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OT:Americans and guns
Topic Started: Jan 28 2014, 08:01 AM (622 Views)
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
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dsch15
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 01:48 PM
dsch15
Jan 28 2014, 01:45 PM
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 01:36 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:22 PM
On guns, though I don't have one, if others want to responsibly acquire, store and use them, I support their right to do so. The cowboy laws that allow conceal and carry in various states, including the right to carry a firearm into a bar, plus the "stand your ground" laws sponsored by the American Legislative Exchange Council are dumb and dangerous.

But as far as the assault weapons go, the domestic police forces should never be better armed than the population in general when it comes to firepower. The armed forces can have whatever they wish because they are constitutionally prohibited from attacking the citizenry, but if there is no reason for everyday Americans to have assault weapons, then there is no need for the cops to have them either.

As to the NSA, what they are doing with the data that they are collecting today is only a small part of the issue. The bigger problem is that meta data (records of where, when and who you call or hear from) is actually far more revealing than listening in on folks, and if that power was to fall into the hands of a future President with a more fascistic approach to ruling than Obama, it could be used for persecution of dissidents as opposed to tracking down terrorists.

Fuck the bulk collection of meta data and the illusion of safety that it attempts to foster. As Grand Master Benjie Franklin said back in 1755, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
While I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, Franklin's quote is flawed: people living in civilized societies have always traded liberty for security, its only a question of degree.
I suspect that's what he meant by essential. Liberty has never been, nor should it be, absolute.
Trouble being "essential" left open to personal interpretation.

Sort of like the second amendment.
Not entirely open. Franklin left enough of a paper trail that I think we can pin down pretty closely what he and his fellow revolutionaries considered essential.
I'd say that in general the FFs were, as often as not, intentionally vague.
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Joe Bobs Fine Foods
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Franklin's quote is my favorite from those founding fellas, and it has perhaps never been more relevant than today. From snooping on the citizenry to imperialism abroad, Obama is the third-term of Bush, and worse in many ways.
I have plenty of issues with Obama, but I think calling him the same as Bush is unfair. Obama inherited impossible situations. Bush created them.
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dsch15
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Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 02:15 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Franklin's quote is my favorite from those founding fellas, and it has perhaps never been more relevant than today. From snooping on the citizenry to imperialism abroad, Obama is the third-term of Bush, and worse in many ways.
I have plenty of issues with Obama, but I think calling him the same as Bush is unfair. Obama inherited impossible situations. Bush created them.
I think that 'get out of jail' card has expired. Every president inherits nasty problems. At some point he has to own them. It's the nature of the job.
Edited by dsch15, Jan 28 2014, 02:22 PM.
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dsch15
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Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 02:12 PM
dsch15
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 01:48 PM
dsch15
Jan 28 2014, 01:45 PM
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 01:36 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:22 PM
On guns, though I don't have one, if others want to responsibly acquire, store and use them, I support their right to do so. The cowboy laws that allow conceal and carry in various states, including the right to carry a firearm into a bar, plus the "stand your ground" laws sponsored by the American Legislative Exchange Council are dumb and dangerous.

But as far as the assault weapons go, the domestic police forces should never be better armed than the population in general when it comes to firepower. The armed forces can have whatever they wish because they are constitutionally prohibited from attacking the citizenry, but if there is no reason for everyday Americans to have assault weapons, then there is no need for the cops to have them either.

As to the NSA, what they are doing with the data that they are collecting today is only a small part of the issue. The bigger problem is that meta data (records of where, when and who you call or hear from) is actually far more revealing than listening in on folks, and if that power was to fall into the hands of a future President with a more fascistic approach to ruling than Obama, it could be used for persecution of dissidents as opposed to tracking down terrorists.

Fuck the bulk collection of meta data and the illusion of safety that it attempts to foster. As Grand Master Benjie Franklin said back in 1755, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
While I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, Franklin's quote is flawed: people living in civilized societies have always traded liberty for security, its only a question of degree.
I suspect that's what he meant by essential. Liberty has never been, nor should it be, absolute.
Trouble being "essential" left open to personal interpretation.

Sort of like the second amendment.
Not entirely open. Franklin left enough of a paper trail that I think we can pin down pretty closely what he and his fellow revolutionaries considered essential.
I'd say that in general the FFs were, as often as not, intentionally vague.
Inspired partly, I'm sure, by the need for compromise. But I don't find Franklin particularly vague in his personal statements.
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
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JODB
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 02:15 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Franklin's quote is my favorite from those founding fellas, and it has perhaps never been more relevant than today. From snooping on the citizenry to imperialism abroad, Obama is the third-term of Bush, and worse in many ways.
I have plenty of issues with Obama, but I think calling him the same as Bush is unfair. Obama inherited impossible situations. Bush created them.
The new security state under Obama has been Bush on steroids. How about we add to his fascistic tendencies the fact that his administration has been more punitive to whistle blowers than any one in the past, having invoked the Espionage Act more than twice as many times as all of his predecessors combined.

Obama is no more than the black face of American imperialism abroad and corporate fascism at home. How could anyone who had to raise over a billion bucks to become President be anything else?
Edited by JustOneDennisBergkamp, Jan 28 2014, 02:30 PM.
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dsch15
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 02:29 PM
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 02:15 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Franklin's quote is my favorite from those founding fellas, and it has perhaps never been more relevant than today. From snooping on the citizenry to imperialism abroad, Obama is the third-term of Bush, and worse in many ways.
I have plenty of issues with Obama, but I think calling him the same as Bush is unfair. Obama inherited impossible situations. Bush created them.
The new security state under Obama has been Bush on steroids. How about we add to his fascistic tendencies the fact that his administration has been more punitive to whistle blowers than any one in the past, having invoked the Espionage Act more than twice as many times as all of his predecessors combined.

Obama is no more than the black face of American imperialism abroad and corporate fascism at home. How could anyone who had to raise over a billion bucks to become President be anything else?
Should probably run from this as I can feel the common ground slipping out from under me in the face of buzzwords like "imperialism" and "corporate fascism", but this is exceptionally harsh and ignores the obstructive legislature and conservative supreme court that our separation of powers requires he work with.
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Joe Bobs Fine Foods
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dsch15
Jan 28 2014, 02:22 PM
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 02:15 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Franklin's quote is my favorite from those founding fellas, and it has perhaps never been more relevant than today. From snooping on the citizenry to imperialism abroad, Obama is the third-term of Bush, and worse in many ways.
I have plenty of issues with Obama, but I think calling him the same as Bush is unfair. Obama inherited impossible situations. Bush created them.
I think that 'get out of jail' card has expired. Every president inherits nasty problems. At some point he has to own them. It's the nature of the job.
Again not fair to compare what other presidents inherited, there is no comparison. Obama got:

--Biggest recession since depression
--Iraq
--Tea Party

Frankly, if you look at where the country is today (at least economically) vs where it was in December 2008, you could make a case for his greatness, particularly given the environment he exists in.

Plus he loves the Bears and the White Sox.
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
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JODB
dsch15
Jan 28 2014, 02:37 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 02:29 PM
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 02:15 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Franklin's quote is my favorite from those founding fellas, and it has perhaps never been more relevant than today. From snooping on the citizenry to imperialism abroad, Obama is the third-term of Bush, and worse in many ways.
I have plenty of issues with Obama, but I think calling him the same as Bush is unfair. Obama inherited impossible situations. Bush created them.
The new security state under Obama has been Bush on steroids. How about we add to his fascistic tendencies the fact that his administration has been more punitive to whistle blowers than any one in the past, having invoked the Espionage Act more than twice as many times as all of his predecessors combined.

Obama is no more than the black face of American imperialism abroad and corporate fascism at home. How could anyone who had to raise over a billion bucks to become President be anything else?
Should probably run from this as I can feel the common ground slipping out from under me in the face of buzzwords like "imperialism" and "corporate fascism", but this is exceptionally harsh and ignores the obstructive legislature and conservative supreme court that our separation of powers requires he work with.
I ignore neither of the other two branches and their share of the blame. They're mostly co-conspirators against the rights and welfare of the people along with El Presidente.

Only a small part of that billion came from $5 contributions. Our politicians are beholden to and totally afraid of big money, and until that cycle is broken, Obama, or any other Pres for that matter, can't be expected to be any different as I have described.

I am confident that both Noam Chomsky and Glen Greenwald are in agreement with my assessment of Obam. And lets us remember that Bush was a rich mindless frat boy; Barak is a former constitutional lawyer. He knows better, but he has made his deal with the devils.
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jays712
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The buzzwords always make me cringe. I can remember about 3-4 years ago really getting into watching MSNBC and Fox News for a period of several months. I was never so informed and never so miserable and never so antagonistic in my life. I had to quit those channels cold turkey. Those channles are truly the worst of the worst and one of the big reasons politics has become so openly divisive in the US.
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Joe Bobs Fine Foods
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JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 02:29 PM
Joe Bobs Fine Foods
Jan 28 2014, 02:15 PM
JustOneDennisBergkamp
Jan 28 2014, 01:55 PM
Franklin's quote is my favorite from those founding fellas, and it has perhaps never been more relevant than today. From snooping on the citizenry to imperialism abroad, Obama is the third-term of Bush, and worse in many ways.
I have plenty of issues with Obama, but I think calling him the same as Bush is unfair. Obama inherited impossible situations. Bush created them.
The new security state under Obama has been Bush on steroids. How about we add to his fascistic tendencies the fact that his administration has been more punitive to whistle blowers than any one in the past, having invoked the Espionage Act more than twice as many times as all of his predecessors combined.

Obama is no more than the black face of American imperialism abroad and corporate fascism at home. How could anyone who had to raise over a billion bucks to become President be anything else?
I think your are over-stating things (which is not to say you are wrong - I am with you on the corporate). And, as much as I hate to invoke an argument used to inspire the simplest among us, there ARE people trying to blow us up all the time.

But alas there is a match starting.
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