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| Abortion pictures | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 1. March 2012, 19:57 (1,958 Views) | |
| Bisho no Teresa | Thursday, 1. March 2012, 19:57 Post #1 |
Shurayukihime
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Oh look, freedom of choice!  I'm not sentimental but those are little hands and feet. Here in the UK people look at you like you're batshit insane if you want to stop abortions, we've really been brainwashed into accepting this kind of evil shit. Instead of having sympathy for these kids, the mother gets sympathy for her 'difficult decision' when I spend more time deciding which games console to buy. And if you show people pictures like this, they look at you like you're the sick fuck and not the babykillers. Instead of getting rid of children can we get rid of idiot adults instead? If they weren't so stupid the kid wouldn't be there in the first place. 7 weeks  8 weeks   9 weeks   11 weeks  The Moslems are right and the west are wrong, this 'choice' deserves the death penalty. Not one of these people would have the guts to kill their kid after its born, it always has to be done behind walls so people don't see it. And by doctors, too, because doctors are always good and they make people better lol. Hateful women bitch about women's 'rights', but they don't care about their own kids rights, or about the father when the mother goes behind his back then he can't stop her. Then they shriek like pro-life Evangelicals about people aborting little girls in India, it becomes a crime when they can't use it to bash men. And don't buy that first trimester shit either, these children are all the victims of first trimester abortions. Edited by Bisho no Teresa, Thursday, 21. June 2012, 16:36.
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| spit | Friday, 2. March 2012, 05:03 Post #2 |
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are you also against killing animals ? because they are alive too i would be interested in when do you people consider abortion killing a human - i havent tought about this myself - difficult problem - this relates to what is life, what rights do we have, value of life etc and the pictures are interesting - strong impact aswell... kind of reminds me of Evangelion... Edited by spit, Friday, 2. March 2012, 05:04.
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| Bisho no Teresa | Friday, 2. March 2012, 09:22 Post #3 |
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Shurayukihime
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Killing humans and other animals is a part of nature, and actions aren't moral or immoral in themselves, what matters is how, when and why. Killing is wrong unless its for a good reason, but whether or not there are special exceptions sometimes, most abortions are for trivial reasons. (And yep, unnecessary animal suffering and killing should also be stopped.) In nature, animals sometimes reabsorb embryos or kill their own young because its necessary for their survival, but never because it doesn't fit their lifestyle or just because they don't want a bump when they go on holiday. That's sick. If you look at abortion without values then most abortions are actually harmful for an individual or a population because it's suicide in biological terms. Which takes us to your observation about the 'strong impact' of these pictures Spit, because the reason they had a strong impact on you is evolved instincts. Pro-choice language such as 'parasite' and 'mass of cells' are an attempt to override your healthy gut instincts with abstract reason that sounds convincing, but is actually irrational and harmful because those instincts are there for a reason. |
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| HegemonKhan | Friday, 2. March 2012, 09:55 Post #4 |
The Claymore Scribe
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we had an incident in regards to abortions: http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-31/justice/kansas.doctor.killed_1_dr-george-tiller-wichita-police-wichita-clinic?_s=PM:CRIME I don't care what stupid people think, this savior of babies is a hero of mine. It's laughable that this guy's a "murderer" (of 1 baby murdering FILTH), but Dr. "I Love Murdering Babies" Tiller (of countless innocent precious babies) isn't. One of the most glaring examples of state authorized murder and state un-authorized heroism... sighs... Edited by HegemonKhan, Friday, 2. March 2012, 10:17.
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| "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin | |
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| Bisho no Teresa | Friday, 2. March 2012, 10:28 Post #5 |
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Shurayukihime
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Its hilarious when that happens, I mean everyone's a mass of human cells, and a human life has no inherent value because its alive or human. You're only supposed to use those arguments to support killing some humans though. Precious little snowflakes all.  Dr Tiller was the victim of a very late term abortion himself.  I bet he never cared about what the dads might have thought about these abortions, or even if they knew, but we're all supposed to think of his own family rofl.And what about Henry Morgenthaler getting the Award of Canada, for making sure that country has no laws against abortion at all, how sick must Canada be. You should read Eric Rudolf, he's way smarter than most Christians, he prefers Nietzsche to the Bible, he's absolutely badass and he's an outlaw! Who are the real rebels, outlaw clinic bombers like him or mollycoddled feminist scum grovelling to the state for 'women's rights'. I said underneath the pictures, these people start shrieking like pro-life Evangelicals about people aborting little girls in India, like abortion becomes wrong when they can't use it as a weapon to bash men. Who thinks they'd care if it was just little boys being aborted? You can say all those babies being aborted are collateral damage in the gender war. Edited by Bisho no Teresa, Friday, 2. March 2012, 10:29.
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| HegemonKhan | Friday, 2. March 2012, 10:46 Post #6 |
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The Claymore Scribe
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Mobile Suit Gundam Wing: Heero Yuy: "Even if the world has gone crazy, I'll believe in myself and keep on fighting." I don't know whether it's sad or infuriating at how insane people have become, sighs. But, they've won the war, and what do we really care anyways, we'll be dead soon enough when ever that happens in NN years, future generations can deal with it or not deal with it. Edited by HegemonKhan, Friday, 2. March 2012, 10:47.
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| "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin | |
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| Bisho no Teresa | Friday, 2. March 2012, 10:47 Post #7 |
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Shurayukihime
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That's why people object to pro-lifers showing people these photos, it makes them have to think about what goes on. You mentioned animals being alive, well this is the same sort of thing as the hypocrisy about that film The Cove. Most of the people who condemn Japan's treatment of a few dolphins, or Spain's public bullfights, happily eat meat and eggs from battery hens and use cosmetics tested on animals. This is on a far greater scale than a few bullfights and dolphin massacres but they don't want a conscience about unnecessary cruelty they benefit from. Its the same when people shriek over some child abuse on the news, but ignore the millions of kids killed by selfish women every day. Because they want the option there when they have affairs, when they fuck everyone without condoms or consequences, and when they're scared their daughter might get pregnant despite their odious 'family values'. They couldn't do this without thinking if they see the pictures. |
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| HegemonKhan | Friday, 2. March 2012, 10:52 Post #8 |
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The Claymore Scribe
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As for animals, I only care about some animals, though I can't watch or think about even animals that I don't care about, getting slaughtered or abused. But, if I'm not watching or thinking about it, I could really care less about, say cows, and etc. But, hurt or kill a dog... |
| "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin | |
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| spit | Friday, 2. March 2012, 12:20 Post #9 |
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this sentence captures interesting point - that truth is relative and everyone does what he wants - our world is anarchy no matter how organized it may seem sorry if i spelled something obvious, and great catch - one of my fav lines from G. Wing good, you think so too.. but still - i dont think there is such thinkg as having good reasons.. you either say abortion is ok or not ok not that for good reason it is ok... even when its child or mother scenario - who decides who should be killed or who should kill and if it it really good option huh? do you believe there is such thing as right to say whats really supposed to be done? could you explain some more? i dont understand Edited by spit, Friday, 2. March 2012, 12:28.
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| Bisho no Teresa | Friday, 2. March 2012, 14:40 Post #10 |
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Shurayukihime
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Well nothing's moral in all times and places, the world doesnt work in either-or. Supposing its alright to kill in self defence, does the need for self defence make it alright to kill at all other times? That's why I don't really bother thinking about exceptional cases, only the general rule which is a guideline not an absolute. All I meant about your evolved instincts was that the 'strong impact' these pictures evoke is because people have instincts which evolved for the protection of young. That's why pregnant females cover their stomachs when they fall downstairs, and many bystanders would try and stop her falling. I found this about the 'good' Dr Tiller on that link just now, HK. Only 'almost always'? Not 'without exception always'? Edited by Bisho no Teresa, Friday, 2. March 2012, 19:19.
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| HegemonKhan | Friday, 2. March 2012, 19:17 Post #11 |
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The Claymore Scribe
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Personally, I don't care how hawt my wife is, my child would come first! That's how to be a parent! You'd give your life for your child, and abortion is the opposite of that... HK shakes head... truly insane, sighs... If you need sexual pleasure (sex addict), go masterbate, find someone who's sterile, of a different species... lol, or surgically-anatomically sterilize yourself... -------- I differ from I think Bisho and you, as I do believe in right and wrong, of absolutes, there is no "relativism" for me. ------- the problem with the favoritism of the philosophy of believing in people, in letting everyone do what they think is right, is just wrong. Oh, everyone believes that what they do is right, Hitler believed he was doing the right thing, America believed it was doing the right thing with slavery, males believed they were doing the right thing with oppression-slavery of females, Vlad the Impaler believed he was doing the right thing, name your other genocidal dictator, Dr. Tiller believed he was doing the right thing, the cops who do "cop brutality" (assualt-murder) believe they were doing the right thing, the man doing domestic violence believes he's doing the right thing, the criminal-murderer-rapist believe he's doing the right thing, and etc etc etc. as can be seen, this philosophy belief, is quite folly... ------ as for relavatism, if you know some philosophy, and/or are interested in the arguments against relativism, pro-absolute, pro right-wrong, let me know, and we can delve into it. ------------------ "His patients were "almost always in circumstances where something had gone horribly wrong with a pregnancy," and where a woman's health would be endangered if the pregnancy continued, Brownlie said." -from the source cited-link to, seen above in my previous post forget just his patients, it's every patient at every planned parenthood... A flat out BS LIE to the entire nation, but we're so full of stupid or crazy people, almost our entire nation believes this... libel..., sighs. --------------------- If it's about the SLUT-IZING movement of our females, then it's okay for them to MURDER OUR BABIES... It's all about keeping their BFs with a big smiles on their faces, got to please our BFs with hedonistic orgy of sex, day in and day out, non-stop. And you wonder why I think youth are stupid... Edited by HegemonKhan, Friday, 2. March 2012, 19:30.
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| "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin | |
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| Bisho no Teresa | Friday, 2. March 2012, 19:33 Post #12 |
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Shurayukihime
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There's nothing viler than a pro-choice man, because the traits that make men desirable are linked to his potential as a father. Snivelling little insects who won't stand up for their own genetic interests or bastards who think their female's not worth raising child by. I'm not really bothered by my 'right' to have a career, I do however feel concern some spineless man might impregnate me, come up with 'your body, your choice', dump me then be seen as respecting women's rights thanks to feminism - he would be respecting my freedom of choice, after all, just nothing else.  Of course in the past someone who did that would be a bastard.There's a reason there are so many pro-choice men and male feminists around, horrid little shits.  And girls were definitely better off before feminism, abortion and the pill changed how men treat women.As for you're views on right and wrong, you remind me of someone awesome who'd agree with this thread. 
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| HegemonKhan | Friday, 2. March 2012, 19:49 Post #13 |
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The Claymore Scribe
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Who's that... the invisible man... or is that the character from, The Watchmen movie? I don't know his name... argh.. |
| "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin | |
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| Bisho no Teresa | Friday, 2. March 2012, 19:59 Post #14 |
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Shurayukihime
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Don't you know Walter Kovacs? He's my favourite superhero, and you like psychopathic loner characters, so you should love him. |
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A boyfriend should make his girlfriends pussy wet, not her eyes. A girlfriend should make her boyfriends dick hard... and his life... The NUMBER ONE badass anime forum for OUTLAWS! | |
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| HegemonKhan | Friday, 2. March 2012, 20:08 Post #15 |
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The Claymore Scribe
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Nope, I watched the movie, not knowing any of the characters, lol. I haven't ever seen-read American comics, sighs. |
| "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin | |
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| spit | Friday, 2. March 2012, 21:02 Post #16 |
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you are wrong about me.. i dont think i have any instincts for protection of youth or life or anything, nor do i value life of a kid more, i dont view mother(not mine in general) as something more and i dont think of fetus much.. - i think its some cells and such - it doesnt have consciousness or something so its more like a plant or a tree, if i should decide whether kill a dog or a fetus id kill that shich has less advanced consciousness at that moment the impact i felt is (i believe) because the pictures show something that looks alive and suffering i must look like total evangelion freak right now but again those pictures remind me of that, the impact i feel is the disgust one feels when confronted with the reality - we are organic we can be torn apart broken sliced up, bleed out etc we are matter just as anything else pictures that have the same impact on me (POSSIBLE EVANGELION SPOILERS): Spoiler: click to toggle Edited by spit, Friday, 2. March 2012, 21:06.
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| Bisho no Teresa | Friday, 2. March 2012, 21:18 Post #17 |
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Shurayukihime
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That's interesting, because I don't empathise yet it's still innately sick this is allowed, and I felt that way before I became sensitised to people hurting or killing children. The problem with the consciousness argument is that just because a subject has the capacity for consciousness, doesn't mean they will be conscious of their death after the event. This can be prevented by anaesthetic or just by making so quick and clean a kill the subject won't even realise they're being attacked. So while for example 'pain awareness' is a reason not to take actions that may inflict pain, the subjects awareness of death can't be used to prohibit killing. Besides the concept of 'consciousness' is more problematic than people think, the sense of self is just a user illusion. |
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| spit | Saturday, 3. March 2012, 01:18 Post #18 |
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im not talking about causing distress while being killed lol.. im talking about value of life, dog or a fetus? that which has greater consciousness, i dont value mud or sand much the same as i dont value my hand or my hair, or my nerves eye or brain, i value only my consciousness - if dog is mor econsciouss than a fetus ill kill the fetus |
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| Bisho no Teresa | Saturday, 3. March 2012, 23:44 Post #19 |
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Shurayukihime
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That's pointless though, why consider consciousness in an ethical dilemma where suffering is irrelevant (presuming any kill will be done painlessly and without the subject being aware beforehand)? This is one of the problems when people attempt to apply Peter Singer type rule utilitarianism, which seeks to minimise suffering, to acts of killing. The other is that laws and social norms don't work according to philosophical dilemmas, in real life everyone is unconscious when they're under anaesthetic. Of course it shouldn't be legal to purposefully kill someone without their consent when they're sedated or asleep as long as they still have the potential to wake up, and this isn't just a moral statement, its because it would be nonsensical. Ergo of course the potential to suffer in the future has to be taken into account by the law. Anyway why value consciousness instead of life if consciousness is just a survival tool? Conscious decisions can be bad for survival, in which case consciousness is sometimes a bad thing in a value-neutral sense. I've found it overrated given that the capacity for abstract values is pretty much a useless and costly spandrel. Why have a value that isn't useful? Edited by Bisho no Teresa, Saturday, 3. March 2012, 23:48.
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| spit | Sunday, 4. March 2012, 12:24 Post #20 |
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nice... well BnT im not sure what you value then if not consciousness, killing itself is what im against right now... if something is alive i wont kill it even painlessly because it has the right to live... no i dont give a shit about morals, think of it more like i dont have right to take a life,no it like this: life has some value and if i apply my theory that only action that increases value (or preserves it) has meaning than killing is wrong you sound you already have strong opinion on this - share it please im using life and consciousness interchangebly why? because i dont value life without consciousness (almost), i dont care about my cells my nerves my blood my skin or leg or my stomach - i only care about whether i am conscious - i dont give a shit about living if im unconscious - consciousness is the only thing that matters to me here is more on my 'revolutional' theory Edited by spit, Sunday, 4. March 2012, 12:29.
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| Bisho no Teresa | Sunday, 4. March 2012, 19:06 Post #21 |
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Shurayukihime
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Consciousness is too problematic a term to be particularly useful but in any case consciousness and life aren't the same thing. From a Darwinian perspective there's no difference between an oak tree and an acorn except the acorn can't pass on its genes yet, which is another demonstration of the need for potentiality in bioethics. The refusal of people to recognise that the equivalence in status of the anaesthetised to that of unborn children in early gestation, shows that 'consciousness' is only another word for 'soul', repackaged to sound less religious - but that doesn't make it rational. They're only interested in pointing out where consciousness first appears, rather than consistently giving it value. This is why they're like medieval theologians concerned with where the soul first enters the body. I'm not interested in such abstract trivia. Nietzsche understood what I mean about consciousness. Edited by Bisho no Teresa, Sunday, 4. March 2012, 19:36.
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| spit | Sunday, 4. March 2012, 22:12 Post #22 |
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can you enlighten me more on his/your idea? that historic english was just enough to use most of my thinking and understanding the main point was difficult if not impossible "I'm not interested in such abstract trivia." than what are you interested in? if you want to have solution of 'abortion' problem you have to evaluate value of life, consciousness and all related terms first "Consciousness is too problematic a term to be particularly useful " what kind of argument is this? i think it is important to know what it is for this debate well i have no idea what you think of consciousness, but it seems you dont think of it much, i asked what you value then - is it really life? "Anyway why value consciousness instead of life if consciousness is just a survival tool?" why are you so sure C is a survival tool? i can see it is evolved form of survival instinct (im sure we dont have brains for watching anime), sorry bad question it IS survival tool - it must have shaped up as one, but how can you value it as nothing more than survival tool? what do you value about yourself? your life or your consciousness - because if you lose either you lose everything - it is obvious that for a person they have equal value - holding someone alive on a machine is ok if there is chance (even 0.00...1%) that he will be conscious again if there is no such chance i could kill him off anytime - i dont think of unconscious person more as a vegetable... but even a vegetable that has potential/chance it will be c. again - i will value it more you value life instead of consciousness, then according to you: - unconscious(for whatever reason) person and conscious person are of equal value that means killing conscious or unc. person is the same thing - unconscious person and embryo (or whatever) are equal of value this results in your belief that (killing normal person) equals (killing an embryo) some more inevitable conclusions: 1 what is the difference between an animal and human, or between animals (like insect and a fish) according to you? because valuing life means there is not any difference, even plants have the same value as a living thing, do you evaluate life based on its complexity? quite convenient there 2 killing animal is the same thing as killing s person or even animal killing animal, if you are against abortions because it destroys life why are you not against animals killing animals? (im including humans in animals, i think of human as an animal + valuing life means they are equal too) 3 you dont value consciousness, it is only mechanism to preserve life, just as vision or hearing is problems you should have with your theory: - where do you draw a line between human, animal, plant and bacteria? where do you put viruses and where do you put line on living? whats living and what is not, because this is crucial to your theory - how do you explain consciousness? - how can you not value (in any way) conscious awareness? being able to think and have free will (lets call it such) am i to understand that you dont mind if you have or dont have conscious awareness? because if you do in just a slight way you have to value life with C more that life without it i think your opinion on C is like this: it is a survival tool, any awareness and 'free will' we have is only illusion, because whats going on in reality is that it is just another automated process, thinking and brain's mechanics in general are there to improve survival chances and function in a PREDICTABLE and given way, any thinking that people can act on their own (or read consciousness can act on its own desire not just as a body's function) is illusion and such thing doesnt exist result of this is that any personal interaction and awareness is hard wired and has only one purpose, believing otherwise is falling prey to the illusion, furthermore the only thing that has value is life, as consciousness is merely a by-product that didnt have to be there in the first place and therefore doesnt rise life's own value, from there on i can get to conclusions above... this all is fine, but (if you really believe so) do you honestly think that awareness as an evolved tool to protect is in no way able to think on its own behalf? do you honestly think that even if it came to be for the organism itself it didnt actually became something more, do you honestly believe consciousness is not worth preserving for the sake of preserving consciousness alone? i have to go to the whats life question: do you think of atoms as alive? no cells? yes now animate os from inanimate... tell me if you agree that something animate (and thus living = having value) can rise from inanimate (worthless), why do you think that there cant be anything that would rise from living organism itself as something of greater value that that organism? i think consciousness is exactly this, the evolution is what made life from lifeless molecules (bad coincidence is still evolution), and i think life simple evolved in a way that it gave rise to something more, and i think the cycle is not finished Edited by spit, Monday, 5. March 2012, 09:15.
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| Bisho no Teresa | Sunday, 4. March 2012, 23:02 Post #23 |
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Shurayukihime
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Nietzsche's point, and the Buddhist concept of anatman, are demonstrated by modern science, the conscious 'mind' is a user illusion, which doesn't even exist. There's no such thing as 'mind', only behaviour. I've already said before, I'm not interested in the silly values humans place on things, only that which is value neutral and exists in itself. And I'll repeat again, what's the use of a value? Look at it this way, animals have more consciousness than plants, but animals depend on plants to survive. Therefore its nonsense to value animals over plants if they're interconnected. |
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| spit | Sunday, 4. March 2012, 23:10 Post #24 |
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what? thats the most absurd thing i ever heard you are not interested in values only in what is valued as neutral? inconsistent... whats the use of value? everything... no its not... you are breaking this rule yourself ----------------------------------- well im dropping this conversation as you (and anyone else for now) dont seem to be interested in discussing (im not angry or anything... ), i just dont know why you would start a thread about it... but of course, will to discuss is not the only reason to start a thread so its perfectly fine Edited by spit, Sunday, 4. March 2012, 23:16.
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| Bisho no Teresa | Sunday, 4. March 2012, 23:32 Post #25 |
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Shurayukihime
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If we have problems debating, its because there's a language barrier when we try to discuss philosophy in English. But you're right, it's an abortion thread anyway, but we're now strayng into more general bioethics. |
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