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| Just heard...Colts have an Anthem knee taker aare one of the teams; ; Statement to Colts fans from the players; | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 24 2017, 10:50 AM (263 Views) | |
| advanced32 | Sep 24 2017, 10:50 AM Post #1 |
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Pro Bowl'er
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I want to know who he or they are. I am instantly an anti-fan. I don't care if they do interviews and express whatever opinions they have. I'm 100% fine with that. But taking a knee, sitting, turning their back or in any way disrespecting the flag is insulting to me and to the country they are privileged to live and work in. This kinda protest is inappropriate. If this team officially takes the position endorsing this behavior I will officially end my Colts fanhood....and...if that happens, I see no way to attach my real feeling toward another team...so that would end me and the NFL. I really don't care to put it to a vote and if Robert Mathis, my favorite player in Indy, tried to talk me out of it...he be wasting his time. This is not a political thing...its an unforgivable act of disrespect to millions of Americans...not just those who are alive but mostly those who put their lives at risk so posterity could continue to live free. I believe we benefit from observing symbols like the flag. Theseazzholes have to understand this. Important point: I was born and raised in the deep south. As a kid I used to draw the confederate flag, like other kids I knew did. It wasn't until I was in college that I first understood that that flag was viewed by some as a racist symbol. After seeing film of KKK members tote'n it at their rallies, I certainly understood how a symbol of regional pride for me was a symbol of racism for many others. Therefore, I never flew that flag on my car antenna or never displayed it in any way because I thought it would be disrespectful. These same protesters today aren't dealing with the confusion I experienced as a kid. The American flag doesn't represent bad cops who are out to gun down minorities, I'd protest those people too. In fact, I have known several cops I would protest. There are jerks in every field of work. Disrespecting the American flag speaks of ignorance and a total lack of appreciation. I just wanna know who this player is.....or players. |
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Bodey
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Sep 26 2017, 07:04 PM Post #61 |
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The Cowboys came together at mid field before the national anthem and knelt as an entire organization. Then retreated to the sideline and linked arms and all stood for the anthem. The Cardinals gathered as a team in one of the endzones and linked arms as a team as well as with some local first responders and stood together for the anthem. |
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| Weatherman | Sep 26 2017, 07:06 PM Post #62 |
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Pro Bowl'er
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For what its worth, the President, in my opinion, was correct in what he said. He never inserted race into the argument, simply respect for our nation. All those who believe they are oppressed, take a look at political leaders in your community and ask yourself who put them there. All this crap has forced me to cancel Sunday Ticket, a customer since 1999. And, as employees of their respective teams and of the NFL, players do NOT have 1st Amendment rights while on the field, just as I do not have 1st Amendment rights while serving as an employee. NFL has restricted much in the way of speech, they chose not to act on this therefore condoning the act. I don't watch football to witness a bunch of whiney, overpaid athletes complain about oppression. Find another way. |
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IndyColt45
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Sep 26 2017, 07:29 PM Post #63 |
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MVP
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Well, you still have your 1st Amendment rights, even at work. You aren't going to get arrested just because you're on the clock. |
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| CanadianColtsFan | Sep 26 2017, 08:25 PM Post #64 |
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Pro Bowl'er
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The fact that people who are pretty huge NFL fans have actually stopped watching football all together boggles the mind. |
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IndyColt45
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Sep 26 2017, 08:31 PM Post #65 |
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MVP
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There's more to it than just this. This is just the straw that breaks the back for a lot of people. |
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Bent20
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Sep 26 2017, 11:26 PM Post #66 |
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Headed to Retirement
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I agree there is more to it. Too many commercials, too many rule changes, too much of the Patriots and Goodell. But maybe those complaints sound like wining. Regarding what the Cowboys did, I found this interesting. Not saying Scott VanPelt always makes the most compelling points, but this is a good one: “Will anyone listen to what he said about what they did as a team?” Van Pelt asked in the wake of Garrett’s explanation. “How they talked for days to figure out how they show their support and then not be disrespectful to the flag?” “But if this is something that upsets you,” he continued. “You’re just going to be mad and no conversation can take place if that’s all there is. It just can’t happen if you just want to be mad. This was before the anthem, and what they did was booed. So if the anthem wasn’t being played and the flag wasn’t being displayed and you’re angry at that, what are you angry about?” http://thebiglead.com/2017/09/26/scott-van-pelt-on-cowboys-kneeling-before-anthem-if-if-this-upsets-you-youre-just-going-to-be-mad/ And I would add, I standby what I said about healthy conversations. This topic had gone dormant and then Trump brought it up again. Like it or not, something most people said they were tired of talking about has turned into a good discussion on this board. Always friendly? Maybe not. Considering the topic I've seen threads much more contentious than this. Are minds changing? Probably not. Opening a little? I think so. It's better than what we have seen of late in this country, one side too full of hate to even have a civil conversation with the other. Edited by Bent20, Sep 26 2017, 11:38 PM.
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| Weatherman | Sep 27 2017, 12:16 AM Post #67 |
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Pro Bowl'er
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No, but fired is always an option brilliant. |
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| advanced32 | Sep 27 2017, 12:31 AM Post #68 |
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Pro Bowl'er
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I would like to try to help you understand how I feel....in case you're interested. I'm speaking for myself of course but trust me, many of my friends and guys I've bumped into and had casual conversations with feel very much like I do and they grew up very much like I did. Growing up the way I did was influenced by several things that eventually lead to who I am. Like I mentioned before I was surrounded with family members who served during war time. I understood at the time the sacrifices they made and heard enough stories that they were heroes to me. Pair that with watching John Wayne, Robert Mitchum and others play characters I imagined being alot like those people I knew. I was filled with pride about this and always tried not to do anything that might makes those people ashamed of me. I had sports heroes very early also and valued the same personal qualities in them that I did in my Uncle, for example. He was a big no-neck fella that served in the Navy during WWII. He saw mega action in the Pacific. He was pretty modest and quiet but everybody seemed to respect him. He drank too much but at that time that wasn't that big a deal unless it lead to "Bad drunk" behavior. My Dad's best friend was a Marine during the war...the nicest guy you could ever imagine. He brought me my first puppy when I was seven. He told me all kinds of stories about how it was. I remember my Mom crying once when I was asking him questions. I remember that very well. All this had a big time effect on me. I developed several values that I've tried to always hang on to. Never lie to avoid a penalty. Accept responsibility for mistakes more than you're responsible for, especially if you on a team. That was a big one. But the most important one was...be a patriot, but that wasn't what we called it. Honor...that's a word I heard all the time. It was in all things. But, with all that there was also winning. It was extremely important to win. Don't let'm get up after you knock'em down. "Put yer foot on his neck" is how I remember Uncle Roy put'n it. I did learn to value sportsmanship later but as a kid it didn't matter. If I walked 9 batters and made three errors it didn't matter as long as I won. Pitch a one hitter and lose 1-0 and no ice cream. This made cents at the time and I totally accepted it. Finally, there was not taking any shit without giving it back. I was not a natural fighter. I was very rough and had no fear but I hated the idea of punching somebody in the face. But you do what you have to do. What it all added up to was you stood up and took off yer cap when they said the prayer and played the National Anthem. To not do that would be like......unimaginable. Disrespecting the flag...my mother...my principal were things that were NOT possible. I never, in my whole life, ever cussed in front of my mom...the first time I ever drank in front of her was at my wedding. It was a toast and I had a glass of wine in my hand. I was 27. I wasn't alone on some of this....I wasn't a freak although maybe I was a tad extreme sometimes. Patriotism was ingrained in me early on. It's who I was and lots of people around me felt the same way. These things were not and are still not flexible. Some thing shouldn't be flexible. The flag represents something and people and ideas and if you are an American you should understand that....unless you were raised by people in communities who didn't witness those who made sacrifices. These people I don't respect, like and understand. If I had been raised by college professors who only talked about how "Big Brother" was the real bad guy....then maybe I'd be someone else. I've grown to have an open mind about many things...but respect for vets and the flag and yer parents is not negotiable. I know reading all this probably requires too much time and effort...but maybe it can help you understand what is mind boggling otherwise. |
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IndyColt45
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Sep 27 2017, 01:53 AM Post #69 |
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Maybe the last two, yeah, but not the first ones. The game has changed, and not all for the better. You almost have to be a lawyer to be able to follow the rules in most situations, and the game is lacking the JACKED UP quality that made it hyper popular in the first place.
There's always the potential for consequences in your private life from what you say. The first amendment is never going to protect you from getting fired, unless you work a government job. |
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| Rjinda | Sep 27 2017, 10:01 AM Post #70 |
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Pro Bowl'er
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I read where DirecTV is giving full refunds to customers who cancel NFL Ticket who mention they did it because of player protests. They did this because they are getting a lot of calls from people cancelling. I expected some, but not an overwhelming number. The owners have been supportive of the players so far and I applaud efforts to try to make protests more thoughtful concerning how some feel about the flag, but it will be interesting to see how long they let it impact the bottom line. |
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| MrCCCs | Sep 27 2017, 05:47 PM Post #71 |
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Pro Bowl'er
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1. NFL absolutely has the right to make players stand and be respectful during the national anthem, and the right to fire them if they don't. In fairness, I believe they tried to take a middle road and it backfired a bit on them. Like many, they don't want to be labeled as racist white supremacists by a very vocal minority. The trouble is, by acquiescing they are labeled as disrespectful to our nation by a bigger and up-to-now-mostly-quiet majority. In hindsight, I would have liked them to issue a statement saying 'While we respect the right of all Americans to voice concerns and raise awareness of issues, as an organization we do not believe that any action which may be perceived as disrespectful to our nation is consistent with the organization's values and ideals. Therefore, we believe other avenues may be considered by which athletes and employees can address issues that do not infringe on the dignity of the flag or the respect we hold for our country. As a league, we will stand for the national anthem of this great country.' 2. Kneeling before the anthem, linking arms, I have no problem with but I'm sure the fans did not understand that this was INSTEAD of during the national anthem. I think they boo'ed because they saw it as being something that would continue until the national anthem and perhaps even a further demonstration. Just guessing. 3. I do believe the USA is the greatest force for good in the world, has the foundation and structure to be the best and brightest beacon of diversity and unity in one place, has been phenomenal in creating a culture of freedom and the pursuit of happiness, has overcome so many of it's own ills, and works hard today to lift everyone up into prosperity and peace. There's still an ugly side, sure, but it is a minority that is shrinking. So when I perceive people who have benefited from that culture and prosperity disrespect the country and people who worked hard to provide it for them, then it far outweighs my love for NFL football. I'll admit I react to emotionally to this situation and what I perceived as protests and disrespect might not have been intended as such. But if so it is an easy mistake to make because those kneeling aren't being clear. Like Advanced said, we aren't talking about reality, just perceptions and accusations. That's why I'm considering such a drastic action of dropping football. That said, CCF, I can understand why your mind is boggled a bit. Perhaps it is just my perceptions and not reality that fuels my passion in this. |
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| CanadianColtsFan | Sep 27 2017, 08:28 PM Post #72 |
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I understand and respect patriotism. My only problem is that I don't think standing for an anthem or flag should take priority over a person. That is having your priorities mixed up. I'm not saying anyone has to take up some cause they don't believe in, but the guys are just kneeling. They aren't dancing around and being disrespectful. They aren't making obscene gestures etc. They are just peacefully protesting something for a cause they feel passionately about. I think we've covered things here, and we can agree to disagree. I've been enlightened on some issues it is hard to get my mind around, so that is good. Even though I'm a commie liberal snowflake, I'll still enjoy talking football with you all. |
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| Xavier Von Voorhees | Sep 30 2017, 02:07 PM Post #73 |
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Pro Bowl'er
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Where to start? CCFan, as a fellow Canadian, I hope you re-read your post, and then reconsider your words. I find it unfortunate how a significant number of Canadians can be quick to judge America and Americans - "an arrogant country, an arrogant people" - comments of that sort. And these very Canadians so often expose their own ill-considered words; their own unintended arrogance. My personal opinion on America and Americans is that they are our closest friends, literally and figuratively, with the British a very close second. Culturally, we share tons of the same values, beliefs, and so on and so forth. Anyway, on the "protest" and your blanket statement with respect to systemic racism: Calling anyone who disagrees with the players' kneeling "foolish" is, unfortunately, just that - a bit foolish itself, even a bit arrogant, particularly for a non-American, although I truly believe it was completely unintentional. As is referring to the S.S.B. as their "precious" anthem. Would an American who came onto a Canadian website and said something so - well - mocking, be treated so courteously in the responses? It also seems to indicate a lack of knowledge or research into American history, the American flag, and what was ground zero for this form of protest. I am not trying to be rude, and will make every attempt not to be - I would only ask that we try to consider and base our words in legitimate knowledge based on empirical evidence, legitimate experience and facts before we are so quick to pass judgment on such important issues. Because that is what this has become - unfortunately sport is being hijacked to push political agendas (very annoying,I think, to real football fans!) and the race issue continues to heat up. Your comment on the kneeling may show a lack of research into the anthem and the bigger picture as well as forgetting what it initially meant when started by Kaepernick; your blanket statement on systemic racism is a dangerous, now common statement, largely based on widespread inaccurate reporting of truths, and convenient cherrypicking of situations. Not intentionally (I don't believe) by you - but intentionally by others. 1. The anthem. It was born, like the U.S. itself, of battle. Fort McHenry, the Battle of Baltimore. The American Revolution. Here in Canada, our history, our freedom, is not one we had to fight so much for. To this day, US soldiers represent the largest number of military fighting for freedom all over the world. It means something. To not understand how so many Americans, with so many ties to the military, with so many lives lost and sacrificed, could disagree with kneeling for the anthem - that in and of itself speaks to a lack of consideration of the big picture here. Considering the military personnel - of all colours, by the way - who have died protecting the rights and freedoms of Colin K. and all Americans, of all colours - of course his comments and actions are found to be offensive by many - sometimes the military folks themselves will say they disagree but will fight for his right to protest - other times, members, or family and friends of those who've died/been grievously wounded are not so agreeable. Can you not see how widows, kids who've lost a parent, anyone touched with a loss of this nature - would expect multimillionaire athletes to protest some other way? HOw about volunteering some of your free time to work for a suitable cause? I understand why many Americans disagree completely with this form of "protest." Likewise, consider the number of police officers of all colours who have died/been injured in the US protecting citizens, saving lives, regardless of colour. Kaepernick's stance, comments and kneeling for the anthem are easily offensive to many and lack much legitimate forethought in terms of actual study. COlin Kaepernick, lest we forget, started this protest. It was specifically about police and what he believed to be the murder of blacks by police - he started with wearing "pig" socks, referred to police gunning down innocent/unarmed blacks, and kneeled for the anthem because he believed it meant nothing to him - it did not represent him, it did not protect him, and as a black American it was a travesty to stand and pay respect to it. People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts. His opinions are not sound when considering many facts about the state of things today in the US. Older black Americans - ones who actually experienced and lived thru the Jim Crow era - they oftentimes have a very different take now than the younger generations. But they are then dubbed "Uncle Toms", and part of the problem. That is beyond rude.These multimillionaire athletes protest racist oppression. For one, many of these athletes have been given the royal treatment since their athletic ability became evident. On that alone, their method and their claim is absurd - since the Civil War, people - including white people - have sacrificed to improve racial equality, and it has. Today, this notion of systemic racism is being grossly exaggerated and overblown while real problems with real causal factors are being ignored. Look around today- CCFan, give some concrete examples of this systemic racism - where are blacks today not being given the same opportunities to excel? Are they banned from schools? From public office? the answer is...no. Black President for 2 terms....black mayors, black city councils, black judges, black lawyers, black heads of school boards, black Deans, black police chiefs, everything. Where is the oppression? Very rare incidents are being grossly exaggerated; it is simply not true in 2017 that there is systemic racism throughout US society and institutions. In many cases, it is advantageous to be black, with respect to hiring processes, acceptance to learning institutions, etcetera. People will then roll out incarceration rates. This too is flawed- arrests and incarceration are based on behaviour, not race - specifically, criminal behaviour. So back to Kaepernick, who considered himself to be "educated" on the subject of police racism after he spoke to some of the more vocal black activists. Some facts on police shootings: Every year, police shoot and kill significantly more whites than blacks. 2015: 497 whites, 259 blacks, 172 hispanics, 38 "other", 29 unknown. In 2016: 466 whites, 233 blacks, 160 hispanics, 42 other, 62 unknown. The Washington Post, not exactly a bastion for the right wing, tracks this. These numbers cannot be fudged, or twisted. Same for homicides; I'll touch on that later. So the claim that police kill more blacks than whites, although still echoed in the press on occasion, is starting to die down. And excuses are being made- for one, the demographic is then brought up - with blacks only making up 13 -14% of the US population, those numbers should be lower (blacks being shot by police) some will then scream. But again, important facts are ignored to push the victim narrative. For one, if you include demographics - population numbers, and you should - then you must consider the percentage of violent crime perpetrated by blacks. These numbers are wildly disproportionate, with blacks (13-14% of the population) committing between 35 and 50% of violent crimes based on different methods of categorization. Do not forget that many, many violent crimes such as rape and robbery are not being reported in the worst communities. People will bring up statistics on black on black crime (murder) quite frequently now, but the reality is that it is violent crime period - most victims of course are black because most of the people in the communities are black. Here again, though, flawed logic and arguments arise - the violent crime issue is dismissed along lines of: "of course black on black crime is bad - white on white crime is bad - people kill people that they live around." And it is then dropped. Name one white neighbourhood - one Asian neighbourhood - where white on white or asian on Asian violent crime is remotely near the levels of black on black violence in any number of inner city black communities. There is a problem here,not caused by police, not caused by systemic racism - and it is getting lost under the verbal barrage of police brutality, of systemic racism in the justice system, etcetera etcetera. And who suffers the most? The impoverished black community, directly as a result of those who put these issues at the forefront while ignoring the primary causations. THIS is the conversation that needs to take place - not by us, not by football fans - by those in power. But they do not - perhaps in some cases fearing political backlash. Another interesting police-related fact: a social scientist conducted a study with respect to police use of force, anticipating (he said this himself) racially based numbers where blacks would be victimized, etcetera (he was black, and unfortunately this seems to matter) - the study again went against the narrative (as have other studies since) - police were less likely to shoot blacks than whites under similar circumstances; white officers were less likely to shoot than black officers. What was almost humorous to me were a couple of things in the aftermath - the studies indicated that empty hand (bare hands, no weapons) use of force did show more incidents on blacks than other races - and this was, of course, reported in the media as signs of racial bias. Conveniently left out was the obvious, at least to any police officer: police do not use force on people because of their colour, they use it when necessary as determined by subject BEHAVIOUR. The studies do not get into who, for example, resisted officers in whatever varying degrees, forcing officers to take physical control - to use force. Of course, it stands to reason that if blacks are committing more violent crime, then there is a higher likelihood of officers having to use some level of force when dealing with blacks! The other comment many media types would then say in response to the findings - that these studies were "flawed" somehow regarding the deadly force findings - of course, with no concrete explanation for this dismissal. Other hard statistics: despite the rhetoric of white racism/violence toward blacks, the amount of black on white violent crime is wildly disproportionate to the latter. The police that Kaepernick deems murderers - white police, black victims - those in the inner cities work in communities that ARE in the hold of systemic issues - a systemic acceptance of criminality as acceptable behaviour, of regarding police as the enemy, of refusal to cooperate with police investigations, of a glorification of gang life and criminal enterprise (drug sales), an acceptance of the objectification of women, and the primary causation of the systemic criminality - the lack of guardianship -primarily parenthood - fatherless children being raised by single mothers, oftentimes without the best parenting skills. A subculture where attempting to do well in school sees young children scorned and mocked, where the parent(s) oftentimes care little with respect to childrens`performance, behaviour or attendance. This is the primary causal factor, this is a discussion - the "conversation" - that needs to occur - the breakdown of the family unit in the black community since around about the 1950s. Of course it won't. How about Kaepernick volunteers, gets trained, and rides with police officers in an inner city community for a year or so, if he really wants to get educated. How about he goes to these most at risk schools promoting the need to work hard in school. I won`t be holding my breath. Colin Kaepernick who talks of the evils of the white system, white police - who was abandoned by his black biological father, then put up for adoption by his (I believe teenage) white mother - and raised lovingly by his adoptive white parents. Of course, enormous efforts have also been made and continue to be made to hire more and more black officers to fill the ranks of police departments serving black communities, simply for the optics. So now players (and CCFan) jump on Trump`s inflammatory words as racist - of course, he never made it about race - he made it about the flag and the anthem, two of the last remaining symbols that should actually unite all Americans. And on that point, I would agree with the much vilified President. The dislike for him in the media has reached incredible heights of stupidity - he gets vilified more for calling Kim Jong-Un "Rocketman" - while Kim Jong Un is actually firing actual rockets. Which action is more inflammatory? This was just another opportunity to attack him for some...but it was a dumb move by the anti Trump folks, and by the NFL players, obvious beneficiaries of American freedoms and values - freedoms and values protected by police, fought for by the military. They will lose here - the flag, the anthem - will prevail - they themselves are ultimate symbols of unity. NFL players have been fueling the race theme for awhile, jumping in with major media like CNN, for example, perpetuating the completely false, "hands up don't shoot" lie of Michael Brown, for one. I believe that was the St Louis Rams, another city with enormous crime problems. The police? They get assaulted working in these areas, sometimes killed working these areas; they save lives in these areas. On rare occasions - as proven by hard data - they are involved in questionable shootings in these areas. They work in some areas that average a shooting (not involving police; usually gang and drug related) every single day. Yet they are despised, largely, in these areas, regardless of their conduct, receiving more negative national press than the criminals. The state of the inner city is not the fault of the police, and not the fault of any systemic racism. And now they want to revamp the criminal justice system because too many blacks are incarcerated. Because it is the fault of a racist cj system....not as a result of choosing to engage in criminal behaviour. Not because of the criminal subculture which is thriving, as the cycle of guardianship-absent child rearing continues. The more this "evil racist police" and systemic oppression narrative is perpetuated, the worse the situation becomes. The truth is that these inner city communities - black communities - need help. Focusing on false causation - systemic oppression and pathological police abuse - is not helping. Don't take my word for any of this - if you are that strong in your opinions - research it. All of it. And then look at situations here in our own Canada. We have, I believe, the best country on the planet (US being a very close second, and thru their military presence in all likelihood allowing us to live in peace!). But our leadership is allowing these very same false narratives to be perpetuated so they can avoid having very similar, awkward conversations about legitimate problems. |
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Bodey
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Sep 30 2017, 11:54 PM Post #74 |
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A long read, but an excellent post. A lot of food for thought in those words. |
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| CanadianColtsFan | Oct 1 2017, 12:14 PM Post #75 |
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I mean...come on. Racism isn't just about saying racist things or people hating blacks. Systemic racism is built into the system, hence the name. It is things that most people never think about. Do I think any of you on this forum are racist and hate black people? I doubt it. That view is less and less common, no doubt. The system still works against blacks in all sorts of ways though. No they are not banned from schools, banned from public office etc, at least not by any laws. That isn't what systemic racism is though. -Whites hold approx. 90% of the wealth in America, to 2% for blacks. Way out of whack with what should be expected based on population -Unemployment amongst blacks is twice the rate of whites. Blacks with college educations are twice as likely to be un or underemployed than whites. There have been multiple studies showing blacks are less likely to be called for an interview vs. a white person with the same resume. A 2003 study showed whites with criminal convictions are more likely to be called back after and interview than blacks with similar resumes and a clean record. -Black students of all ages are 3x more likely than whites to be suspended for equal infractions. They are far more likely to be referred to law enforcement as well. These kids are 18x more likely than white students to be tried as adults for their crimes. Studies show that people perceive boys who are black to be older and "less innocent" than whites of the same age. -Black are grossly over-represented in the prison population. Blacks are more likely to be pulled over by a cop. Their sentences are longer and harsher than the sentences for whites committing similar crimes. Whites use drugs as much or more (depends on the study) than blacks, yet blacks are 3x more likely to face criminal charges due to drugs. -Blacks are shown less house and apartments when searching for one. Blacks were much more likely to be presented with sub-prime mortgages during the period approaching the the housing crisis. Blacks are denied mortgages at a higher rate than whites with similar credit. We could go on and on. These are studies by the government in many cases. Others are by scientific journals. Examples of systemic racism are everywhere in the US. (Not only the US of course). This is without question. People who brush off all of these examples as the fault of blacks just don't get it I guess. The point is not that employers look at a black person and say "I'm not hiring them because they are black". A judge/jury doesn't look at someone and decide to be harsher because they are black. Banks don't look at someone and deny them because they are black. It isn't a case of the country being full of racist people, the problem is that these things are so deeply ingrained into society that people do it without noticing. It likely isn't even meant with ill-will in many cases. It is just how things work. That is a serious problem. |
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| Xavier Von Voorhees | Oct 1 2017, 05:19 PM Post #76 |
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Sorry, but for me to believe any of your "studies", I'll need them referenced - because most of them have obvious flaws. I won't waste my time doing the research to disprove them one by one; I believe I could, as I have researched some of them in the past for my masters. Systemic racism, as you are putting it forward, is simply not there. Many of your "studies" are not being put forward with accurately - I do know enough to say that, without even bothering to dig into it. The school suspensions/expulsions, for one. As far as the wealth by demographics, your whole "representation" argument is completely flawed - you are mixing up outcome with opportunity, for one. What you speak of - equal "representation", meaning demographics being represented accurately in all facets - is socialism, through and through. I'd love for you to give me some of these specific "studies", as opposed to simply parroting the claims of activists. And I am so tired of the argument, when data is not available which legitimizes these commentsa, of the new buzzphrase "unconscious bias." Appreciate you laying that one out there - "it's there...we just don't see it/realize it", etc. Great to throw out; tough to argue against a ghost. A final comment - any of your "studies" discuss the problems with respect to fatherless children and the increased likelihood of criminal behaviour? But you keep on cheering for the kneelers, I expected no different response; it is the norm for those with similar opinions. A column I just found while looking to simply link to today’s Toronto Sun for you – another day, 3 more black males shot, i1 in a black TO neighbourhood, two near a TO nightclub after a black event. Their names/photos have not been released, but I will go out on a limb and say I expect the victims to be black (as well as the shooter if ever found) due to the location and circumstances. If your points were correct, then I suppose Toronto is chock full of the same systemic racism, as blacks are disproportionately crime victims, perpetrators, no doubt are under-represented by way of income, etcetera. Of course, I know this is a lie, because I have lived in Toronto for 30 years, and systemic racism is not an issue. Black crime, particularly violent crime, is wildly disproportionate – along with gang membership and drug criminality, and the reasons are not because of police brutality, a racist system, or anything else – the problem lies within the community; it is directly related to the same parenting issues, the same allowance of a criminal subculture to exist. We are in the midst of some political squawking, led by a Toronto group of Black Lives Matter – regarding police racism – “carding” as it is called, for one. Here’s an interesting story related to that. Read, while the gun violence continues (though nowhere near the rate of the US). Anti-carding leader – murder suspect - if any links don't work, just copy the link and paste in your browser. http://www.torontosun.com/2017/06/30/anti-carding-poster-boy-wanted-for-murder Anyway, this popped up when I wanted to link to the front page. Larry Elder is, along with Thomas Sowell, one of the smartest fellows I have heard speak. Both, not that it should matter (unfortunately it does), are black. Both are self-made men, highly educated, and labeled as any number of ignorant things (ie: Uncle Toms) because they do not bang the victim drum unnecessarily. Give this a read: http://www.torontosun.com/2017/10/01/the-national-anthem-protests----do-facts-matter If you’d like to listen to one of the smartest men around – and one with a different viewpoint than you on these issues – check out youtube for Thomas Sowell. Here are a couple, if you are open-minded enough to listen to someone not in step with the facebook nation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzHd5bmEdU4&t=29s Here’s one of him as a younger man; same sensibilities, based in hard data at its face value, as always. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxygmc_SMAU The victim angle is being put forward here in precisely the same fashion, despite some of the obvious differences with respect to crime, gun availability, population density, economic decay, you name it. It is equally misleading, inaccurate and dangerous. Both Sowell (a trained economist) and Elder (a lawyer I believe, for one) discuss all of these issues at great length; Sowell has written numerous books on these subjects. They are critically hailed, and based on legitimate data, but you won’t find them in today’s universities because they are not walking to the beat of the victimization drum. I could post links to dozens of videos which dispel the arguments you put forward to indicate blacks are relentless victims of systemic racism in 2017, but I will leave this for now. If you want more or wish to discuss further, please holler. But I will always request links to source material for the type of info – the “studies” you put forward. There are some, but they are usually easily proven to be very poor in their scientific grounding as far as legitimate research. Also of note - the 2 new terrorist attacks, one in Edmonton, one in France. Knives and cars used. I would bet I know your position on this issue, and I would bet it is based on little personal experience, legitimate research, or study. But that is another topic. Finally - if truly interested - look up the statistical data available for blacks in the 50s and 60s - some of this may be touched on in the videos I linked to; there are videos, books etc available that lay out the facts - that the black American was doing much, much better up until then, in virtually every regard, in comparison to other American races, and to where they are today - better wages, more education, more gruaduates, less criminality, across the board. Most importantly, I believe- the family unit. Yet it started going south around this time, and has continued to do so. What happened? Did the systemic racism increase? Did the oppression increase? I know what is directly linked to the declines; I've read the source data and the articles/presentations by those who took the time to research it all. Sowel, if I recall, is one. have any idea? Or is it just another, oh come on argument - with unconscious bias, perhaps, at fault. Suddenly on the increase after the 50s and 60s. A start at debunking some of the above, for kicks - the inference that blacks were somehow victimized during the sub-prime mortgage/housing crisis. On the one hand, you throw out that blacks are denied mortgages due to racism; just prior you stated the former regarding blacks being, if I understand your meaning, victimized into being "presented" with sub-prime mortgages. This is typical double-speak, not necessarily by you, but perpetuated by you. This push was true; it was with respect to the "right", according to some of home ownership. I do not believe all of these issues are necessarily liberal democrat vs conservative republican; however, the democrat point of view on this was to push for these sub-prime mortgages for that reason. Here is the irony of the position - your position - if you provide the mortgages and the homes are subsequently lost/foreclosed on - you are racist. If you refuse the mortgages - you guessed it, you are racist. This was not a race issue per se, it was a failure by government - and the video will clarify who primarily in government - to use their heads. Thomas Sowell points out - necessary questions were never considered; in fact, they were condemned. I could go on; I will spare you. Here is a clip. Judge for yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do6wp9Vydys Study and then consider this situation which you chose to racialize, and then look at what yuou've done in your post above with respect to the housing crisis subprime mortgage situation (where you infer blacks were selectively victimized - not true - it was really pushed upon them by govt...primarily democrats), then your claim regarding blacks being refused on mortgage applications for no other reason than their race (please provide the reference so I can examine this - if it is true, there are a whole lot of soon-to-be rich black people out there who need to obtain lawyers!), and your first comment - that blacks don't get shown rental properties for some racial reasons. How this data is captured - that alone I would be very interested in seeing. I am wondering iof you are perhaps lumping some "social experiment" in with legitimate studies utilizing scientific research guidelines. What is interesting in that so many of the policies - usually democratic policies - are inherently flawed in the same way. In the education system, quotas have resulted, ultimately, in failure. There is a ton of information on this; I source Sowell a great deal therein because of his personal knowledge and experience in the US school system as well as his years and years of legitimate research and data analysis of it. In terms of employment - Affirmative Action - yet the standing of blacks in terms of employment and wages, like education, have suffered. So many of the implementations that are designed to "level things out" ultimately fail. there are a number of specific reasons why......but now.....GO COLTS! Edited by Xavier Von Voorhees, Oct 1 2017, 08:37 PM.
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| isamuelson | Oct 1 2017, 06:14 PM Post #77 |
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| Xavier Von Voorhees | Oct 1 2017, 06:38 PM Post #78 |
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Response from 1 fan to the players - Who cares! Go play and good luck. But congratulations on your carefully worded and somewhat misguided letter. |
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| Weatherman | Oct 1 2017, 07:11 PM Post #79 |
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A narrative based largely on lies. Choose another time and place and I'm the first to listen. |
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| isamuelson | Oct 1 2017, 07:25 PM Post #80 |
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My question is, did ALL of the players agree to this or did the Colts organization put this out without conferring with each and every player? Do you think if any players didn't agree to this that they would speak out against it? Probably not for fear of losing their positions possibly. Or, maybe they all did agree to it. |
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| IronBubble | Oct 1 2017, 08:06 PM Post #81 |
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I totally agree that there is police brutality and that a black man is more likely to be killed by police than a white man. However, I complete disagree with the form the NFL players are taking to try to start a "conversation." They are not starting a conversation on the issue, the conversation is on the protest. I also feel that they are being disrespectful to the anthem and the flag. They are also not considering peoples reaction and offense. They have the right to kneel, but we as fans that are offended have the right to object by not buying tickets, gear, or telling advertisers that we will not buy their products. This does not belong in the NFL. Edited by IronBubble, Oct 1 2017, 08:08 PM.
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| Weatherman | Oct 1 2017, 08:51 PM Post #82 |
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statistics prove your assertion to be inaccurate, but again, still the wrong venue, in my opinion. http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler#exit-modal |
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Bent20
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Oct 1 2017, 09:15 PM Post #83 |
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What is wrong with that statement? I really don't get where some of you are unhappy with it. |
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| IronPony1965 | Oct 1 2017, 10:15 PM Post #84 |
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I respect the fact they are at least trying to explain what and why they are doing what they do. I don't have any issue with it. I am also curious as to why people have to respond like asses |
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IndyColt45
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Oct 1 2017, 10:40 PM Post #85 |
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Combining these two topics together here. |
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| isamuelson | Oct 2 2017, 08:20 AM Post #86 |
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I have no issue with them wanting to "protest", and they have the right to do so during the national anthem. But those of us who feel it's disrespectful have every right as well by the exact same Constitution to voice our displeasure. I served and yes, I fought to protect their freedom to do what they want, and I understand that. I understand their protest. I just don't condone how they are doing it because of what the flag and the national anthem symbolizes. And how about actually taking your millions of dollars and using that to help the inner cities? Now apparently, from what I've heard, the players did meet with police and military and both sides gained an understanding of each other. They talk about unity, coming together, and that's an excellent first step. Hopefully, they'll eventually stop this because in the end, they'll never get rid of it completely. We are humans. We are fallible. Yes, I agree we must make every effort to reduce it, but if they think their kneeling is going to stop it completely, they're fooling themselves. And as much as Trump's comments were out of line, what they are doing now is more a referendum against Trump more than anything. Oh, and someone needs to proofread better. It's "knelt" not "kneeled". Edited by isamuelson, Oct 2 2017, 08:24 AM.
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| Xavier Von Voorhees | Oct 2 2017, 08:51 AM Post #87 |
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Don't think there is anything wrong with the statement...I just don't care. Go play; as weatherman (I think) stated - wrong venue. The twitter universe cares about that; football fans by and large, I bet, just want to watch the games. Players want to do something - do something - spend time in the inner city schools, with inner city police departments. Kneeling for the anthem? Flashing black power signs after sacks, or on the sideline...whatever. Things have come along way since the 60s. And then to put out carefully crafted letters to fans? Can only speak for myself - don't care. If I want to get into these topics, I can tune in to the appropriate channels/radio stations etc etc. I very seldom do, as I have found it to be a useless endeavour. People usually do not want to make any concessions, don't want to let facts get in the way of emotions. And ironbubble, as pointed out - you have been duped into believing a false narrative, which is a huge part of the problem, and which has led to the present state of affairs regarding race in the US, one which Canada seems bent on arriving at, despite any and all logic. Of course there are problems; the truth, however, should matter. |
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| isamuelson | Oct 2 2017, 09:23 AM Post #88 |
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Funny how the Canadian PM Trudeau had to thrown in the "white supremacy" card after the awful Somali refugee went on a rampage and injured a Canadian police officer and many other people. Maybe proper vetting is needed? That's all we are asking for. We're not trying to prevent people from entering our country legally. My mother was from Japan and she obtained her citizenship the legal way. She didn't sneak into this country and wasn't offered sanctuary. |
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| Xavier Von Voorhees | Oct 2 2017, 10:08 AM Post #89 |
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I didn't read that (regarding our PM), but I was expecting something with respect to Islamophobia to come out of his mouth, another bizarre buzzphrase our politicians, public sector institutions and media are all down with. The immigration issue is a wholly different topic, but the "white" angle you mention is definitely a part of this thread, and a part of the kneeling protest. CCFan's post laid out a number of beliefs suggesting this black oppression, white privilege argument. It has no legs. I could go on and on; I'll link to one video which provides some data. There are many, many more available; the statistical data shows no basis for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66nXLDW4hPw One interesting addition - the fellows in the video explaining to the viewers the need to recognize this privilege - at one point, a sarcastic comment was put forward as to how obvious it was that the young white man who shot 8 black people in a church was taken into custody alive because he was white.....an equally horrible situation occurred (I believe) less than 2 weeks ago, where a black man went into a church and shot 8 white people, also due to racial hatred...and was taken into custody alive. Far less media coverage, and no presidential appearance at any service. But another senseless racially motivated incident, no doubt fueled by the race fires being stoked in an inaccurate and irresponsible fashion. |
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| isamuelson | Oct 2 2017, 11:38 AM Post #90 |
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Apparently now ISIS is claiming responsibility for the horrible Las Vegas incident. http://news.trust.org/item/20171002142139-okyax THIS is what we should be protesting about. This is an all out attack on everyone, not just in the United States. So now it appears this person that lived in a $400K home (in a retirement community supposedly) was part of ISIS. |
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