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Topic Started: Jan 29 2014, 01:20 PM (2,497 Views)
Scott
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JediColt
Jan 30 2014, 09:15 PM
Trading away half your starters in the off season is the kind of crap the Browns do. Yeah T Rich may look like crap now, but giving up on a guy after a year is the kind of stuff you do when you go 4-12 every year.

Sometimes it takes time for a guy to get it together.
The bottom line is getting players that can play, It's about getting the most bang for your buck. If we had a great roster, Especially on defense then yeah we shouldn't be trying to turn over the roster, The fact is we need an infusion of talent on the defense. We have some cap space, We have some moves that can possibly be cost effective in getting us more cap space with the idea being to upgrade the roster, That is the ultimate goal every offseason, Upgrade the talent level. The Colt's aren't Cleveland, They aren't blowing up the franchise every year or two and starting over. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes in judging talent. If you make a mistake, Swallow the pride and try and do better.
As far as Richardson, I like you hope he does better next year, I still sure the hell wish we had the first round draft pick though. Cleveland as a franchise indeed sucks, They fleeced the Colts on this one though.
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mike06181
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Reddings cap hit can be adjusted by extending him. He has a good 3 yrs or so left in him. I would give him a 2 yr extended contract and move some of that cap hit out into that. He seams to like it here and should sign a reasonable deal where that 3rd yr would be hopefully be as a rotational player.
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rccolts
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errsay
Jan 30 2014, 07:02 PM
Would anyone trade Powers for Toler? I know I wouldn't.
I would!

Powers is a really nice corner for a cover-2 defense, but he looked weak when he was asked to play press-man coverage in the Colts 3-4 defense in 2012.

Toler fits the Colts defense - Powers doesn't. And besides one of your complaints about Toler is his injury history, yet prior to this year their injury histories were almost identical. This year for the Cardinals was the first time Powers managed to play an entire season without missing any games due to injury.
Edited by rccolts, Jan 31 2014, 08:03 PM.
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Warhorse
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JediColt
Jan 30 2014, 09:15 PM
Trading away half your starters in the off season is the kind of crap the Browns do. Yeah T Rich may look like crap now, but giving up on a guy after a year is the kind of stuff you do when you go 4-12 every year.

Sometimes it takes time for a guy to get it together.
Yea...........its funny how Brown was the guy who was the first round bust for three years, then he has a good season, and he is left alone. Trent comes to the team during the season without a training camp, and has to work on the playbook on the fly, and is now the first round bust flavor of the month.

He might not turn out to be worth the first rounder we gave up for him. Stating that after three carries would be considered fact by some. Saying it after 3 games would be considered fact by some. I choose to see how he impacts the team by the end of next years first quarter.

So if we had cut D Brown at the end of the previous season, he gets signed by the Pats.....and he did for them what he did for us this year, would those who were tired of his being injured and getting arm tackled then recognize that he took three years to get his NFL on?

I saw plays where Trent was as hard to bring down as Edge ever was.... even harder. I wouldn't let that walk lightly.
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JediColt
Pro Bowl'er
90% of Colts fans HATED Reggie Wayne his first 2 years and considered him a bust. He got more flack than just about any other pick we had. Sometimes it takes time for something to click.
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Posted ImageBent20
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I think part of that with Reggie was that we'd had some other receivers from recent drafts who flamed out. Pathon and Green. For those too young to remember, imagine if Hilton and Brazill completely failed to show and were always hurt to start their career with Luck and then we draft a guy in a couple of years and he's slow to get going, too.
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AustinColtsFan79
Pro Bowl'er
I actually like Richardson as a back, and think he could be a stud if we ever build the oline that pags and pep seem to think we will. His style is just not built for what we asked him to run behind this season. I haven't given up on him yet, he's got all the tools at least.
Edited by AustinColtsFan79, Feb 1 2014, 03:02 AM.
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Scott
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AustinColtsFan79
Feb 1 2014, 03:01 AM
I actually like Richardson as a back, and think he could be a stud if we ever build the oline that pags and pep seem to think we will. His style is just not built for what we asked him to run behind this season. I haven't given up on him yet, he's got all the tools at least.
I hope you are correct, I have concerns in regard to him having the "tools", It appeared to me he had poor vision in regard to where to find a crease, He didn't look to have very good acceleration getting into a hole when one was actually available. I do think he would do much better if we had a good O-line and I agree that he is hard to bring down for the most part, The reality for me is that when I look at his skill set I just see nothing special that makes me think he is a first round talent. If he is going to continue to be a Colt I sure hope he proves me dead wrong, It won't be the first time.
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
The great backs seem to have a rythym when running the ball. TRich doesn't have that with what I saw from him last year. He reminds me more of a bowling ball trying to knock down pins. Heavy one's at that. Granted a small sample size, but the excuses are exempt next year.
rccolts
Jan 31 2014, 08:02 PM
errsay
Jan 30 2014, 07:02 PM
Would anyone trade Powers for Toler? I know I wouldn't.
I would!

Powers is a really nice corner for a cover-2 defense, but he looked weak when he was asked to play press-man coverage in the Colts 3-4 defense in 2012.

Toler fits the Colts defense - Powers doesn't. And besides one of your complaints about Toler is his injury history, yet prior to this year their injury histories were almost identical. This year for the Cardinals was the first time Powers managed to play an entire season without missing any games due to injury.
You are correct about Toler "fits" the current defense better, in that he's bigger than Powers and is regarded as a good tackler. He's also very good after the INT, as is Powers. Toler cost 15.5, Powers cost 10.5. Toler missed the last 1.5 years in Az. due to a torn ACL, which the organization grew a bit angry about, including his lack of rehab committment. Powers has also missed much time in his brief career, but played and played well last year, for the Cards. The Cards played alot of exotic defenses last year, and blitzed more than any team in the league, especially on forst down. Powers also played opposite Peterson, so you know who got most of the opponents' attention. It's really an apples/oranges debate. I just ain't very enamored with Toler. Sazeech his each own.
Edited by errsay, Feb 1 2014, 10:13 AM.
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JediColt
Pro Bowl'er
Bent20
Feb 1 2014, 01:27 AM
I think part of that with Reggie was that we'd had some other receivers from recent drafts who flamed out. Pathon and Green. For those too young to remember, imagine if Hilton and Brazill completely failed to show and were always hurt to start their career with Luck and then we draft a guy in a couple of years and he's slow to get going, too.
I think its just that fans have no patience and are always quick to dump a player or coach rather than give anyone time to develop.

We had people saying the Colts should bench Luck and just tank the rest of the season during one of our losses this year. We had people calling for the firing of Pagano this year. He's coached 2 years, gone 11-5 both years, had the most injured team in the entire NFL this year, and fought lukemia last year.

Its crap teams like the Browns that fire their coaches every year and dump players immediately and never get better. What if the Cowboys had traded Troy Aikman and fired Jimmy Johnson after their 1-15 season? Instead they stayed the course and won 3 Super Bowls.

Its ridiculous to see some of the knee jerk reactions some fans have, and then see how poorly we evaluate players. There was no bigger whipping boy on the Colts than Tim Jennings, and wouldn't you know? He turns into one of the best corners in the league. So I find it hilarious to read the list of all the players we should cut just to save some cap room, ALL of whom have been with the team 2 years or less.
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
Alot of fans wanted to dump Pep after 10 games.
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Posted ImageIndyColt45
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Yeah, but those guys have a point...
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Warhorse
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JediColt
Feb 1 2014, 11:49 AM
Bent20
Feb 1 2014, 01:27 AM
I think part of that with Reggie was that we'd had some other receivers from recent drafts who flamed out. Pathon and Green. For those too young to remember, imagine if Hilton and Brazill completely failed to show and were always hurt to start their career with Luck and then we draft a guy in a couple of years and he's slow to get going, too.
I think its just that fans have no patience and are always quick to dump a player or coach rather than give anyone time to develop.

We had people saying the Colts should bench Luck and just tank the rest of the season during one of our losses this year. We had people calling for the firing of Pagano this year. He's coached 2 years, gone 11-5 both years, had the most injured team in the entire NFL this year, and fought lukemia last year.

Its crap teams like the Browns that fire their coaches every year and dump players immediately and never get better. What if the Cowboys had traded Troy Aikman and fired Jimmy Johnson after their 1-15 season? Instead they stayed the course and won 3 Super Bowls.

Its ridiculous to see some of the knee jerk reactions some fans have, and then see how poorly we evaluate players. There was no bigger whipping boy on the Colts than Tim Jennings, and wouldn't you know? He turns into one of the best corners in the league. So I find it hilarious to read the list of all the players we should cut just to save some cap room, ALL of whom have been with the team 2 years or less.
Word... to the 10th power.
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MrCCCs
Pro Bowl'er
Exaggeration aside, we are really just talking about a few players. Many were listed, but only 3 (Satele, Toler, and Shephard) have any real support around here. I don't know how Richardson got into this discussion, but nobody is calling for him to be cut as I understand it. Not excited about him, certainly, but not asking to have him cut.

Walden, RJF, Redding, all might not be worth the coin being paid them but most would be fine with retaining their services.

Brown was a huge surprise this year. He had terrible instincts and vision causing him to hesitate and 'dance' the first 3 years of his career. He found a great rhythm running up the middle and with some open field running in the short passing game. I have no idea what to make of that, other than I don't think it has anything to do with his contract year and everything to do with how/when/and where he was utilized. I'd be okay resigning him but I think he's gone.
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
IndyColt45
Feb 1 2014, 12:25 PM
Yeah, but those guys have a point...
Where? On their head? This offense did pretty well considering who was missing and who was doing the blocking. Pep did a fine job of adjusting to the given personnel, as the season wore on.
MrCCCs
Feb 1 2014, 01:16 PM
Exaggeration aside, we are really just talking about a few players. Many were listed, but only 3 (Satele, Toler, and Shephard) have any real support around here. I don't know how Richardson got into this discussion, but nobody is calling for him to be cut as I understand it. Not excited about him, certainly, but not asking to have him cut.

Walden, RJF, Redding, all might not be worth the coin being paid them but most would be fine with retaining their services.

Brown was a huge surprise this year. He had terrible instincts and vision causing him to hesitate and 'dance' the first 3 years of his career. He found a great rhythm running up the middle and with some open field running in the short passing game. I have no idea what to make of that, other than I don't think it has anything to do with his contract year and everything to do with how/when/and where he was utilized. I'd be okay resigning him but I think he's gone.
Satele sucks, and that's not knee jerk. It's common sense. Toler is an injury prone malingerer. Historical fact. Shepherd is an average talent at best. He doesn't fit well with Freeman, who needs a thumper to pair with. Still not sure who Conner had pictures of. I have no problem with bringing back Walden, RJF and certainly Redding. Even Landry, at this point.
Edited by errsay, Feb 1 2014, 02:03 PM.
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cedjss
Pro Bowl'er
Do me Satele has got to be cut, could care less about money he is making. He to me is not very good. Need to find a much better RG than what we have currently.
On defense well we beat Denver, plus Seattle and San Fran. Those 3 teams are great.
Plus we beat KC twice. I just want to improve. With Luck all things are possible. But the same thing when we had #18. How can we improve?
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
By getting better players, usually.
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Scott
Veteran
cedjss
Feb 1 2014, 03:05 PM
Do me Satele has got to be cut, could care less about money he is making. He to me is not very good. Need to find a much better RG than what we have currently.
On defense well we beat Denver, plus Seattle and San Fran. Those 3 teams are great.
Plus we beat KC twice. I just want to improve. With Luck all things are possible. But the same thing when we had #18. How can we improve?
I agree completely that Center and RG have got to be improved. As far as the defense, Would still love a stout NG, However that is likely a pipe dream this offseason. CB and linebacker can both use attention. The bottom line though is the O-line has to be solidified, You can see some bad habits creeping in with Luck and I think it has everything to do with having a substandard line, Especially the interior.
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JediColt
Pro Bowl'er
Is it really just a list of a few players though? We're talking about cutting guys who are signed for the cap savings. Six of our starters are free agents, so they can't be on the list, Luck, Wayne, Hilton, and Mathis are Pro Bowlers so only the insane would suggest we cut them. That's nearly half our starters, of the rest of the starters, some of them have incredibly cheap contracts like Freeman, Thornton, and Allen. So far we have 9 players who have been mentioned, and only 3 that make any serious money that havent' been mentioned, Cherilus, Castonzo and Landry. Landry and Cherilus are in the same boat as Walden, in that its more expensive to cut them than to keep them, and I heard plenty of people say they wanted to get rid of Castonzo during the season.

So we're really contemplating everyone on the roster who isn't a Pro Bowler here.
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LACOLTSFAN
Pro Bowl'er
JediColt
Jan 30 2014, 09:15 PM
Trading away half your starters in the off season is the kind of crap the Browns do. Yeah T Rich may look like crap now, but giving up on a guy after a year is the kind of stuff you do when you go 4-12 every year.

Sometimes it takes time for a guy to get it together.
This was an email in Bill Simmon's mailbag. Very funny.


"Brandon Weeden played in eight games this season. The Browns won two of those games. In one win (Baltimore), Weeden threw just two passes. The other? A 37-24 win over Buffalo. Who was Buffalo’s defensive coordinator in that game? New Browns head coach Mike Pettine. Ladies and gentlemen, your 2014 Browns!"
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MrCCCs
Pro Bowl'er
JediColt
Feb 1 2014, 06:10 PM

So we're really contemplating everyone on the roster who isn't a Pro Bowler here.
I guess some may be, but I wasn't. Apologies if it came off that way. I thought the original list was guys on the potential bubble, and the rest were no-brainers. From the original list only Toler is the one with much controversy. That's all I was focusing on.

Although sometimes turnover is needed. After this season I think our defense would benefit rather than be hurt by some turnover, provided we sign the right players (that's a big if). Trying to patch our defense again with mid-tier guys or rookies could solidify it a little, but bringing in proven playmakers (expensive ones, sure) would be nice for a change.
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JediColt
Pro Bowl'er
Well I meant the thread in general not any one person. Honestly most people don't seem to want to dump everyone, but I find it odd that there are any fans out there that want to turn over the whole team every year, especially when we went 11-5, won a playoff game, beat BOTH teams playing in the Super Bowl and were the most injured team in football.
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cedjss
Pro Bowl'er
No the thread was started to talk Colt football and improvements and possible moves the Colts could do
Wish the colts were in Super Bowl. But since they are not, we need improvements
Mainly at Center and RG
Of course Thornton did not do much at LG either
Our defense got torn up by Pats in playoffs and we gave up 44 points in playoffs to the Chiefs. So our defense needs some improvement

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Scott
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JediColt
Feb 1 2014, 11:13 PM
Well I meant the thread in general not any one person. Honestly most people don't seem to want to dump everyone, but I find it odd that there are any fans out there that want to turn over the whole team every year, especially when we went 11-5, won a playoff game, beat BOTH teams playing in the Super Bowl and were the most injured team in football.
Jedi, My problem is really this with the defense, It really has not improved since we moved on from the Polian regime, The owner preached he wanted a better defense, We hired a defensive minded head coach and we spent some cash in free agency on improving the defense, I am just not convinced the money was spent wisely. Overall it appears to me we are still not stout enough up the middle with our defense. It also appears to me that we tried to get bigger in the Lbing corp and may have sacrificed too much speed, My perception was we really struggled to get to the outside on far too many running plays.
I know we had a ton of injuries this year, However the defense was not the unit that was decimated by injuries. On offense I can only name two spots that I really want to see change, Center and RG. On defense I think we still have a huge amount of question marks and it's not like this was even a middle of the road defensive unit, I believe we ended up in the bottom 3rd in the league in most of the significant defensive stats. For the most part we have a large group of very average players on defense. Mathis is the only truly superior defensive player on the unit.
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Posted ImageBent20
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I'm confident the defense will continue to improve personnel wise, but if the slow starts on both sides of the ball continue then Pagano and company will continue to receive criticism.
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Warhorse
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Landry must still be trying to put his ass out after the playoffs and how many times he was burned.
Scott
Feb 1 2014, 11:32 PM
JediColt
Feb 1 2014, 11:13 PM
Well I meant the thread in general not any one person. Honestly most people don't seem to want to dump everyone, but I find it odd that there are any fans out there that want to turn over the whole team every year, especially when we went 11-5, won a playoff game, beat BOTH teams playing in the Super Bowl and were the most injured team in football.
Jedi, My problem is really this with the defense, It really has not improved since we moved on from the Polian regime, The owner preached he wanted a better defense, We hired a defensive minded head coach and we spent some cash in free agency on improving the defense, I am just not convinced the money was spent wisely. Overall it appears to me we are still not stout enough up the middle with our defense. It also appears to me that we tried to get bigger in the Lbing corp and may have sacrificed too much speed, My perception was we really struggled to get to the outside on far too many running plays.
I know we had a ton of injuries this year, However the defense was not the unit that was decimated by injuries. On offense I can only name two spots that I really want to see change, Center and RG. On defense I think we still have a huge amount of question marks and it's not like this was even a middle of the road defensive unit, I believe we ended up in the bottom 3rd in the league in most of the significant defensive stats. For the most part we have a large group of very average players on defense. Mathis is the only truly superior defensive player on the unit.
This years D was vastly better at some things than the past, and vastly worse at time than the past.

But overall, when they stay gap sound, this defense is tougher and stouter than any during the Polian era, imo. I see this D as one that makes more mental errors than previous D's. Past defenses saw 2 or 3 guys being dragged down the field...not anymore.
Edited by Warhorse, Feb 2 2014, 01:31 AM.
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TheDodo
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Pro Bowl'er
Statistically this defense might not seem like a huge improvement over Polian era, but when you watch it it feels much better 90% of the time. It struggled with consistency, but I think that has a lot to do with Mathis being the only real standout player. I think this defense is primed to make a big jump statistically if Grigson is able to find a couple standout players at key positions to add to the mix.

Most of the positions could be upgraded, but you don't need to upgrade very many of them to have a huge effect on the defense. Getting a stud at DT would have a huge ripple effect across the board, allowing everyone else to be more effective. I also think finding some MLB upgrades would be huge. It would be nice to get an upgrade at S, but I don't think it should be a priority over DT and MLB.

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Scott
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TheDodo
Feb 2 2014, 06:05 AM
Statistically this defense might not seem like a huge improvement over Polian era, but when you watch it it feels much better 90% of the time. It struggled with consistency, but I think that has a lot to do with Mathis being the only real standout player. I think this defense is primed to make a big jump statistically if Grigson is able to find a couple standout players at key positions to add to the mix.

Most of the positions could be upgraded, but you don't need to upgrade very many of them to have a huge effect on the defense. Getting a stud at DT would have a huge ripple effect across the board, allowing everyone else to be more effective. I also think finding some MLB upgrades would be huge. It would be nice to get an upgrade at S, but I don't think it should be a priority over DT and MLB.

I agree with this overall, That is kind of why I have reservations about how Grigson has approached this rebuilding process, Personally I would rather have signed a couple of high caliber players last offseason and a couple more this offseason instead of the approach that was taken. While it has been exciting to see the team get competitive quickly, In some ways I feel we truly haven't laid the groundwork to be a true title contender. We have a lot of pieces but the foundation is still lacking IMO.
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
This defense is still 4 good players away from being considered "good".
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
According to spotrac,currently 33M or so under the threshold. Cutting Satele, Toler, RJF would put us around 49M under...and much of it wouldn't be counted as "dead" money. Plus, I hear the cap may be going up around another 2M. If Grigson gets the wakeup call, we could be armed and dangerous. I can't see where cutting any of these players would result in regret, while the savings could net some real impact players this time around. Do it, Grigson.
Edited by errsay, Feb 10 2014, 03:07 PM.
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