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Public / Mass Killings / Shootings
Topic Started: Apr 18 2007, 06:33 PM (4,971 Views)
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Rock Star From Mars

----- EDITs BELOW -----

Litany of missed chances to stop killer Cho

Gunman in massacre contacted NBC News
  • BLACKSBURG, Va. -
    Sometime after he killed two people in a Virginia university dormitory but before he slaughtered 30 more in a classroom building Monday morning, Cho Seung-Hui sent NBC News a rambling communication and videos about his grievances, the network said Wednesday.

    Cho, 23, a senior English major at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, killed 32 people in two separate attacks Monday before taking his own life.

    Network officials turned the material over to the FBI and said they would not immediately disclose its contents beyond characterizing the material as “disturbing.” It included a written communication, photographs and video.

    Brian Williams, anchor and managing editor of “NBC Nightly News,” said in a posting on the program’s “Daily Nightly” blog that the communication was received earlier Wednesday. He described it as a very long “multi-media manifesto.”
Professor Had Expelled Gunman From Class

Killer sent 'disturbing' mail to NBC between shootings

Cops had questioned Cho in '05

Police: Va. Tech gunman accused of stalking two women in 2005

----- EDIT -----

I just saw a clip of the tape Cho sent to NBC news. He actually compares himself to Jesus Christ on the video.

Killer Cho enraged, menacing in video sent to TV
  • The package contained an 1,800-word diatribe expressing rage and voicing admiration for the students who carried out the 1999 Columbine High School massacre.

    In his resentful monologue spoken directly to the camera, Cho mixed religious references with disgust at what he called the hedonism around him.

    "Thanks to you I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenceless people," Cho said, adding: "When the time came I did it. I had to."

    .... "Do you know what it feels like to be humiliated and impaled upon the cross?" Cho said.

    "Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats? Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs? Your trust fund wasn't enough? Your vodka and cognac weren't enough? All your debaucheries weren't enough? Those weren't enough to fulfil your hedonistic needs? You had everything."
Virginia Tech killer's last words

Cho's rant: 'Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats'

Classmate tells of gunman's strange ways

Cho Seung-Hui: Violent Play Penned by Virginia Tech Shooter

Read Cho's "Richard McBeef" Play

Read "Mr Brownstone" by Cho

I haven't yet checked what Rosie O'Donnell thinks of this news story, but I am willing to bet she's gone into an anti-gun diatribe.

She's so stupid. If other college students had been permitted to carry guns on campus, Cho would've gotten a bullet in his head right away, which would've saved many more lives.

-- EDIT 2 --

A liberal writer has already blamed the parents of the murdered Virginia Tech students, George W. Bush, anyone who supported the war in Iraq, and all Americans in general for the actions of Cho Seung-Hui. Read about it here:
The Worst Left Wing Article Ever

I don't think the writer realizes that Cho Hui was from Korea and not the United States - so maybe he should've been blaming Korean culture instead.

--- Islamic Connection (?)---

Virginia Tech Killer: Ignoring the Elephant
  • Mainstream media are universally shying away from discussing an important piece of evidence: the fact that Virginia Tech killer Seung Hui Cho apparently identified strongly with the Islamic story of Ismail, the “Son of Sacrifice.”

    He not only wrote the words “Ismail AX” on his arm before starting his killing spree, he used that name in the return address on the package he mailed to NBC News:
    View image of package

    UPDATE at 4/18/07 7:24:27 pm:

    And just to make my viewpoint crystal clear: I am NOT implying that Cho was a “sudden jihadi.” But the very noticeable reluctance of mainstream media to even mention this subject is a disturbing testimony to the power of political correctness.
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Rock Star From Mars

I read in the paper today that according to one of Cho's suite mates that Cho had an imaginary girlfriend whom he claimed to be a supermodel from outerspace who sometimes visited him, and that her name was "Jelly."

Cho said "Jelly's" nickname for him was "Spanky." When the suitemate entered the room and just saw Cho sitting by himself, Cho told him to leave, as "Jelly" was in the room with him, and the two wanted to be alone.

One of Cho's instant messaging handles was "SpankyJelly." He used e-bay to buy some ammo.

More info-

Seung-Hui Cho's Internet Tracks

Excerpts-
  • Authorities are also examining the personal computers found in Cho's dorm room and seeking his cell-phone records.

    Cho, 23, also used the eBay account to sell items ranging from Hokies football tickets to horror-themed books, some of which were assigned in one of his classes.

    A search warrant affidavit filed Friday stated that investigators wanted to search Cho's e-mail accounts, including the address Blazers5505@hotmail.com. Durzy confirmed Cho used the same blazers5505 handle on eBay.

    .... One question investigators hope to answer is whether Cho had any e-mail contact with Emily Hilscher, one of the first two victims. Investigators plan to search her Virginia Tech e-mail account.

    Experts say that when the subject of an investigation is a loner like Cho, his computers and cell phone can be a rich source of information. Authorities say Cho had a history of sending menacing text messages and other communications -- written and electronic.

    .... Cho sold tickets to Virginia Tech sporting events, including last year's Peach Bowl. He sold a Texas Instruments graphics calculator that contained several games, most of them with mild themes.

    "The calculator was used for less than one semester then I dropped the class," Cho wrote on the site.

    He also sold many books about violence, death and mayhem. Several of those books were used in his English classes, meaning Cho simply could have been selling used books at the end of the semester.

    His eBay rating was superb -- 98.5 percent. That means he received one negative rating from people he dealt with on eBay, compared with 65 positive.

    .... Cho sold the books on the eBay-affiliated site half.com. They include "Men, Women, and Chainsaws" by Carol J. Clover, a book that explores gender in the modern horror film. Others include "The Best of H.P. Lovecraft: Bloodcurdling Tales of Horror and the Macabre"; and "The Female of the Species: Tales of Mystery and Suspense" by Joyce Carol Oates -- a book in which the publisher writes: "In these and other gripping and disturbing tales, women are confronted by the evil around them and surprised by the evil they find within themselves."

    Books by those three authors were taught in his Contemporary Horror class.
No Abnormalities Found in Cho's Brain

Excerpt:
  • Monday, April 23, 2007
    An initial autopsy of the Virginia Tech gunman found no brain function abnormalities that could explain the rampage that left 32 people dead at the Blacksburg university, a state medical examiner said yesterday.

    Brain tissue has been retained for additional microscopic examination, but the body of Seung Hui Cho has been cleared for release to his family, said William Massello, an assistant state medical examiner.

    "As to whether I found any other abnormalities in the brain, the answer is not on gross pathology examination," he said. "There will be microscopic examinations, but I do not anticipate finding anything."
Internet Key in Probe of Va. Tech Gunman

College killer bought bullet clips on eBay

Cho shot victims more than 100 times
  • April 22, 2007
    .... Cho was not especially accurate with his shots, Massello said, but hit many of the victims several times. His shots caused more than 100 wounds.

    Many of the victims had defensive wounds, indicating they tried to shield themselves from Cho's fire, but there was no evidence in the autopsies that Cho struggled with any of the people he killed.

    Cho died from a gunshot to his temple, Massello said. Even if his brain had been intact, doctors would not have been able to tell whether he had any sort of brain abnormality. Those are usually neurological or chemical disorders that are not detectable during an autopsy, he said.
Internet Key In Probe Of Va. Tech Gunman

Cho Trained For Tech Slaughter

Family of Cho Seung-hui issues statement
  • Sunday, Apr 22, 2007, Page 1

    The family of the gunman who shot dead 32 people has apologized for the "excruciating grief" inflicted on a US campus, saying as the nation mourned that he had made "the world weep."

    .... Issued by 23-year-old Cho's sister, Cho Sun-kyung, the statement said that her brother was "quiet and reserved," and had "struggled to fit in."

    "We never could have envisioned that he was capable of so much violence," the family said.

    "No words can express our sadness that 32 innocent people lost their lives this week in such a terrible, senseless tragedy," the statement continued.

    .... Police were probing the possibility that Cho may have confided his plans to someone else to unleash a massacre at Virginia Tech, ABC News reported.

    According to the report, authorities were now seeking Cho's cellphone records from Verizon Wireless in New Jersey.
Gunman’s family laments carnage

Virginia Korean community still reeling

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Rock Star From Mars


Was Cho [Virginia Tech Killer] taught to hate?


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wir
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What a crock of sh*t. I never really fit in when I was growing up, does anyone? Cry me a freakin river. I wore all black in 1982 when I was 12! What the hell is wrong with kids nowadays? They seriously need to quit whining, grow a backbone and realize that the world is diverse. Hell, I had guys bark at me when I had my Robert Smith hairdo in the 80's, but I also a little something called self esteem and a sense of humor. Those stupid Columbine kids started a whole mess of "ideals" that lazy, stupid kids follow now. Talk about lack of individuality anymore, damn! :grr:
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I disagree with you a bit, wir.

I don't excuse what Cho did, but on the other hand, American society is too fast to dismiss the effects of bullying in schools and in the workplace.

Some people break down under bullying and kill themselves, or, like Cho, kill others.

I was bullied a lot in the different schools I went to, and 99% of the time, the principals, parents of the bullies, bus drivers, and teachers did absolutely nothing to make the bullies stop.

Either those in charge would do nothing, or I'd get lame, run- of- the mill advice (which never worked!) such as "ignore the bully and she or he will leave you alone."

I have had depression and other mental health issues since a young age, so I simply could not defend myself from bullying or brush it off as though it were nothing.

I was very sensitive, my feelings got hurt quite easily, and I was very mild mannered and shy. I didn't have the (mental) resources or capabilities to stand up for myself.

A person with those qualities simply cannot endure day-in and day-out abuse, name calling, etc., and we tend to take it much harder than someone who has no mental problems.

The phenomenon is the same in American workplaces.

Human Resources Departments, bosses, and co-workers will not help, defend, or stand up for a worker who is being bulllied by another worker.

In such cases, the harassed worker cannot endure it any longer and kills himself, is forced to quit his job (which leads to a loss of his home since he can no longer pay his bills), or he vents his frustration by bringing a fire arm to his job and shooting everyone on sight.

I've been surprised and saddened by the number of online pundits or radio talk show hosts who just breezily dismiss the effects of bullying on people ( this Cho story being no exception), and I've seen the attitude before, like with the Columbine shootings.

I never lashed out by shooting anyone, but I sure understand where these kids are coming from.

Ultimately, Cho was responsible for his actions, but I bet there were a lot of bullies in his past who drove him to that point, and for some odd reason, Americans don't want to acknowledge that bullying played a part.

This was on the Smoking Gun:
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Melissa
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I was also bullied in school, and was extremely sensitive about it due to problems I was having at home. I would get harassed in school, only to come home to World War 3 instead of a shelter from the storm. There was nowhere for me to go that I felt I could relax and be safe. That kind of situation will either give you a thicker skin... or break you down completely. As for me, I learned to fight back. With fists, if necessary.

I nearly got suspended one time for getting into a knock-down drag-out with one of my bullies. It was the only way I could get her to stop, by challenging her. Violence -- either verbal or physical -- is all bullies understand. They're too mentally immature to process anything else.

So, while I don't condone blowing them all away with an Uzi, I certainly do understand what would drive a victim of bullying to that level of violence. There were times when I myself experienced the bloodlust and anger of someone too close to the edge. You'd do just about anything to kill the pain, to make them stop hurting you.

There were times I'd fantasise about torturing and violently killing those who caused me pain... including the one responsible for my misery at home. Ending their lives slowly and painfully would've been the definitive act of control over them all. Fortunately, I never actually got that far. But I definitely thought about it.

Back then, I didn't know having such deep anger was not normal. My life was hell, and it was the anger that kept me going. It took me years of therapy and self-reflection to realize that what I was experiencing and feeling wasn't entirely normal. Blind rage is not normal. Wanting to kill -- whether you act on it or not -- is not a normal coping mechanism for one's misfortune.

Does all that sound merely like "growing pains" to you? Honestly, looking back now, I'm stunned I turned out as well as I have... in spite of my personal history. That I didn't end up killing myself and/or others, or that I didn't self-medicate my hurt away. I could have just as easily been like Cho, like the Columbine killers, like any one of those kids. The big difference is I never purchased a gun; I bought a book on abnormal psychology instead, so I could understand it all better and why I felt the way I did. So I could begin to truly cope instead of merely survive.

Names really do hurt... and oftentimes, it isn't just namecalling, but physical intimidation and beatings as well. Who can the victims turn to if the school system sits on their laurels all the damn time? And when your family life is too troubled to find any oasis at home? There was no one there for me... and I barely escaped that hell with my life.

It's the violence prevalent in our society and the easy dismissal of bullying and mistreatment of others that's turning these kids into killing machines. Their shooting up the schools is their final stand; a desperate coda to the act because no one would listen to their tortured pleas.
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Rock Star From Mars

I've pasted in a recent story below about a 15 year old who was going to go on a shooting spree at his school because he had been bullied.

Knight, I related to what you wrote (I've sent you a private message).

My home life was a bit better, though. I've always had issues with my dad, but I was able to go up to my room and listen to the radio or what have you; I felt safe there.

I suspect a lot of these Virginia Tech / Columbine shooters had the same qualities and difficulties I did:

They were very quiet, shy, unassuming people, they didn't mess with anyone, and yet they'd get picked on anyway, and the adults would do nothing to stop the bullying.

Eventually, after holding the anger in long enough, one day they just snapped and that's why they brought the guns to school.

There was some teen school shooter (I think this was before the Columbine shootings) who apparently shot up kids at his school because he couldn't take the pain from their abuse anymore.

It was revealed later that most of the people he had targeted were the football / jock boys who had tormented him and harassed him every day for years.

He shot some teachers, and the teachers he targeted were the ones who knew about the bullying but did nothing to stop it, or had even egged on the bullies to keep picking on him.

I frequently see people quoted in news stories saying, "We don't understand why the boy killed someone. He was so quiet and never a problem."

I sit there thinking - how stupid and blind are those people who say they don't understand??? :dunce:

Here's the story where the kid said he was going to kill because he had been bullied a lot:

Mich News Dispatch (cached)
  • April 2007
    Threat gets boy arrested
    By Deborah Sederberg, The News-Dispatch

    A 15-year-old Michigan City High School freshman was arrested Friday morning at the school after authorities say he wrote a threatening note.

    “At 1:30 p.m. today those that talk about me will die,” the note said. A boy delivered the note to a secretary in the school office, claiming to have found it in a restroom, Assistant Police Chief John Kintzele said.

    The secretary gave it to Principal Mark Francesconi, who immediately notified police liaison officer Cpl. Walter Day.

    After an investigation by Day, the boy who brought the note to the office was identified as the boy who wrote it.

    “Officer Day found a key piece of evidence,” Kintzele said.

    Francesconi, who talked with the boy, said the teen admitted writing the note.

    “I believe this student had been a target,” said the principal. “I am sure this boy had some people bothering him,” he added, visibly moved by the young man's plight.

    A search of the student and his locker indicated the student had no means for carrying out the threat.

    “He admitted he never intended to carry out his threat,” Francesconi said.

    The boy was taken to the Juvenile Detention Center and charged with intimidation as a juvenile, Kintzele said, adding that he is confined to the secure wing of JDC.

    At 11:35 a.m., Francesconi spoke to students on the public address system and announced the arrest for a written threat.

    He believes the student was motivated either by the eighth anniversary of the Columbine High School shooting in Littleton, Colo., or the Monday shootings on the campus of Virginia Tech University.

    Francesconi also asked students to refrain from calling family and friends with rumors.

    Part of his job Friday was “to manage the crises of rumor,” Francesconi said.

    He called a local radio station to give a report of the incident and as an attempt to stop unsubstantiated rumors.

    On Friday afternoon, it was business as usual at the high school, at least according to students. Those who spoke to The News-Dispatch said they did not know who the note writer was and they weren't particularly interested in learning his identity.

    “I'm not worried about anything,” said sophomore Alyssa Berry, who was busy delivering notes and messages in connection with her job as an office aide.

    “I don't think anyone knows who wrote it,” she added, shrugging her shoulders. “I think it might be someone who was picked on.”

    Ellease Townsend, another sophomore, said she felt at ease. “I didn't know anything had happened until Mr. Francesconi made the announcement. I was just telling some kids in my classroom they shouldn't talk about other people because you never know how hurtful it might be.”

    Both Kintzele and Francesconi agree with that sentiment.

    “I surely wish (the accused boy) would have come to us earlier,” Francesconi said. He and other school personnel make an effort to deal with bullies, he said.

    Several students who asked not to be identified said they thought the incident was more sad than frightening.

    John Easton, who teaches a class in facilities maintenance, said, “We're just doing our jobs here. I haven't seen anyone who's nervous.”

    English teacher Fran Booth agreed. Supervising honors students as they conducted some research on the Internet, she said students seemed relaxed and normal.

    Francesconi said that's what he likes to hear. He sent a note to parents in which he explained the steps officials had taken after the threat was made.

    “No weapons or items that could harm were found,” he said in the note. “We finished the day without further incident. I commend our students and staff for their response to today's disruption.”
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Rock Star From Mars

This is a good editorial, but I somewhat disagre with this part:
  • And, it would be very expensive to stop teasing and taunting in the pre-college years.
How so? Just get the teachers, principals, and bus drivers to do their jobs: stop the bullying when they see it happening.

Another idea:
Institute a zero-bullying policy instead of brushing off bullying as just "boys will be boys," "it happens to all kids, even to me when I was in school," or "what's the big deal / teased kids need to develop thicker skins."

The fact is that some kids are way more sensitive to bullying and get far more damaged by bullying than their peers do.

The ones who are sensitive to it are the same ones who are going to lash out by bringing guns to school and shooting people.

Oh - and for the parents:
stop assuming that your kid is 100% angelic and never does wrong.

When I was a kid, my mom would sometimes call the parents of the kids who were smacking me, calling me names, etc., and the parents would go into denial and say things like, "Oh, I can't believe my sweet little Johnny would pick on your daughter."

Well, believe it lady, because your 'sweet little Johnny' loved to ridicule me daily and punch me.

Anger suffered in silence triggered tragedy
  • Clear up the mixed signals Asian boys receive here
    By Chen Sun

    It surprised many that South Korea, long known and admired for its disciplined, law-abiding, honest labor force, with one of the world's lowest murder rates, would produce an an immigrant who became a mass murderer in the United States.

    How did Virginia Tech shooter Seung-Hui Cho come to commit his murderous atrocities and what can we do about it?

    I believe the answer lies in better understanding the effects of Confucian-derived ideology on many young Asian male immigrants to this country, along with those of the Columbine tragedy and teenagers' taunting.

    Like the Korean shooter, I immigrated to this countryAmerica at age 8, and attended a grade school and high schools where I was usually the only Asian (or one of only two Asians) in a class. I attended a technical college, and eventually studied as a liberal arts major, as did Cho.

    Society has changed since I went to college in the late 70s, but many immigration adjustment issues remain the same. Perhaps I can shed some light on how Seung-Hui Cho may have felt. Though he's Korean and I'm Chinese, we're both from the same Confucian-East-Asian culture.

    What is it like to immigrate from Asia to America at age 8? Many of his teen acquaintances said SeungCho was continually teased and taunted. Language was undoubtedly an issue.

    The English language is difficult and can carry many meanings; an Asian immigrant typically doesn't have the verbal skills to defend himself. Cho likely swallowed his anger in silence as he was verbally being cut to pieces.

    There have been studies that show Asian men are regarded as the least attractive by American women. If Cho was holding suppressed anger, he would scare girls even more. Perhaps that's why he imagined a girlfriend from outer space.

    Adjusting to America for an Asian is perhaps more difficult than for many other cultural groups because there are fewer Asians from which newcomers can develop their own social norms.

    Black Americans are abused more than Asians, but there are more social traditions and institutions that restrain, rechannel or suppress blacks' anger. Hispanic immigrants come in larger numbers and have established cultures that help restrain their anger.

    For an 8-year-old Asian immigrant, life can be painfully distressing. Almost certainly, Cho initially followed his parents' Korean (Confucian-derived) ethics.

    Unfortunately, however, these ethics don't always work as well in the United States, and U.S. culture no doubt influenced him differently as well. This friction can mean problems at home as well as at school.

    On the plus side, his parents' Confucian-derived ethics would teach Cho the value of hard work, honesty, respect for elders, lots of self-discipline, as well as encouraging him to lean toward academics.

    But these ethics can be problematic for an immigrant youngster in a school and social environment where verbal attacks, abuse and social rejection continually occur.

    Because they arrived here as adults, Cho's parents came here with their sense of ethics, self and family already established. People in their circumstances would most likely always be "foreigners" anyway, preferring their foreign customs and tastes and their political ideology to that of their new home.

    On the other hand, their children would almost certainly be faced with conflicting cultural norms, expectations, differing social institutions and different reward systems.

    This is not just the case for Cho; it is the experience of tens of thousands more like him. That is why many East Asian immigrants' sons carry a burden of suppressed anger and sadness.

    How is it, then, that Cho's sister, also an immigrant child, did not become a social deviant? East Asian societies are patriarchal, and the son's discipline is almost always much tougher than the daughter's.

    Asian parents love their children — but their sons must be taught to be both good and successful while their daughters generally are regarded as being inherently good.

    This means that the daughter can do less wrong; she's given lots of love, but whether she succeeds or not, she is subject to far less criticism by her parents.

    If a daughter raised this way becomes success-oriented she can do well, because she has had less parental criticism (which would turn into self-criticism) than a son. Typically, she has received continual parental love with the same Confucian emphasis on academics that a son would receive.

    When it comes to raising boys, however, Asian parents will typically be very critical of their son's development. Why? For centuries, this is how Asian parents have raised their sons.

    The problem for an Asian immigrant boy in America is that he is also trying to adapt to American school and other Western cultural norms that tell him much of the "constructive" criticism voiced by his parents is invalid.

    Thus, an Asian immigrant son can feel unjustly criticized on all sides — at home, at school, by the larger society and by the popular culture. It is easy to see how he might become lonely and angry.

    Confucian ethics is simply ethics — and the real world isn't always ethical; so Confucian disappointments are always present.

    The Eastern religions, notably Buddhism and Taoism, have psychological comfort measures to deal with these disappointments. These include meditation, spiritual practices and religion-derived maxims.

    In the Cho situation we see:

    • An immigrant's son who might have felt unjustly criticized at home by his parents' Asian ideologies on how to raise a son.

    • An immigrant's son who was evidently criticized and taunted at school.

    • A young man who grew angry and had trouble making friends and girlfriends due to his anger.

    • A Western society without the religious means to soothe the young man's anger.

    • A Western society with fewer social means to soothe his anger.

    There were almost certainly other possible issues:
    Cho's older sister was more successful, which would cause more difficulties for the typical Asian male. Possibly, he had mental illness. Like so many young East Asian immigrants, he carried his anger in silence until it erupted into tragedy.

    Why did Cho's anger translate into cold-blooded murder? Why didn't he become a wife beater or commit suicide, or drink alcoholically and abuse drugs?

    I believe part of the answer is that the tragedy at Columbine offered a new and deadly, destructive outlet for Cho's anger. It seems likely Cho would have seen some kind of twisted retribution for himself in copying the actions of the Columbine shooters, who were also taunted by their peers.

    East Asian immigrants' sons aren't the only ones who experience such deadly frustrations in our Western society. Muslim immigrant sons also frequently feel society treats them unjustly The London subway bombers were Pakistani immigrants' sons.

    So there is the matter of justifiable anger. I understand how that feels. But it by no means confers legitimacy on either Cho's crimes or those of the bombers in Britain.

    The solution is not simply tighter gun control, better psychiatric evaluation controls, or faster emergency response. And, it would be very expensive to stop teasing and taunting in the pre-college years.

    One idea would be to offer courses that teach immigrant youths how to deal with the types of cultural adjustments so many face. Such courses would help these youths see past the cultural issues and unjust parental and peer criticisms, teach them how to handle the teasing and taunting, and more.

    Considering the deadly alternatives, they seem worth trying.
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SkylerKnows
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Oh please. So what? he was bullied. Every person has experienced that ones far more than others but every country, every continent, every race has experienced it. So boo hoo! I have no sympathy. I've been bullied as well but outgrew it. I've been angry so I outgrew it. Kids today are brats. IT's all me me me me. I'd definetely blame the Columbine as well for giving ideas to these kids. Then there's television, video games that probably will not turn you into a killer but will definetely turn the switch on for one that already has a killer mentality.

Give me a break people! Cho was a spoiled brat playing the victim. Kids nowdays walk around like the world owes them something for their failures (socially, financially, etc)

:grr:
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Melissa
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Yes, because if a kid gets slammed into a locker or his head forcibly dunked into a school toilet he obviously deserves it because he plays too many video games. :rolleyes2: Skyler, you're full of sh*t.

And obviously you missed this comment made by his own family:

Quote:
 
Issued by 23-year-old Cho's sister, Cho Sun-kyung, the statement said that her brother was "quiet and reserved," and had "struggled to fit in."

"We never could have envisioned that he was capable of so much violence," the family said.

Quiet and reserved? Struggling to fit in? That hardly sounds like a spoiled brat to me. It sounds more like a textbook example of the kind of kid bullies like to beat up. Tell me, what's a quiet and reserved kid to do when he reaches his breaking point and the school sits back and doesn't stop the bullies that are tormenting him?

Not all kids have the same coping mechanisms. Especially those who are either struggling with mental illness or abuse at home. Not every kid has the mental capacity to "get over" bullying, Skyler. For some, it truly breaks them. Maybe you were picked on or teased, obviously that's not for me to say; but bullying in and of itself is far from harmless. Maybe if the school had stepped in to stop the bullying, Cho wouldn't've felt compelled to purchase a gun.

As I said, I don't condone blowing half the student body away with an Uzi. But I do understand the dark place where it comes from. Bullying has existed since the beginning of time, it's true. The difference is now, after Columbine, bullying victims have found a more dangerous outlet for their frustrations and are taking it by the droves because they feel there's no other way out.

As for you, you might want to try doing a bit of actual research before dismissing something out of hand. Like the video game example you provided; even five year old kids are usually smart enough to know the difference between fantasy and reality. What's next, blaming the suicide rate on rock music? Oh wait, that was in the 80s. Kindly get your head back into the 00s, please.

The "killer mentality" doesn't just come out of nowhere. It's caused by either a mental illness to begin with, or fostered by abuse. Put a gun in an abuse victim's hand and the chances are pretty damn good he or she will kill his or her abuser. We applaud that sort of thing when a battered wife does it, but when the abuse victim is a kid and his abusers are kids, it's met with expressions of horror, a "blame the victim" mentality and cries of "how were we supposed to know?".

To me, there's no difference in either of the cases -- they both can cross any social strata and affect anyone. And yet, the cause of one murder is understood and taken seriously while the cause of the other is dismissed as an immature reaction to "harmless" bullying. Really. Would you tell an abused wife her husband's beatings are harmless? No? Then why tell a kid the beatings he receives at the hands of his peers are "harmless"?

Furthermore, what if it was your kid being bullied? I bet the last thing you'd ever tell him or her is "so what?". Hell, you'd probably have the Board of Education on speed-dial!

Does anybody actually take five seconds to THINK before they judge these situations?

Again, I do not condone what Cho did. I repeat: I do not condone the act of violence. But I understand it. And, in the end, that's probably all Cho wanted; someone to understand. How many more kids, former bullying victims, are going to shoot up schools before we as a culture stop saying "so what?" in answer to bullying?
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SkylerKnows
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How can I be full of sh*t?
Where is your phD, sir/ma'am?

So you're saying you understand what he did, that of all the people that had done him wrong, he's entitled to kill as many innocent people as he can? That's being a selfish SPOILED BRAT (as in I have a huge ego and everything should go my way or else I 'll start killing people, that's how I meant, phD) throwing a MAJOR temper tantrum. I'd say to Cho "Get over yourself. We are all on this earth struggling as well. It's not just you who has problems and has gone through something horrible."
This kid had the opportunity to make a better life, going to an excellent school (Virginia Tech, my school's football rival). At least he didn't live in Africa growing with a fat belly full of worms with flies all over trying to survive from warfare. Cho didn't know what suffering REALLY is.


He said 'You all made me do this'. I am like f**k you! what did all those innocent people do? Cho didn't want to take the blame? What was that? He was abused? Whatever the reason..it does not justify mindless violence. He goes on a killing rampage just to make himself feel superior and it's not his fault? How can you say you understand THAT? What's wrong with you?

So you are saying he was made into a killer? This reminds me of the unbelievable excuse 'the devil made me do it'. It's been proven Cho didn't have anything abnormal in his brain AND you seriously believe his abuse make him into a killer? And even better, that it should be excusable? Is that what you're saying?
It's obvious he had something against those that had more money than he did or that were more popular, beautiful or better than him. IF you are too disrupt about that, then go to college, graduate and get a good job, do something about your appearance, go out, do something, help yourself! If you don't do it, no one will. Do somethign positive. I know it's hard to do it but unfortunately negative actions are what losers do, they want the easy way out.
Cho was blinded by jealousy.

Moving on, I never said that video games/movies/etc are the sole reason for violence but it certainly gives you ideas. I am a death/grindcore/black metal fan (where lyrics are things coming out of your worst nightmares, trust me) and I'd never follow what lyrics say. I'll be the last one to blame music or entertainment in any way.
However, I do believe there are impressionable kids out there who may want to become as 'cool' as those characters. Case and point someone watching 'jackass' might go out and start getting ideas about doing some of those stunts.
The kids from Columbine tried to be 'cool' and followed the Matrix. I believe though that they would have done it without all the flair of the matrix anyways. All they wanted to be was stylish and cool I guess.

My point about the killer mentality is people are more violent that others. People react differently to situations I agree and I'd say Cho may have had some kind of mental problem or abuse (not all mental patients and/or abused people go on killer rampages, do they?) or he was just plainly a selfish person (which is what I am inclined to believe) but we gotta make him responsible for everything he did and admit he was a coward about it (anyone with a gun and armed to the teeth can be brave. Yeah Mr. 'you gotta respect me because I got a gun'. I am sorry but that's a coward and then not wanting to face the consequences of his actions by shooting himself is also a coward act).


To me his bullying problems, depression or social ineptude doesn't justify what he did and by others trying to blame it on that it's also nonsense. Understand that. He was under the illusion he was doing something 'good' for those who are as pathetic as he was. Please. That's feeding his own ego.
If I were one of those people I would have been pissed and I'd have died telling him the pathetic a**h*** he was. I go to school and it angers me that someone I don't even know might shoot me because his mommy and daddy didn't give him enough love and on top of that he is seen as the sympathetic victim?
f**k you Cho! Don't you think I have problems of my own?

There's a difference between thinking about killing your abusers, etc. and another one is to go kill innocent people, students, professors, people who are doing something with their lives, people you don't even know.

It's not like he was some crazy person. He knew right from wrong. He knew what he was doing and he was being selfish blaming others for his problems.
He was not stupid and he was definetely not a victim to me. I agree somebody should have helped this kid. He had issues. Where was his family? His parents? Where were they? They never visited him. They never intervened. You love your kid, you do an intervention. What a sad soul.

If it were MY KID, I would have done everything in my power to help him (talk to other parents, get him out of school), counseling, even institutionalize him if necessary, etc...The so called tough love.

And as far as 'understanding' goes, I don't understand why so many people saw this guy's cries for help and nobody did anything, and even if they tried, ultimately, it was HIS responsibility to help himself, the bastard. He rather took the easy way out.

Plain and simple.

Back to you phD in Psychology. :rolleyes2:
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Melissa
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Where is your phD, sir/ma'am?

I never said I had a PhD, smartass.

Quote:
 
He said 'You all made me do this'. I am like f**k you! what did all those innocent people do? Cho didn't want to take the blame? What was that? He was abused? Whatever the reason..it does not justified mindless violence. He goes on a rampage and it's not his fault? How can you say you understand THAT? What's wrong with you?

No sh*t. What part of "I don't condone it, but I can understand it" did you not get? I only said it about 50 billion times here in this thread!

Quote:
 
My point about the killer mentality is people are more violent that others. People react differently to stimuli and I'd say Cho may have had some kind of mental problem or abuse

...which is precisely what I said in my previous post. Go back and read my previous post again.

Quote:
 
If it were MY KID, I would have done everything in my power to help him, counseling, even institutionalize him if necessary. The so called tough love.

Hence my previous comment about having the Board of Ed. on speed-dial. You basically agreed with me, that bullying is not something to be ignored. WHICH WAS MY ORIGINAL POINT. (The caps are for emphasis, not shouting. Maybe if I put the main thrust of my points in caps, you'll read them better.)

You're acting like I've just said "Go on, buy a gun! It's ok to blow away people you're pissed off at!" When I clearly said no such thing. Go back and read my previous posts again, more slowly this time. And stop putting words in my mouth, because nowhere did I state violence or killing is ok. Nor did I state he has no responsibility for the act of violence he committed.

What I said it was that it's understandable. In case you haven't figured out, there's a difference there.

Quote:
 
So you are saying he was made into a killer? This reminds me of the unbelievable excuse 'the devil made me do it'. It's been proven Cho didn't have anything abnormal in his brain AND you seriously believe his abuse make him into a killer? And even better, that it should be excusable? Is that what you're saying?

NO I DID NOT. For the hundredth time, I DO NOT CONDONE THE ACT OF VIOLENCE, BUT I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY HE DID IT. (Emphasis, again.) Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, don't be so f***ing thick all your life. :rolleyes2:

Quote:
 
Plain and simple.

If it was so plain and simple, why'd it take you at least four edits to state your point? All of which is based on reading into my posts what was never there, and ignoring comments I clearly stated. Are you trying to piss me off?
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SkylerKnows
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Now I am a smart ass? Ok first I was full of sh*t now I am a smart ass.
And I noticed those were your first sentences out of every post address to me.

Is there the possiblity to address all the points I made other than calling people names? I can see all you do is repeat what you just said. By not condoning that violence but 'understanding' it to me it is sympathizing with Cho and that's all there is to it. I didn't address every point (tried to) but I wanted that point to be discussed specifically...the so called 'understanding'.

Bullying is not right but I still dont' think we should feel sorry for the bullied person who's done something terrible. I have no sympathy for anyone who blames all their problems on their crappy childhood. I should know.

The reason it took me 4+ edits is because English is my third language. I speak Spanish and French (I lived in France the longest so I considered it my second language). So I usually think in Spanish then in French and the grammar is not like English's so I have to do adjustments.

Now I am being punished for being a perfectionist.

I am sorry I don't do everything half assed.

I am not trying to piss you off, you pissed yourself off.
How can I piss you off when I didn't call you childish names. All I did was point out and discuss your so called 'sympathy' for the killer.
You were the one who said I was full of sh*t and I was just stating my opinion...like we are not allowed to have opinions differently than those of the admins.

And yes, this topic hits too close to home if that's your problem.

And yes, I keep editing my posts.
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Melissa
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Ok then, since English is not your first language, allow me to elucidate on the terms I've used even further than I already have. To do that, we'll just whip out my trusty little (virtual) dictionary.

The only reason I've repeated myself thus far was to hammer a simple point home that obviously went over your head. And since it still went over your head anyway, I'll do you the favour of defining my verbiage. Since English is not your first language and all, it's only fair I do so.

To condone is defined as overlooking or excusing bad behaviour. If you condone something, you treat it as unimportant, and basically look the other way. If a woman stays with her cheating husband, she condones the cheating behaviour.

If you do not condone something, you are not overlooking it or excusing it. I do not condone Cho's killing, therefore I'm not excusing or dismissing it. Have I made myself clear so far? Good!

To understand is to know, to comprehend. If you understand something, you recognize the meaning of it internally and are smart enough to be consciously aware of it. To understand does not mean you sympathize, only that you have information. It's the presence of knowledge of a particular circumstance. That is all.

To say I understand does not mean I sympathize, especially when it's qualified by not condoning. In plain English: I know why someone would do something like that, but I do not accept the violence and I am not looking the other way or absolving him of wrongdoing.

Now, have I made myself clear? Stating I understand does not automatically mean I sympathize with him. Killing is bad, period. (That much is clear.) But that does not mean the motivations of a killer are beyond human understanding. Comprenez-vous maintenant, Skyler?
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flea dip
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Directed at SkylerKnows:

I can certainly understand your initial dismay at being told you are "full of sh*t."

However, you continue to make an unsupported, untrue assertion in your posts, even though it has been explained to you many times over why your remarks are untrue.

Nobody in this thread condones or approves of what Cho did.

You said,
  • Bullying is not right but I still dont' think it's an excuse for killing.
And nobody in this thread said that "bullying is an excuse for killing."

Please find me one quote by another member in this thread who said that "bullying is an excuse for killing."

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SkylerKnows
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flea dip
May 3 2007, 01:36 PM
Directed at SkylerKnows:

I can certainly understand your initial dismay at being told you are "full of sh*t."

However, you continue to make an unsupported, untrue assertion in your posts, even though it has been explained to you many times over why your remarks are untrue.

Nobody in this thread condones or approves of what Cho did.

You said,
  • Bullying is not right but I still dont' think it's an excuse for killing.


And nobody in this thread said that "bullying is an excuse for killing."

Please find me one quote by another member in this thread who said that "bullying is an excuse for killing."

I just hate the sympathizing as if I am suppose to feel sorry for someone who's had a bad childhood. That's all.

Somebody here said they understand it because it comes from a 'dark place' or whatever. Or are they playing both sides of the issue?

I think you're missing the point. From what I got from the previous post is that is understandable. I don't understand such violence and I was addressing those issues as in what do you mean understand? as in poor cho, he was abused and let's give the guy a break??

Did I understand that correctly? To me when somebody says "i dont' approve it but I understand it" I sense sympathy for something who doesn't deserve it.
And if I continue saying it so it's because that's what I 'understood'. I wasn't being a smart ass or full of sh*t.
I can't point out when it was said that they approved violence but when you say you understand where it comes from especially violence at innocent people, it makes me think there's something wrong with this person.

No violence or killings should be understandable. That's all I am saying.
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Melissa
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I was the one that said that it comes from a dark place. Again, saying I understand doesn't mean I actually approve. You have to admit, if someone's driven to kill they've obviously got a lot of rage in them that they can't -- or perhaps don't want -- to control. Wouldn't that be considered a "dark place"?

I defined precisely what I meant in the previous post. I'm not "playing both sides".
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flea dip
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I think you're missing the point. From what I got from the previous post is that is understandable. I don't understand such violence and I was addressing those issues as in what do you mean understand? as in poor cho, he was abused and let's give the guy a break??

Knight Muzic already explained in a previous post what she meant by "understand." You may want to go back and re-read Knight's post.

Now, can you find one quote in this thread where someone wrote something along the lines of,

"Poor Cho, he was abused, so it is acceptable that he shot people, and we should not hold him responsible in any way, shape or form for his actions" -?

Please find such a view or comment in this thread and post it for us.




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SkylerKnows
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knightmuzic
May 3 2007, 02:03 PM
I was the one that said that it comes from a dark place. Again, saying I understand doesn't mean I actually approve. You have to admit, if someone's driven to kill they've obviously got a lot of rage in them that they can't -- or perhaps don't want -- to control. Wouldn't that be considered a "dark place"?

I defined precisely what I meant in the previous post. I'm not "playing both sides".

And that's where I come from. If they don't want to control it, you're selfish, narcicisstic a**h***. Anyone can control their anger by going to therapy and doing something positive. I do it. You do it. Everyone can do it. Another thing is if they want to.
Please. You make it sound like Cho was helpless. He had all the resources. People who cared about him, professors, counselors. He could have done something for his life.

Quote:
 

Tell me, what's a quiet and reserved kid to do when he reaches his breaking point and the school sits back and doesn't stop the bullies that are tormenting him?

Not all kids have the same coping mechanisms. Especially those who are either struggling with mental illness or abuse at home. Not every kid has the mental capacity to "get over" bullying, Skyler. For some, it truly breaks them.

Not all kids have the same coping mechanisms. Especially those who are either struggling with mental illness or abuse at home. Not every kid has the mental capacity to "get over" bullying, Skyler. For some, it truly breaks them. Maybe you were picked on or teased, obviously that's not for me to say; but bullying in and of itself is far from harmless. Maybe if the school had stepped in to stop the bullying, Cho wouldn't've felt compelled to purchase a gun.

As I said, I don't condone blowing half the student body away with an Uzi. But I do understand the dark place ...



To me this is trying to explain the unexplainable. Please.
So this is not saying that whatj's a kid to do? The kid had no choice but to go bezerk?
And then you switch by going you dont' condone it. I actually lost it after that second paragraph...

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knightmuzic
May 3 2007, 01:36 PM
Ok then, since English is not your first language, allow me to elucidate on the terms I've used even further than I already have. To do that, we'll just whip out my trusty little (virtual) dictionary.

The only reason I've repeated myself thus far was to hammer a simple point home that obviously went over your head. And since it still went over your head anyway, I'll do you the favour of defining my verbiage. Since English is not your first language and all, it's only fair I do so.

To condone is defined as overlooking or excusing bad behaviour. If you condone something, you treat it as unimportant, and basically look the other way. If a woman stays with her cheating husband, she condones the cheating behaviour.

If you do not condone something, you are not overlooking it or excusing it. I do not condone Cho's killing, therefore I'm not excusing or dismissing it. Have I made myself clear so far? Good!

To understand is to know, to comprehend. If you understand something, you recognize the meaning of it internally and are smart enough to be consciously aware of it. To understand does not mean you sympathize, only that you have information. It's the presence of knowledge of a particular circumstance. That is all.

To say I understand does not mean I sympathize, especially when it's qualified by not condoning. In plain English: I know why someone would do something like that, but I do not accept the violence and I am not looking the other way or absolving him of wrongdoing.

Now, have I made myself clear? Stating I understand does not automatically mean I sympathize with him. Killing is bad, period. (That much is clear.) But that does not mean the motivations of a killer are beyond human understanding. Comprenez-vous maintenant, Skyler?

Just because I am a foreigner, you dont' need to treat me like I am from outer space in a rather not so pleasing tone I might add.
I go to college, you know? My English is not that bad, I'd like to think. Even though at times it might look like it.

I know what I read and I know I understood correctly.

You don't have to go all the extra mile here. I know what condone means. And I know what understand means.

"Tell me, what's a quiet and reserved kid to do when he reaches his breaking point and the school sits back and doesn't stop the bullies that are tormenting him?....Maybe if the school had stepped in to stop the bullying, Cho wouldn't've felt compelled to purchase a gun."

What does that quote mean?

When you say you understand what someone is going through, you're showing 'sympathy'. When you say you understand, you're saying 'yeah I've thought about it too? just like you!' or "I understand, I identify with you" or "I know what you mean" or "yup that explains it".

What kind of understanding you have with Cho? That you know what he was going through? I hope you dont' go on a killing rampage as well.
Although I seriously doubt this can be 'comprehend' by any normal emotionably stable person

.
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