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Busy day at the Emirates
Topic Started: Jan 27 2014, 10:22 AM (1,831 Views)
supercollider7
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Also, the "no trophies, period" argument is rather silly.

From everything we've learned, we know that Wenger was given very limited funds after the Emirates project started (that is a fact), and he was told to prioritize CL football over the cups. Hence why when we were fighting for a top 4 spot Wenger would play weaker teams in the FA Cup and focus on the league.

Yes, if we were a small club with no hope of European football we could've thrown all of our eggs in the League or FA Cup basket and won them once or twice, but it means very little if you're finishing midtable behind clubs like Everton.

Losing CL is a lot like getting relegated, because suddenly you're not in the top tier competition anymore, you're not testing yourself against the best. I have argued this for years, that it wasn't just about the money, but also about keeping the club's image and reputation intact by keeping us in the highest competition.

The "no trophies" argument also fails to acknowledge the fact that while we didn't ultimately win anything, we were competitive. In 2006 we were in the CL final. There were two league cup finals and a few times we were involved in the title race as well. And always made it into CL knockout stages.

So at least admit the fact that Arsenal fought bravely against the big teams and only lost out because Chelsea, City, and United spent hundreds of millions to beat us, often buying our own players.

Also you need to acknowledge the fact that we lost key players almost every season, without the funds to replace them like for like. It's difficult for any manager to build a competitive team when they lost key players every year.
Especially Wenger's style of football which "requires a blind understanding" between teammates.

But when I mentioned Wenger's success, I meant the future success that we're about to have. Why am I optimistic, because Wenger is building (and it isn't complete yet) a fantastic team, that plays a way no one else is really capable of. I can only see this team getting better and better.

We may come up short again this year, but the club has what it takes now to go toe-to-toe with the biggest clubs and beat them. We'll continue to take steps forward and keep developing this team. And it's all because of how well Wenger has managed. There have been mistakes of course, and I still don't think everything is perfect, but overall he's done a very good job keeping us competitive and laying a foundation for us to have a successful team again.
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mlshock35
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supercollider7
Jan 28 2014, 09:56 AM
phatosas
Jan 27 2014, 05:50 PM
This question is for those that think it is crazy to offer Wenger a contract now because he hasnt won a trophy in 8 years. If you were in charge of running the club, what would you do? Fire him right now and bring a new manager to see out the season? How about wait for him to see out the season and make a decision based on the success or failure of the team. I hope you realize that if you dont offer him a contract now, chances are he could walk away at the end of the season. Now imagine winning the league and your manager walking out the door, now that would be tough to explain. I think people also dont realize that changing managers doesnt necessarily guarantee success. It is easy enough to change managers when you back it up with millions of dollars but if you are still spending within your means, throwing in a manager with your budget is really risky. Right now the Glazers have lost millions, would lose more if they dont qualify for Europe and they are going to spend almost 200mil just to get back to challenging and there is no certainty if that would take them back to the top. Anyway if you believe this is the wrong move, then let me know what you would do if you were in charge of running the club.
This post got lost in the mire, deserves more attention.
I would love to see ManU finish 6th or lower so we can all get a first hand look at how damning missing out on European competitions is to a club financially. Granted, this may not be a fair test, given the fact that ManU is not your typical club... but it would be a nice treat to see ManU actually going thru what people have said Arsenal may go thru these past few years.
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cruyff_turn
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dream_team
Jan 28 2014, 03:32 AM
dream_team
Jan 27 2014, 01:39 PM
cruyff_turn
Jan 27 2014, 01:27 PM
pretty poor article there, if I'm to be honest.
The writer missed some important key points

1)This year we have Everton,Liverpool,Tottenham and Man united fighting for the 4th spot
2)Unlike in the past where Arsenal was competing with ONLY one team for 4th spot, in most cases it was spurs , on one occasion it's been Aston villa and on another occasion I think it was Everton.
3) And we all know that Aston villa team and the Everton team are no where near as good as united competitors this season
4)Finally what is he on about comparing Mata's sale to RVP?, RVP was the first name on Wenger's team sheet, Mata not so much with Mourinho, talk about 'false equivalence'. Add the £37mil offer for a player who mourinho hates to it and you'll realise how ridiculous the author sounds.
I noticed Cruyff couldn't reply to this because I've illustrated that the battle for the 4th spot was easier then than now, and overall i've exposed the flaws in that 'article'.
Actually I just misplaced your response among the ridiculousness that sprouted in the thread. I didn't submit that link as the base of my argument, but just another part of the perspective.
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supercollider7
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Good article. What have been more appropriate last year when these journalists were too busy mocking us to realize what was up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/10601900/Arsenal-have-reached-their-Promised-Land-Why-2014-is-such-a-big-year-for-Arsene-Wenger-and-the-Gunners.html
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jays712
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mlshock35
Jan 28 2014, 11:18 AM
supercollider7
Jan 28 2014, 09:56 AM
phatosas
Jan 27 2014, 05:50 PM
This question is for those that think it is crazy to offer Wenger a contract now because he hasnt won a trophy in 8 years. If you were in charge of running the club, what would you do? Fire him right now and bring a new manager to see out the season? How about wait for him to see out the season and make a decision based on the success or failure of the team. I hope you realize that if you dont offer him a contract now, chances are he could walk away at the end of the season. Now imagine winning the league and your manager walking out the door, now that would be tough to explain. I think people also dont realize that changing managers doesnt necessarily guarantee success. It is easy enough to change managers when you back it up with millions of dollars but if you are still spending within your means, throwing in a manager with your budget is really risky. Right now the Glazers have lost millions, would lose more if they dont qualify for Europe and they are going to spend almost 200mil just to get back to challenging and there is no certainty if that would take them back to the top. Anyway if you believe this is the wrong move, then let me know what you would do if you were in charge of running the club.
This post got lost in the mire, deserves more attention.
I would love to see ManU finish 6th or lower so we can all get a first hand look at how damning missing out on European competitions is to a club financially. Granted, this may not be a fair test, given the fact that ManU is not your typical club... but it would be a nice treat to see ManU actually going thru what people have said Arsenal may go thru these past few years.
I don't think it would really hurt them financially. Some shell games with their stocks or some bullshit would keep them active in the transfer market. The bigger issue is would be players not wanting to go there since they wouldnt be in the CL and Moyes isn't SAF.
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dsch15
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jays712
Jan 28 2014, 11:22 AM
mlshock35
Jan 28 2014, 11:18 AM
supercollider7
Jan 28 2014, 09:56 AM
phatosas
Jan 27 2014, 05:50 PM
This question is for those that think it is crazy to offer Wenger a contract now because he hasnt won a trophy in 8 years. If you were in charge of running the club, what would you do? Fire him right now and bring a new manager to see out the season? How about wait for him to see out the season and make a decision based on the success or failure of the team. I hope you realize that if you dont offer him a contract now, chances are he could walk away at the end of the season. Now imagine winning the league and your manager walking out the door, now that would be tough to explain. I think people also dont realize that changing managers doesnt necessarily guarantee success. It is easy enough to change managers when you back it up with millions of dollars but if you are still spending within your means, throwing in a manager with your budget is really risky. Right now the Glazers have lost millions, would lose more if they dont qualify for Europe and they are going to spend almost 200mil just to get back to challenging and there is no certainty if that would take them back to the top. Anyway if you believe this is the wrong move, then let me know what you would do if you were in charge of running the club.
This post got lost in the mire, deserves more attention.
I would love to see ManU finish 6th or lower so we can all get a first hand look at how damning missing out on European competitions is to a club financially. Granted, this may not be a fair test, given the fact that ManU is not your typical club... but it would be a nice treat to see ManU actually going thru what people have said Arsenal may go thru these past few years.
I don't think it would really hurt them financially. Some shell games with their stocks or some bullshit would keep them active in the transfer market. The bigger issue is would be players not wanting to go there since they wouldnt be in the CL and Moyes isn't SAF.
They're having a season that looks quite like some of our recent ones - complete with a season saving(?) January signing and the timely return from injury of key players (Rooney and RvP). Fellaini's return may also boost them. I'm still picking United for a top four finish.
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dream_team
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supercollider7
Jan 28 2014, 09:53 AM
KamyFC
Jan 27 2014, 11:32 PM
Wow. So we move away from Nike to Puma. We have Nike shops here but i never see Puma stores!
The deal is worth more than £30m a year. This will definitely boost our purchasing power.

By the way Puma's biggest name athlete is Jamaican runner Usain Bolt.
Excuse me? They have Thierry Henry.
shush, don't let santry hear that!
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dream_team
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Let's give an example of how finishing below the top 4 can affect a club shall we.?
Let's choose a good example Juventus, they experienced something FAR WORSE than missing out of a top 4. They got relegated about 7 years ago, they got promoted in their first season in serie B, and then finished 3rd in their first season back in Serie A. In other words they were back in the UCL after 2 years of relegation, not that difficult is it? Lest we forget when all these was going on they also built a new stadium.
Missing out of the top 4 is quite not the same as Arsenal or united getting relegated to the championship, so I don't get where the idea that 'if you miss out of the top 4 then you are doomed', came from?

Liverpool haven't been able to get back in the UCL because they've been wasting money kenny daglish was the worst culprit.

Phato I don't get where you got the £200m figure from, if united finish out of the top 4, all they have to do is finish above spurs, everton and Liverpool not that difficult is it? you surely don't need £200m for that. Considering the fact that spurs have been in the CL before, but the participation in the CL cost them the qulification for the next, that could easily be the case for whoever finishes top 4 among those teams. Infact I'm willing to bet that if one of those 3 finish top this season, they won't finish top 4 the following year.
Edited by dream_team, Jan 28 2014, 12:39 PM.
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
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JODB
supercollider7
Jan 28 2014, 10:34 AM
Also, the "no trophies, period" argument is rather silly.

From everything we've learned, we know that Wenger was given very limited funds after the Emirates project started (that is a fact), and he was told to prioritize CL football over the cups. Hence why when we were fighting for a top 4 spot Wenger would play weaker teams in the FA Cup and focus on the league.

Yes, if we were a small club with no hope of European football we could've thrown all of our eggs in the League or FA Cup basket and won them once or twice, but it means very little if you're finishing midtable behind clubs like Everton.

Losing CL is a lot like getting relegated, because suddenly you're not in the top tier competition anymore, you're not testing yourself against the best. I have argued this for years, that it wasn't just about the money, but also about keeping the club's image and reputation intact by keeping us in the highest competition.

The "no trophies" argument also fails to acknowledge the fact that while we didn't ultimately win anything, we were competitive. In 2006 we were in the CL final. There were two league cup finals and a few times we were involved in the title race as well. And always made it into CL knockout stages.

So at least admit the fact that Arsenal fought bravely against the big teams and only lost out because Chelsea, City, and United spent hundreds of millions to beat us, often buying our own players.

Also you need to acknowledge the fact that we lost key players almost every season, without the funds to replace them like for like. It's difficult for any manager to build a competitive team when they lost key players every year.
Especially Wenger's style of football which "requires a blind understanding" between teammates.

But when I mentioned Wenger's success, I meant the future success that we're about to have. Why am I optimistic, because Wenger is building (and it isn't complete yet) a fantastic team, that plays a way no one else is really capable of. I can only see this team getting better and better.

We may come up short again this year, but the club has what it takes now to go toe-to-toe with the biggest clubs and beat them. We'll continue to take steps forward and keep developing this team. And it's all because of how well Wenger has managed. There have been mistakes of course, and I still don't think everything is perfect, but overall he's done a very good job keeping us competitive and laying a foundation for us to have a successful team again.
Wenger actually kept Arsenal in the CL on a shoestring budget (relatively speaking) far longer than was originally intended when The Emirates was conceived and built. What made the privately financed project work was the accompanying real estate component at Ashburton Grove. As the bubble burst in 2007, moneys from sales that were projected to take care of much of the debt somewhat dried up. And still, the gaffer kept the club's CL ship afloat.

But to the unreasonable chimps who continue with the childish "but it's been eight years mom," this fact is merely another "excuse," so I no longer take the time to engage them reasonably as you have here. I refuse to negotiate with terrorists; I prefer to ridicule them instead, cuz as far as I can tell, that's all that their simplistic arguments and ideas are deserving of.

I'll ask the piz one more time though, who's a better Gooner, Piers or Arsene?
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jays712
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dream_team
Jan 28 2014, 12:37 PM
Let's give an example of how finishing below the top 4 can affect a club shall we.?
Let's choose a good example Juventus, they experienced something FAR WORSE than missing out of a top 4. They got relegated about 7 years ago, they got promoted in their first season in serie B, and then finished 3rd in their first season back in Serie A. In other words they were back in the UCL after 2 years of relegation, not that difficult is it? Lest we forget when all these was going on they also built a new stadium.
Missing out of the top 4 is quite not the same as Arsenal or united getting relegated to the championship, so I don't get where the idea that 'if you miss out of the top 4 then you are doomed', came from?

Liverpool haven't been able to get back in the UCL because they've been wasting money kenny daglish was the worst culprit.

Phato I don't get where you got the £200m figure from, if united finish out of the top 4, all they have to do is finish above spurs, everton and Liverpool not that difficult is it? you surely don't need £200m for that. Considering the fact that spurs have been in the CL before, but the participation in the CL cost them the qulification for the next, that could easily be the case for whoever finishes top 4 among those teams. Infact I'm willing to bet that if one of those 3 finish top this season, they won't finish top 4 the following year.
Juve built a smaller stadium at about a third of the price of the Emirates. They also didn't get relegated because they stunk, they got relegated due to fixing matches. While some players left, many like Buffon and Del Piero stayed. When they came back after one season In the lower level, they still had a really good team so no surprise they finished as high as they did. A better example of mortgaging everything on CL qualifying is Leeds United. They still haven't recovered.
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