.

Thoughts?

PS: I don't want to hear any racist bullshit or any cries of "Islamaphobe!" I want to have an adult conversation about it.
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PS: before it even comes up.

1) The crusades and the inquisition were hundreds of years ago.

2) There have been all of 20 attacks on abortion clinics/doctors in the last 30 years, only about 10 of which resulted in death.

3) As fucking evil as WBC is, they are very tiny, clearly and publicly condemned by mainstream Christians, and have never murdered anyone.

None of those things compare.

Proceed.
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Erna
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We no longer hate or fear the Towel, in fact we like them!

They are hard working people with traditional family values.
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LizBien
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This is going to come off as odd...

I could care less about proper Islamic ladies, children, or gentlemen. Where I live (in the south) there is a proper Islamic community and no one cares. I live near a Mosque, an Islamic school, and market- no one where I live cares.

Why? Why because they are not of the lunatic fringe. That's why. There. I said it. That lunatic fringe is what gives Islam a really bad name amongst those who don't know any better I guess.

Y'all know how I mean? If there is no reason for something to bother someone, then it won't.
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Erna
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The 'terrorists' are enjoying very high paying and prestigious 'jobs' in NYC, DC, and London. They occupy the Pentagon and the White House and 10 Downing street.

The Towels have nothing to do with it, they are the victims(along with the US Taxslavers, the sappiest suckers on the planet)
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I appreciate you saying that, Lizbien.

Living in the US, I was one of the stereotype liberals screaming "Islamaphobe!" at everyone. One of my major papers for Advanced Comp in college involved an in-depth interview with a Muslim woman who had fled Iran and even knew Betty Mahmoody (The "Not without My Daughter" lady). She was very cool, and considered herself moderate.

So I thought I had an open mind...until I moved to Europe. It's much different here. I think the truly moderate to liberal Muslims really do flee to the US, but in Europe there is a lot more of the extremism. We have entire enclaves living in London, Paris, and Amsterdam who do not mix with non-Muslims, around 40% of whom want Sharia law, and the majority of whom think the death penalty is justifiable for apostates and homosexuals. It is getting scary.

If you bring it up with liberal friends, you get called a racist or an Islamaphobe. But then the people who allow themselves to be really vocal are really just racist xenophobes looking for a chance to scream about something.

The truth, as usual, is somewhere in between.
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America doesn't know what it's like to be inundated with radical Islamic immigrants who refuse to assimilate.

Instead, America just uses Islam as its enemy du jour, its excuse to spend $1,000,000,000s on useless military and provide welfare to 1,000s in uniform.
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Aug 3 2013, 10:36 AM
America doesn't know what it's like to be inundated with radical Islamic immigrants who refuse to assimilate.

Instead, America just uses Islam as its enemy du jour, its excuse to spend $1,000,000,000s on useless military and provide welfare to 1,000s in uniform.
If more American liberals lived here for awhile, they would experience the same transformation I have.
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If you want to see a truly bizarre sight, go to Amsterdam. See hordes of nearly naked prostitutes, encased in glass like perverted vending machines, occupying entire alleys. Then turn a corner, and see a group of women in burkas.

Two forms of female slavery: side by side.
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I was at the market yesterday and thought it was interesting the note the varying degrees of covering by Islamic women. Some just had scarves. One woman was covered in a very heavy material with only an infinitesimal slit to see through.

In all cases, the husbands were casually dressed, as was appropriate for the occasion and climate.

Islam is sexism.
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Erna
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Pollyanna Prisspot, School Marm
Aug 3 2013, 10:44 AM
If you want to see a truly bizarre sight, go to Amsterdam. See hordes of nearly naked prostitutes, encased in glass like perverted vending machines, occupying entire alleys. Then turn a corner, and see a group of women in burkas.

Two forms of female slavery: side by side.
Why are 'out' homosexuals so pro-fish?

In our day fish and sisters were mortal enemies, as it should be.
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MrsPatrickCampbell
Aug 3 2013, 11:20 AM
Pollyanna Prisspot, School Marm
Aug 3 2013, 10:44 AM
If you want to see a truly bizarre sight, go to Amsterdam. See hordes of nearly naked prostitutes, encased in glass like perverted vending machines, occupying entire alleys. Then turn a corner, and see a group of women in burkas.

Two forms of female slavery: side by side.
Why are 'out' homosexuals so pro-fish?

In our day fish and sisters were mortal enemies, as it should be.
Adults and sane people are talking now, hon.

Go outside and play.

In traffic.
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Deleted User
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Guest
Aug 3 2013, 11:01 AM
I was at the market yesterday and thought it was interesting the note the varying degrees of covering by Islamic women. Some just had scarves. One woman was covered in a very heavy material with only an infinitesimal slit to see through.

In all cases, the husbands were casually dressed, as was appropriate for the occasion and climate.

Islam is sexism.
Yes. Yes, it is.

And--if I'm honest--I do have a problem with the hijab as well. But it isn't polite to say so.

If the husbands weren't walking around in shorts, flip-flops, and tight tees, I would have less of a problem with it.

Just curious where you are R10. Luton? ;)

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I'm not in Luton, but I did enjoy that video you linked.
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Erna
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We still hunger for hot young Pakastani sizemeat but it seems unavailable.
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MrsPatrickCampbell
Aug 3 2013, 12:04 PM
We still hunger for hot young Pakastani sizemeat but it seems unavailable.
Please go to Pakistan and attempt to procure some.

We'll wait for you to report back...
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Mrs Patrick Campbell:

I've taken the trouble to consult a tour book.

Posted Image

The areas in red are, I'm told, swarming with Pakistani sizemeat. It is in these charming locales that you should concentrate your efforts, wandering the streets proclaiming, "I am a Christian homosexual American, looking for men and boys who will do the sex where the man or boy goes up into the me!"
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Guest
Aug 3 2013, 12:35 PM
Mrs Patrick Campbell:

I've taken the trouble to consult a tour book.

Posted Image

The areas in red are, I'm told, swarming with Pakistani sizemeat. It is in these charming locales that you should concentrate your efforts, wandering the streets proclaiming, "I am a Christian homosexual American, looking for men and boys who will do the sex where the man or boy goes up into the me!"
:rofl
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Erna
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Thanks, Miss PP, our mouth is watering already!!!
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Go pack your muumuu immediately, and practice licking your lips and saying "Yum!" seductively!
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I find, when visiting a foreign country, it breaks the ice to speak a bit in the local tongue.

MPC: You may wish to greet everyone you meet on your journey with these cheerful words:

أنا مثلي الجنس المسيحي الأمريكي. أريد أن ممارسة الجنس في فتحة الشرج من محمد!

You can add more winning declarations of intent here:

http://translate.google.com/
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Erna
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نحن الجوع لفترة طويلة سميكة اللحوم حجم الباكستاني!
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Aug 3 2013, 12:55 PM
I find, when visiting a foreign country, it breaks the ice to speak a bit in the local tongue.

MPC: You may wish to greet everyone you meet on your journey with these cheerful words:

أنا مثلي الجنس المسيحي الأمريكي. أريد أن ممارسة الجنس في فتحة الشرج من محمد!

You can add more winning declarations of intent here:

http://translate.google.com/
I'm warming up to you guys.

:rofl
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Asking for help in Islamabad:

هل يمكنك مساعدتي؟ كمسيحي، وأنا أعلم أن النبي محمدا عاهرة عبر خلع الملابس في السماء. ما لا نعرفه هو ما اذا كان يحب يسوع لاطلاق النار على الحيوانات المنوية في فمه أو شرجه أكثر؟ هل تعرف؟ شكرا لك!
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Deleted User
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As much as I'm enjoying this, let's get back on topic.

How do you guys really feel about the situation?
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Guest
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Just enjoy the flow without trying to control.
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Guest
Aug 3 2013, 05:21 PM
Just enjoy the flow without trying to control.
I was enjoying it. But the cut and paste into Google translate was a pain. That's all.
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But it does guarantee attention from either the NSA or Islamic extremists.
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Leave
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Leave these false prophets to Heaven.
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Hollande won the French election with 93% of the Muslim vote.
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Cheryl
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My pussy stinks.
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الأقراط

قفطان
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On an individual level, religion is about choice and I don't care to make other people's choices for them. if they want to live a life believing in something fake that's fine. It's only a problem when it affects me.

On a country wide level, (Islamic countries) there might be people trapped in these regions who are forced to live a religion they don't care for (enslaved women for example), but I don't see how I can be the world's police man, in Mariah's words, I have problems of my own. Not that I don't feel for them.

Why single out Islam? When you talk, include all religions, there are no "tame" ones. When you get into the trap of trying to say some religions are evil and hostile, you end up supporting other religions. Yet they all are oppressive and harmful.

As I get older, and I get tired of the rat race like everybody else, I can see how people who age turn to conservative and fundamentalist values. I'm married to a strong willed man, but I'm strong willed too, so it takes hard work to make it work, although it's worth it. Sometimes you just fantasize about a submissive partner, like a religion might dictate.....

But I know after a short time of that, THAT would get very old. However I get it, sometimes you just want to "check out" of society and not have to think about all the worlds problems and just do what you are told. Be a good deacon with a dutiful wife who bakes and just sit there and watch crap tv so you don't have to think.

The book reading atheist liberal part of me holds that in check, but I'm just saying I can see the allure. I know why people who age turn conservative and fundamentalist. They get tired of feeling the burden of the world on their shoulders.
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Quote:
 
Sometimes you just fantasize about a submissive partner, like a religion might dictate.....


Odd, how that "submissive partner" is always female.

You type with the bored detachment of someone who has enjoyed the patriarchal privilege!

-- Nan Michiganwomyn
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Guest
Aug 3 2013, 11:02 PM
Quote:
 
Sometimes you just fantasize about a submissive partner, like a religion might dictate.....


Odd, how that "submissive partner" is always female.

You type with the bored detachment of someone who has enjoyed the patriarchal privilege!

-- Nan Michiganwomyn
Not enjoyed but sees the allure. The allure for me would be male or female, however the fact that it's always female in the rest of society isn't my doing.

Heck, in some fantasies the submissive one is ME!
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I'm looking to put together a Bacha bazi theme party. Please let me know where to find dancers. TIA.
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Aug 3 2013, 10:48 PM
Why single out Islam? When you talk, include all religions, there are no "tame" ones. When you get into the trap of trying to say some religions are evil and hostile, you end up supporting other religions. Yet they all are oppressive and harmful.
Because that's the subject of this thread.

If you think I'm not critical of Christianity, you must have missed at least 100 of my posts here. I'm the son of a Southern Baptist minister and spend plenty of time skewering Christianity.

On average--though I detest religion in general--Christianity is just not as scary as Islam at this point in history. Period. Anyone who can't admit that is being foolish. Christianity--though pretty violent back in its day and whose baseline holy book is as violent as any (condoning slavery, rape, incest, genocide, women covering their hair, women being subservient to men, women not speaking in public, homosexuality being punishable by death, and calls to murder non-believers are all in the bible)--was forced to evolve with Western culture. The Age of Enlightenment in Europe favored the idea of man as a rational being, deism, democracy, and--most importantly of all--separation of church and state. We may have dragged it kicking and screaming at times, but the Christian church has evolved considerably.

These Enlightenment concepts do not exist in the Muslim world. The church IS the state to them, and everyone must live by it. All of the ugly things in their holy book are still taken literally by huge chunks of followers, which is just not true with Christians except maybe with some far out there Mormon fundamentalist sects (and they are a tiny % and soundly and routinely dismissed by mainstream Christians).

I do not see mainstream Christians forcing their wives to cover themselves when they leave the house, wanting to live under a theocracy with biblical laws only, or intimating that atheists or gays should be imprisoned or executed. Those are considered fringe types among Christians. In the Muslim world, that is the mainstream. You may not think it is because you're wearing American rose colored glasses, but on the worldwide scale, it is indeed the mainstream.

I appreciate where you come from, and used to stand there myself. But I don't think you're being fair or realistic.
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Aug 3 2013, 05:59 PM
But it does guarantee attention from either the NSA or Islamic extremists.
This is part of why I started the thread. To be fair.

I spend a lot of time bashing Christians, but the second anyone starts a thread about Islam, it's all "The NSA is going to track you down!" or "You're going to attract Muslim extremists!"

It says a lot.
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Erna
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Aug 3 2013, 09:05 PM
Hollande won the French election with 93% of the Muslim vote.
We question that.

Probably it was 93% of the Towels that voted against that creep.
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So by "honest discussion" you mean your version?

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Aug 4 2013, 09:50 AM
So by "honest discussion" you mean your version?

Any version you want to submit that isn't some off-topic aside would be welcomed.
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Pollyanna Prisspot, School Marm
Aug 4 2013, 09:52 AM
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Aug 4 2013, 09:50 AM
So by "honest discussion" you mean your version?

Any version you want to submit that isn't some off-topic aside would be welcomed.
I'm not going to defend the violence of any religion, however I wonder about the widespread use of it. Do we know for a fact how many people are stoned to death in any given year? If it's a dozen worldwide, then that is 12 too many, but I don't think that would qualify as making it "mainstream" as you are referring to.

There are how many billions of Islamists worldwide? For something to be mainstream, the deaths would have to be in the tens of millions or more (don't count the deaths from war, but just the deaths from religious punishment, stonings, hangings, etc.) ARE they in the tens of millions but just not reported?

The subjugation of women in that religion is an extreme. But it is an extreme that derives from a primal source, where man was the hunter and the woman took care of the nest. Truth be told, that arrangement came about because it helped cover two different areas of life, it worked for a reason.

Of course there is nothing wrong with equality, or the woman being the breadwinner and the man staying home as long as SOMEONE is doing one of the two roles, it doesn't matter. (Yes, you can exist fine outside of that dynamic, but for most people, it's evolved that way because that dynamic is beneficial).

I think the reason a lot of discussion about Islam fails is that the discussion stems around Islamic women being forced to do what many Western women chose to do. BUT.... if they were forced to do that, then wouldn't there be no Islamic women in Western countries? Wouldn't they walk free of their faith? Why do we assume that a woman who wears a veil/burka prefers not to? Wouldn't generations upon generations of doing something acclimate someone to it where they then prefer it?


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Aug 4 2013, 10:15 AM

I think the reason a lot of discussion about Islam fails is that the discussion stems around Islamic women being forced to do what many Western women chose to do.
By this I mean women who want to marry a rich man so he can take care of them. It stems back to being taken cared of. How many of us have heard someone wish that their daughter would find a good doctor or CEO and settle down? How many bimbos attach themselves to the arms of billionaires? It comes back to being taken care of.

Here we chose to do it. There, they are forced to do it.

But it's still being done.
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Tybee
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The Islamitization of cities that are outside of traditional Islamic countries is only happening because the local officials sit back and let it happen. No one is saying that Muslims should not be able to practice their religion or a way of life inside their own homes (as long as it's not against the laws of the country they live in). But someone should definitely make these people aware that under no circumstances will they be allowed to write their own laws, even for their own people. If they want to immigrate they must be willing to conform to the local legal system.
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r36 are you a pedophile?



Here's the pbs Frontline one: http://video.pbs.org/video/1474778660/
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Aug 4 2013, 10:15 AM
Wouldn't generations upon generations of doing something acclimate someone to it where they then prefer it?


Great-great-grand-pappy said the same durn thing about them slaves!
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Aug 4 2013, 01:41 PM
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Aug 4 2013, 10:15 AM
Wouldn't generations upon generations of doing something acclimate someone to it where they then prefer it?


Great-great-grand-pappy said the same durn thing about them slaves!
I knew somebody would miss the point and go straight for the simplistic, obvious auto-response.

There is no doubt that Islam can oppress and enslave women.

According to Google (take it for what it's worth), there are at least 1.5 billion Muslims. If roughly half of those are women, then you are suggesting that there are 750 million slaves held against their will in this world.

I don't doubt that some of them are. My point was that not all of them are there against their will. You ASSUME it so, because it would be so, if applied to you. You can't see outside of your own myopic vision.

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Aug 4 2013, 02:56 PM
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Aug 4 2013, 01:41 PM
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Aug 4 2013, 10:15 AM
Wouldn't generations upon generations of doing something acclimate someone to it where they then prefer it?


Great-great-grand-pappy said the same durn thing about them slaves!
I knew somebody would miss the point and go straight for the simplistic, obvious auto-response.

There is no doubt that Islam can oppress and enslave women.

According to Google (take it for what it's worth), there are at least 1.5 billion Muslims. If roughly half of those are women, then you are suggesting that there are 750 million slaves held against their will in this world.

I don't doubt that some of them are. My point was that not all of them are there against their will. You ASSUME it so, because it would be so, if applied to you. You can't see outside of your own myopic vision.

Dial back the sense of superiority, princess.

There are, no doubt, both women used-to/happy-with the sexism of Islam and those who aren't/don't.
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Michelle Duggar
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You tell em! That religion makes women nothing more than breeding sows!
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Erna
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We have nothing against the Towels and actually appreciate their presence. They have never bothered us and are usually quite pleasant and speak English, unlike the stupid Spanish.

Here in Spain, the Towels and the Ornamentals are the only people who work, unlike the lazy Spanish.
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