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Cap cuts and savings
Topic Started: Jan 29 2014, 01:20 PM (2,496 Views)
BlueKoolaid
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Scott
Feb 1 2014, 11:32 PM
On defense I think we still have a huge amount of question marks and it's not like this was even a middle of the road defensive unit, I believe we ended up in the bottom 3rd in the league in most of the significant defensive stats.
We were ranked 9th in points allowed. (21st the year before) We were actually right in the middle, once you average most the stats out, if not better. I think that goes to show that Grigson might be on to something with the way he addressed positions through FA. If Toler is healthy, we probably do even better. Still need a stud or two up front to help Mathis, and a stud DB to help out Davis once he's re-signed, but I see the strategy and I see that Pagano can work with mid-tier talent and get a little more from them at times. Would like to see what he can do with more high-end talent, now.

And, Jedi, you're exaggerating. No one wants to cut half the team. But when you're looking at ALL of your options, a lot of names are gonna be brought up. You can't just look at a couple guys when you're still trying to build and improve a team. You have to look at the whole roster. Fact is, we can improve at a lot of positions. Realistically we wont, but we gotta at least try at some, right?

Happy to see it's been whittled down a lot, actually. Due to contracts and lack of playing time, a lot of guys will stick around it seems. At least until final cuts, which are a long way away. But I doubt anyone discussed gets cut right now. The guys mentioned gotta know they're on the fence, though, which should make for great competition.

My question now is what is Grigs gonna do with our FA's and other FA's, and is he gonna be more focused on certain positions when it comes to improving the team, even if one of those mid-tier guys are already there? Is there someone out there that he KNOWS will improve this team, and will he pay them to join us, possibly hamstringing our depth and ability to re-sign others in the future? Basically, what is Grigs gonna do now that he's gotten his feet wet and has some of the pieces in place that he wanted?
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
Jedi exaggerating? Surely you jest.

The issue with hamstringing the team's ability to sign young core players going forward, is you pay the bulk of new F.A. contracts up front loaded for the next 2 years. In fact, Grigs can easily trim Landry and Walden in 2015 if so desired.
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JediColt
Pro Bowl'er
Well, its not much of an exagerration when errsay's spent the last few posts saying he wants to cut 4 defensive starters we just signed last year.

I'm not saying the defense is fine as is, we definitely need to improve there, but this idea that we need to cut several starters that just joined the team is ridiculous.

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Scott
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BlueKoolaid
Feb 11 2014, 10:53 AM
Scott
Feb 1 2014, 11:32 PM
On defense I think we still have a huge amount of question marks and it's not like this was even a middle of the road defensive unit, I believe we ended up in the bottom 3rd in the league in most of the significant defensive stats.
We were ranked 9th in points allowed. (21st the year before) We were actually right in the middle, once you average most the stats out, if not better. I think that goes to show that Grigson might be on to something with the way he addressed positions through FA. If Toler is healthy, we probably do even better. Still need a stud or two up front to help Mathis, and a stud DB to help out Davis once he's re-signed, but I see the strategy and I see that Pagano can work with mid-tier talent and get a little more from them at times. Would like to see what he can do with more high-end talent, now.

And, Jedi, you're exaggerating. No one wants to cut half the team. But when you're looking at ALL of your options, a lot of names are gonna be brought up. You can't just look at a couple guys when you're still trying to build and improve a team. You have to look at the whole roster. Fact is, we can improve at a lot of positions. Realistically we wont, but we gotta at least try at some, right?

Happy to see it's been whittled down a lot, actually. Due to contracts and lack of playing time, a lot of guys will stick around it seems. At least until final cuts, which are a long way away. But I doubt anyone discussed gets cut right now. The guys mentioned gotta know they're on the fence, though, which should make for great competition.

My question now is what is Grigs gonna do with our FA's and other FA's, and is he gonna be more focused on certain positions when it comes to improving the team, even if one of those mid-tier guys are already there? Is there someone out there that he KNOWS will improve this team, and will he pay them to join us, possibly hamstringing our depth and ability to re-sign others in the future? Basically, what is Grigs gonna do now that he's gotten his feet wet and has some of the pieces in place that he wanted?
Playoffs: Colts gave up 44 pts, 43 pts in their two games, This is where I look for improvement and frankly I think it's hard to argue that these performances were any better than any year during the previous regime. I am not trying to be an Ass, I am just going off of what was preached when the regime change was made. A better ground game, A better defense and a team built to win in January (ie) Better rushing attack, Better defense. I still think it's safe to say their is alot of room for improvement no matter how you want to look at stats.
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
If you're an ass, that makes Jedi a dumbass. You're absolutely correct in making the point about how much and how obvious the defense struggled in those 2 games, against 2 teams not known for their offense. And yes, I'd cut Satele, Toler, RJF and Shepherd in an instant. I'd cut Landry too, if it made a drop of fiscal sense. I say this because I want some impact players for a change. Bad enough, we're missing 3 draft picks, including our first rounder.

Re-sign Davis, while signing Arthur Jones, Jairus Byrd and Brandon Spikes...and then talk to me. Anyone that wants to keep that crap can have them.
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TheDodo
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Pro Bowl'er
Scott
Feb 11 2014, 06:06 PM
BlueKoolaid
Feb 11 2014, 10:53 AM
Scott
Feb 1 2014, 11:32 PM
On defense I think we still have a huge amount of question marks and it's not like this was even a middle of the road defensive unit, I believe we ended up in the bottom 3rd in the league in most of the significant defensive stats.
We were ranked 9th in points allowed. (21st the year before) We were actually right in the middle, once you average most the stats out, if not better. I think that goes to show that Grigson might be on to something with the way he addressed positions through FA. If Toler is healthy, we probably do even better. Still need a stud or two up front to help Mathis, and a stud DB to help out Davis once he's re-signed, but I see the strategy and I see that Pagano can work with mid-tier talent and get a little more from them at times. Would like to see what he can do with more high-end talent, now.

And, Jedi, you're exaggerating. No one wants to cut half the team. But when you're looking at ALL of your options, a lot of names are gonna be brought up. You can't just look at a couple guys when you're still trying to build and improve a team. You have to look at the whole roster. Fact is, we can improve at a lot of positions. Realistically we wont, but we gotta at least try at some, right?

Happy to see it's been whittled down a lot, actually. Due to contracts and lack of playing time, a lot of guys will stick around it seems. At least until final cuts, which are a long way away. But I doubt anyone discussed gets cut right now. The guys mentioned gotta know they're on the fence, though, which should make for great competition.

My question now is what is Grigs gonna do with our FA's and other FA's, and is he gonna be more focused on certain positions when it comes to improving the team, even if one of those mid-tier guys are already there? Is there someone out there that he KNOWS will improve this team, and will he pay them to join us, possibly hamstringing our depth and ability to re-sign others in the future? Basically, what is Grigs gonna do now that he's gotten his feet wet and has some of the pieces in place that he wanted?
Playoffs: Colts gave up 44 pts, 43 pts in their two games, This is where I look for improvement and frankly I think it's hard to argue that these performances were any better than any year during the previous regime. I am not trying to be an Ass, I am just going off of what was preached when the regime change was made. A better ground game, A better defense and a team built to win in January (ie) Better rushing attack, Better defense. I still think it's safe to say their is alot of room for improvement no matter how you want to look at stats.
Rome wasn't built in a day. Like I have said many times, we have mostly second tier guys. The kind of guys you want surrounding your playmakers. We have the wall built, but a wall by itself can only delay the inevitable. Now it is time to arm the wall with some playmakers. Get just 2 or 3 playmakers and we will have a top ten defense. Likewise, get some OL help in the middle and we have a top 10 offense as well. Both our offense and defense were inconsistent last season, and for two different reasons. The defense had the foundation, but no playmakers. The offense had playmakers, but no foundation. In both cases we are just a couple players away from having both a top ten offense and defense. If you have that you are in pretty good position to compete for a SB.

Often times when you are building something there are many pieces to the puzzle. You might have 99% of the puzzle complete, but something just isn't working right because you are missing that 1%. You add that 1% and what was kind of bad, at best average, suddenly becomes really really good. Progression isn't always a straight line.
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BlueKoolaid
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JediColt
Feb 11 2014, 05:17 PM


I'm not saying the defense is fine as is, we definitely need to improve there, but this idea that we need to cut several starters that just joined the team is ridiculous.

That's why I'm wondering if Grigs will look to improve on areas that already have starters in place. Cut the current starter or don't, if there is a better player at that position out there and we can get them, will we?

We could actually sign those guys errsay mentioned AND keep the guys only going into their second year with us. But it WILL hamstring us from getting depth at other positions. which is one of the reasons why Grigs did what he did last off-season in signing the guys he did. (They gave us the ability to add mid-tier depth elsewhere.)

And, Scott, you're right about our performance in the playoffs, and needing to improve. But you still have to look at the improvements throughout the regular season. Can't take away some of the great games they did have against good teams. It's kinda like dissing on an Olympian for having a bad performance. They must have done something good to get to the Olympics and compete against the best in the world, right?

I'm just saying I understand the strategy Grigs took, and it DID work some of the time last year. Just need a few more studs to get to the next level. (And it'd be nice if one or two of those were drafted by us...)
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
Yeah, but we're already missing a first, fourth and seventh round picks. The so-called "wall" has some obvious leaks which need repairing before it comes down. If you build with second class materials, you get a flawed product. Like Scott reiterated, Pags promised a "monster" and this unit lacks teeth. Did they have their moments, sure. But it's FAR from a "monster". In order to add 2 or 3 playmakers to the defense, some others have to go.
It's really that simple. Then there's the O-Line to ponder...
Edited by errsay, Feb 12 2014, 04:07 PM.
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cedjss
Pro Bowl'er
We got to cut Satele because he is one of worst centers in NFL and is due to make 5 million and if we cut him we save 4 million.
We need to cut Toler because he can not stay healthy and we will save 4 million
Sheppard can be cut and save 1.2 million. We can find a decent back up for half that
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TheDodo
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errsay
Feb 12 2014, 04:05 PM
Yeah, but we're already missing a first, fourth and seventh round picks. The so-called "wall" has some obvious leaks which need repairing before it comes down. If you build with second class materials, you get a flawed product. Like Scott reiterated, Pags promised a "monster" and this unit lacks teeth. Did they have their moments, sure. But it's FAR from a "monster". In order to add 2 or 3 playmakers to the defense, some others have to go.
It's really that simple. Then there's the O-Line to ponder...
We have a lot of cap space. You don't have to cut players, just make them your new backups. RJF as a starter might be a little underwhelming, RJF as your backup is pretty good. Why cut someone for no damn reason?

We haven't been building a wall with second class material. We have solid players at almost every position. We just don't have the playmakers to make the most of those solid players. The way you act you would think you could only build a good defense with playmakers at every position. As far as I can remember most of the FA's we brought in were considered pretty good players on their old teams. The only difference being is they were playing next to All-Pro caliber talent instead of playing next to similar level talent. No one is denying that we need some All-Pro talent now, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There is a difference between having a bad defense cause you have bad players and having a bad defense because you are missing a couple important pieces. This defense is the latter not the former.
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ck_in64
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I personally am not saying cut anyone just for the sake of cutting them but I am saying that outside of Mathis and maybe Davis there's nobody untouchable on this defense.

Statistics notwithstanding, we have a bad defense. If anyone in the draft or FA can be an upgrade then Grigs should do it. I'm not saying overhaul the entire thing but by the same token everyone outside of #98 (maybe #23) is on the bubble.
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
TheDodo
Feb 12 2014, 08:04 PM
errsay
Feb 12 2014, 04:05 PM
Yeah, but we're already missing a first, fourth and seventh round picks. The so-called "wall" has some obvious leaks which need repairing before it comes down. If you build with second class materials, you get a flawed product. Like Scott reiterated, Pags promised a "monster" and this unit lacks teeth. Did they have their moments, sure. But it's FAR from a "monster". In order to add 2 or 3 playmakers to the defense, some others have to go.
It's really that simple. Then there's the O-Line to ponder...
We have a lot of cap space. You don't have to cut players, just make them your new backups. RJF as a starter might be a little underwhelming, RJF as your backup is pretty good. Why cut someone for no damn reason?

We haven't been building a wall with second class material. We have solid players at almost every position. We just don't have the playmakers to make the most of those solid players. The way you act you would think you could only build a good defense with playmakers at every position. As far as I can remember most of the FA's we brought in were considered pretty good players on their old teams. The only difference being is they were playing next to All-Pro caliber talent instead of playing next to similar level talent. No one is denying that we need some All-Pro talent now, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There is a difference between having a bad defense cause you have bad players and having a bad defense because you are missing a couple important pieces. This defense is the latter not the former.
Eh, pay attention. We need to cut certain players because: They suck, aren't worth the money, both.

Do you agree/don't agree that Satele is BAD, Shepherd is close to awful, Toler has been hurt for the last 2.5 seasons and that RJF was a career backup who may be adequate, but offers virtually no pass rush? I never said to cut Redding, Walden or Landry for the time being, and gave reasons why. You're making it sound like I want to gut the team. I only want the team to rid itself of a few bad contracts going forth, in hopes of using those savings to add some impact players, OR SIGNING SOME OF OUR OWN PENDING FA's instead of keeping the aforementioned "filler" types. You don't win champoinships with the tofu of the world.

Case in point: Vontae, Bethea, (who I don't advocate re-signing) AV and Mac are FA's to be. As is Sergio Brown (an excellent STer) and Vaughn who is a decent backup. Do we let all of them walk, or sign some back to return, or re-sign them all? 33M under is great, but Vontae could command around 7M per, AV-3M, Mac-3M, Sergio-1.5 and Vaughn-1.5. That's 16M right there, which leaves around 17M left, without re-signing Bethea or Donald Brown.

So you would have 17M to address needs at Safety, ILB, NT, DE, WR, C and G, without a first round draft choice. If you terminated Satele, Toler and Sheppard...you would then have an addittional 10M to have at your disposal to sign the likes of a Byrd/Ward, Spikes/Butler, Jones, along with gauging the interest of a quality C.

Hardly "gutting". More like trimming the fat.



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rccolts
Veteran
I agree with cutting Satele. To me there is no cons to his cut because McGlynn looked better this past year at center anyway.

Toler I don't think should be cut unless they find his replacement, but until that happens you keep him. There is no reason that they can't keep him know only to cut him later if they manage to sign his replacement. It's not like he is owed a roster bonus.

RJF I believe you keep no matter what. If they sign &/or draft someone who pushes him down the depth chart then it just means the depth has gotten better.

Sheppard I don't really care either way. Cost vs savings is minimal by NFL standards.
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DarkHorseColts
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Pro Bowl'er
rccolts
Feb 13 2014, 02:23 PM
I agree with cutting Satele. To me there is no cons to his cut because McGlynn looked better this past year at center anyway.
Even if the Colts think Holmes is ready to compete for that starting C spot, I would rather it be against McGlynn than Satele. He would probably re-sign as a backup C/G for substantially less than Satele is making.

Of course I would prefer they improve the O-line to the point where neither one would make the final roster cut.
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
Of course it's fine to terminate contracts after your plans shake out, if Grigson so desires to play it that way. I just don't want to lose a player he could have signed in deference to keeping a marginal in the process. And I firmly believe that the players I mentioned are marginal at best. for various reasons. I said the same thing last year when we signed these guys. Then after the season, some people were complaining that we should have gone after the bigger fish. Well. there's only one way to land the bigger fish. Bigger wallet.
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cedjss
Pro Bowl'er
If we keep Satele as a back up , he is a $5 million back up
If Toler does like he has done the last 2.5 years he will be a $5 million hurt player
Alot of our FA do not need to be resigned.
Sign Mack, Davis, Bryd , another corner, AV, McAfee for 28 million
Add 3 million for draft. Leaves 10 million for rest if we cut Toler and Satele
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rccolts
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cedjss
Feb 14 2014, 12:42 AM
If we keep Satele as a back up , he is a $5 million back up
If Toler does like he has done the last 2.5 years he will be a $5 million hurt player
Alot of our FA do not need to be resigned.
Sign Mack, Davis, Bryd , another corner, AV, McAfee for 28 million
Add 3 million for draft. Leaves 10 million for rest if we cut Toler and Satele
I haven't seen anyone suggest we keep Satele as a backup, he seems to be the one player most everyone agrees with cutting.

I am not against replacing Toler, I just feel his replacement must be found before his release.

Alex Mack - If he does become available there will be quit a bidding war for him but yes I agree about signing him if possible
Vontae Davis - a must sign for Grigson
Jarius Byrd - same as Mack
Another Corner - not familiar with this guy
AV & McAfee - I am fine with both being resigned, I am just curious what the price will be for them
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JediColt
Pro Bowl'er
rccolts
Feb 14 2014, 09:29 AM
Another Corner - not familiar with this guy
I think he's a nose tackle.
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
This draft is said to be knee deep in CB's, Interior O-Linemen and WR's. We could easily find a promising, starter-material CB in round 2 and a good C/G candidate in round 3, according to what I have gleaned. (Check out Mel Kiper's interview on Colts.com) Other draft sites have indicated much the same.
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cedjss
Pro Bowl'er
The number one thing to me is protecting Luck. We need to upgrade at RG and center
Like to sign Mack and a veteran RG. A guard that might sign a 2 year contract and teach both Thornton and Holmes
The rest of money and top. 2 or 3 picks on defense
Need couple playmakers and good solid players on defense
A WR is important but Luck has enough weapons with a healthy Wayne and Allen
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
Personally, I think signing Mack is a fantasy. I DO agree about protecting Andrew. I also agree that WR is no longer a huge priority either. This should be a good thread to comment on for the next month or so. Good job in starting it up.
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cedjss
Pro Bowl'er
The so called experts are saying Bills will franchise Bryd
Should we resign Bethea ? TJ Ward might get franchised by Browns.
Also on defense would Karlo Dansby or Brandon Spikes be worth signing. I believe Dansby has said he wants to stay in Arizona .
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Posted ImageBent20
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Headed to Retirement
From what I've read, resigning Bethea is a forgone conclusion. Wouldn't mind seeing an upgrade there, as I've been saying for three years now, but we've got bigger needs.

I keep seeing free agency expectations from fans that are probably unrealistic. Same as last year, same as when people tried to predict draft picks under Polian and became infuriated when he'd go the opposite direction.

Between free agency and the second and third round picks of the draft I'd hope we add a couple of offensive linemen (ideally one who can start, but we'll get better with Thomas back, at least add depth and hope last year's rookies can progress significantly). Add a safety, MLB or DE who can make a difference (almost has to be a free agent given where we're drafting and the positions we need), add a talented young WR. Too many question marks surrounding everyone but Hilton at that position.

Generally, I see us going WR and offensive line with the second and third round picks, picking up a decent defender and an offensive lineman in free agency. With our injured guys back and better luck this year on the injury front, that can be enough to put us in the SB discussion.
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
Bethea deserves to be "gone". Upgrade at FS is PARAMOUNT, as Landry is basically a liability in coverage.
cedjss
Feb 15 2014, 04:47 PM
The so called experts are saying Bills will franchise Bryd
Should we resign Bethea ? TJ Ward might get franchised by Browns.
Also on defense would Karlo Dansby or Brandon Spikes be worth signing. I believe Dansby has said he wants to stay in Arizona .
Not sure Byrd can be franchised. Thought he was last year, or has some kind of an agreement with the Bills to not do so. Could be wrong. Ward I think is the guy that may get the tag. Dansby, Spikes or Butler for that matter, would be a tremendous coup for Grigson. We'd better make some serious upgrades on dfense, or we may not take that next step up.
Edited by errsay, Feb 16 2014, 05:23 PM.
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cedjss
Pro Bowl'er
Listening to the NFL radio, they say you have to count durability as a talent
Antinoe Bethea is durable. A player like Toler is not. You sign a player for several years, you can not afford for him to be on sidelines
A team like Seatlle hit so good on their draft the last several years
2012 we had a great draft. 2013 was not good. Grigson need at least 2 good players in this draft. Undrafted players are important as well. I just feel like we have got to keep Luck healthy and give him time to make plays. Our offense is good with him making plays
I upright Luck with time and a very good defense, we can win the Super Bowl. Satele and McGlynn were terrible. Thornton was bad, but also a rookie and he showed flashes. They say offense line is one of hardest position to learn. That is why we need a vet center and guard to make a good run in 2014. If not Mack at center, than maybe the center from the Saints
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
Bethea IS durable, but has lost alot in coverage/range. We need a topflight FS for starters on defense. The Colts do have a bunch of good, young talent on offense...but they're really lacking enough quality talent on defense to make a serious playoff run at this point in time.

The whole premise in hiring Pagano was to build a defense that would take the pressure off of a talented offense to win games. While they certainly aren't an awful bunch, the holes are glaring and obvious. At least they are to me...
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cedjss
Pro Bowl'er
errsay
Feb 16 2014, 05:20 PM
Bethea deserves to be "gone". Upgrade at FS is PARAMOUNT, as Landry is basically a liability in coverage.
cedjss
Feb 15 2014, 04:47 PM
The so called experts are saying Bills will franchise Bryd
Should we resign Bethea ? TJ Ward might get franchised by Browns.
Also on defense would Karlo Dansby or Brandon Spikes be worth signing. I believe Dansby has said he wants to stay in Arizona .
Not sure Byrd can be franchised. Thought he was last year, or has some kind of an agreement with the Bills to not do so. Could be wrong. Ward I think is the guy that may get the tag. Dansby, Spikes or Butler for that matter, would be a tremendous coup for Grigson. We'd better make some serious upgrades on dfense, or we may not take that next step up.
Bryd was franchised last year. But he can be franchised again
Love to upgrade FS but who. Love to get Bryd . What I read is we need upgrade at defense tackle. Need more pass rush. Got to resign Davis and have another CB who is good. Toler is good when healthy. But how many games in last 3 years has he been healthy?
Edited by cedjss, Feb 16 2014, 09:13 PM.
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
There's other FA Safeties to chose from too. Just not as good as Byrd. Chris Clemons comes to mind.
Edited by errsay, Feb 16 2014, 11:32 PM.
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Coltny
Pro Bowl'er
I agree that wanting players like Byrd and Mack is great, but obtaining them is another story. Many other teams want them too, and Oakland is the wildcard in all of this. They seem to be idiots as a franchise, but they've got some good pieces, and now they have enough cap space to sign a small island of dudes.

A number of players may end up heading west for their next job.

From everything I've read, Bethea will be back. I'd be surprised if he left - the Colts seem to want him.

I'm just waiting around to see what they do, they've got to think about adding a stud on the OL (and it won't be Mack), one on the DL depending how they feel about Chapman/Hughes/Moala/Franklin, do they re sign Brown, Sergio, Butler, and Davis? Is Toler healthy? And what about AV and the crazy punter. Plus they've got to upgrade the LB's. Will Bjorn Borg pan out? How will Reggie and Ballard respond after ACL injuries?

Many questions...
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errsay
Pro Bowl'er
Oakland would have to severely overpay to land someone who is being courted by legit contenders. Besides, there's many good players that will hit the open market, and maybe after June 1 as well.
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