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OT:Americans and guns
Topic Started: Jan 28 2014, 08:01 AM (623 Views)
supercollider7
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mlshock35
Jan 28 2014, 10:56 AM
The NSA debate is an interesting one... First of all I do not think the NSA is literally listening to or reading 200million phone calls and txts per day. I think they are scanning for "red flags" such as middle of the night phone calls to Yemen from a parking garage in NYC that initiate wire transfers to bank accounts in the Caymans.... and then they follow up accordingly.

I think THE GOV IS LISTENING!!! plays well in the press and thats what they are running with.

And I am a bit with Jays on this where I have nothing to hide.... Now if the gov knocks on my door and wants to take my phone away and look for stuff, I'd like a warrant and probable cause. If you want to have a random look see that does not disrupt my day to day life.... enjoy... and prepared to be bored into a coma.
What the NSA is doing is wrong because it's taking away our rights.
For a long time in the world people had no rights and the monarchs could put you away for no reason at all.

The problem with the NSA and patriot act and our abandonment of Habeus Corpus means that we're now, for some reason, going back to that time.

It doesn't happen in the US but in other countries the government does spy on you, and uses whatever information they get to blackmail you, or detain you. It happens. And we're naive to think that we aren't heading in that direction.

The government shouldn't be listening. I agree they're not going through millions of calls and listening to each one, but everything you write in an email, everything you say on the phone, that you think is private, is being recorded. And the fact that it exists for the government to look at, means it can be used against you for whatever reason if they want.

We let the government do whatever they want, because we live comfortable lives and it doesn't affect us (even though thousands of innocents die abroad), but it will come back to bite us if we don't put an end to it right now. They've already gone way too far and if we don't resist they'll only get worse. Obama only built on what Bush started post 9/11. And now the next President who charms his way into office will only build upon this abuse of power, and so on.
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
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JODB
On guns, though I don't have one, if others want to responsibly acquire, store and use them, I support their right to do so. The cowboy laws that allow conceal and carry in various states, including the right to carry a firearm into a bar, plus the "stand your ground" laws sponsored by the American Legislative Exchange Council are dumb and dangerous.

But as far as the assault weapons go, the domestic police forces should never be better armed than the population in general when it comes to firepower. The armed forces can have whatever they wish because they are constitutionally prohibited from attacking the citizenry, but if there is no reason for everyday Americans to have assault weapons, then there is no need for the cops to have them either.

As to the NSA, what they are doing with the data that they are collecting today is only a small part of the issue. The bigger problem is that meta data (records of where, when and who you call or hear from) is actually far more revealing than listening in on folks, and if that power was to fall into the hands of a future President with a more fascistic approach to ruling than Obama, it could be used for persecution of dissidents as opposed to tracking down terrorists.

Fuck the bulk collection of meta data and the illusion of safety that it attempts to foster. As Grand Master Benjie Franklin said back in 1755, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Edited by JustOneDennisBergkamp, Jan 28 2014, 01:25 PM.
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Joe Bobs Fine Foods
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:22 PM
On guns, though I don't have one, if others want to responsibly acquire, store and use them, I support their right to do so. The cowboy laws that allow conceal and carry in various states, including the right to carry a firearm into a bar, plus the "stand your ground" laws sponsored by the American Legislative Exchange Council are dumb and dangerous.

But as far as the assault weapons go, the domestic police forces should never be better armed than the population in general when it comes to firepower. The armed forces can have whatever they wish because they are constitutionally prohibited from attacking the citizenry, but if there is no reason for everyday Americans to have assault weapons, then there is no need for the cops to have them either.

As to the NSA, what they are doing with the data that they are collecting today is only a small part of the issue. The bigger problem is that meta data (records of where, when and who you call or hear from) is actually far more revealing than listening in on folks, and if that power was to fall into the hands of a future President with a more fascistic approach to ruling than Obama, it could be used for persecution of dissidents as opposed to tracking down terrorists.

Fuck the bulk collection of meta data and the illusion of safety that it attempts to foster. As Grand Master Benjie Franklin said back in 1755, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
While I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, Franklin's quote is flawed: people living in civilized societies have always traded liberty for security, its only a question of degree.
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dsch15
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Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 01:36 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:22 PM
On guns, though I don't have one, if others want to responsibly acquire, store and use them, I support their right to do so. The cowboy laws that allow conceal and carry in various states, including the right to carry a firearm into a bar, plus the "stand your ground" laws sponsored by the American Legislative Exchange Council are dumb and dangerous.

But as far as the assault weapons go, the domestic police forces should never be better armed than the population in general when it comes to firepower. The armed forces can have whatever they wish because they are constitutionally prohibited from attacking the citizenry, but if there is no reason for everyday Americans to have assault weapons, then there is no need for the cops to have them either.

As to the NSA, what they are doing with the data that they are collecting today is only a small part of the issue. The bigger problem is that meta data (records of where, when and who you call or hear from) is actually far more revealing than listening in on folks, and if that power was to fall into the hands of a future President with a more fascistic approach to ruling than Obama, it could be used for persecution of dissidents as opposed to tracking down terrorists.

Fuck the bulk collection of meta data and the illusion of safety that it attempts to foster. As Grand Master Benjie Franklin said back in 1755, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
While I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, Franklin's quote is flawed: people living in civilized societies have always traded liberty for security, its only a question of degree.
I suspect that's what he meant by essential. Liberty has never been, nor should it be, absolute.
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Joe Bobs Fine Foods
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dsch15
Jan 28 2014, 01:45 PM
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 01:36 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:22 PM
On guns, though I don't have one, if others want to responsibly acquire, store and use them, I support their right to do so. The cowboy laws that allow conceal and carry in various states, including the right to carry a firearm into a bar, plus the "stand your ground" laws sponsored by the American Legislative Exchange Council are dumb and dangerous.

But as far as the assault weapons go, the domestic police forces should never be better armed than the population in general when it comes to firepower. The armed forces can have whatever they wish because they are constitutionally prohibited from attacking the citizenry, but if there is no reason for everyday Americans to have assault weapons, then there is no need for the cops to have them either.

As to the NSA, what they are doing with the data that they are collecting today is only a small part of the issue. The bigger problem is that meta data (records of where, when and who you call or hear from) is actually far more revealing than listening in on folks, and if that power was to fall into the hands of a future President with a more fascistic approach to ruling than Obama, it could be used for persecution of dissidents as opposed to tracking down terrorists.

Fuck the bulk collection of meta data and the illusion of safety that it attempts to foster. As Grand Master Benjie Franklin said back in 1755, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
While I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, Franklin's quote is flawed: people living in civilized societies have always traded liberty for security, its only a question of degree.
I suspect that's what he meant by essential. Liberty has never been, nor should it be, absolute.
Trouble being "essential" left open to personal interpretation.

Sort of like the second amendment.
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cruyff_turn
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I've got a 20-gauge and 12-gauge shotgun. They are locked in a safe. I used to hunt a lot more than I do now (mainly shooting skeet these days). America definitely has a gun culture problem. It's probably too late for legislation to be very effective, but I was behind most of Barry's proposals that followed the Newtown tragedy.
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dsch15
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Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 01:48 PM
dsch15
Jan 28 2014, 01:45 PM
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 01:36 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:22 PM
On guns, though I don't have one, if others want to responsibly acquire, store and use them, I support their right to do so. The cowboy laws that allow conceal and carry in various states, including the right to carry a firearm into a bar, plus the "stand your ground" laws sponsored by the American Legislative Exchange Council are dumb and dangerous.

But as far as the assault weapons go, the domestic police forces should never be better armed than the population in general when it comes to firepower. The armed forces can have whatever they wish because they are constitutionally prohibited from attacking the citizenry, but if there is no reason for everyday Americans to have assault weapons, then there is no need for the cops to have them either.

As to the NSA, what they are doing with the data that they are collecting today is only a small part of the issue. The bigger problem is that meta data (records of where, when and who you call or hear from) is actually far more revealing than listening in on folks, and if that power was to fall into the hands of a future President with a more fascistic approach to ruling than Obama, it could be used for persecution of dissidents as opposed to tracking down terrorists.

Fuck the bulk collection of meta data and the illusion of safety that it attempts to foster. As Grand Master Benjie Franklin said back in 1755, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
While I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, Franklin's quote is flawed: people living in civilized societies have always traded liberty for security, its only a question of degree.
I suspect that's what he meant by essential. Liberty has never been, nor should it be, absolute.
Trouble being "essential" left open to personal interpretation.

Sort of like the second amendment.
Not entirely open. Franklin left enough of a paper trail that I think we can pin down pretty closely what he and his fellow revolutionaries considered essential.
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
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JODB
Franklin's quote is my favorite from those founding fellas, and it has perhaps never been more relevant than today. From snooping on the citizenry to imperialism abroad, Obama is the third-term of Bush, and worse in many ways.
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dsch15
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Franklin's quote is my favorite from those founding fellas, and it has perhaps never been more relevant than today. From snooping on the citizenry to imperialism abroad, Obama is the third-term of Bush, and worse in many ways.
I'd add these to the list of favorites, both from Thomas Paine:

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
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JODB
dsch15
Jan 28 2014, 02:01 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Franklin's quote is my favorite from those founding fellas, and it has perhaps never been more relevant than today. From snooping on the citizenry to imperialism abroad, Obama is the third-term of Bush, and worse in many ways.
I'd add these to the list of favorites, both from Thomas Paine:

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.
I hate Nazi's, but I support their right to march and express themselves. I can't stand the clowns that yell at women as the enter abortion clinics, but I support their right to put forth their pro-life message.

It would be much easier if the rest of you simply thought the way that I do.
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