| New Suarez Development | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 24 2013, 09:44 AM (1,963 Views) | |
| jays712 | Jul 28 2013, 06:37 AM Post #91 |
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A statement would be signing a big player. After Suarez, there really isn't another top striker out there to be had. If there is, than please give me someone to consider. I'm getting awfully nervous over here. |
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| phatosas | Jul 28 2013, 07:21 AM Post #92 |
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First of all I watched as many Manchester United games as were televised in the United States just as I watched Liverpool games. I dont know how you came to conclusion that Van Persie was a passenger in a lot of games. All United friends that I have kept saying thank you Arsenal every time Van Persie scored a goal. If you didnt say Van Persie was a passenger all season, what is the relevance in this debate? Messi was a passenger against Bayern, what does that mean? In any case one guy was a passenger in a lot of games last season, the other guy was ever present yet they have the same number of goals and assist. Now the only way to compare strikers is to look at goals and assists, it is not like the goals Van Persie scored were a fluke, he scores some of the best goals ever seen in the history of football. He wasnt scoring the goals in bunches, he is a consistent goal scorer. He only failed to score against Norwich City, Queens Park Rangers and Swansea City in the league all season. How is he a passenger if he only failed to score against 3 teams? He scored 3 more premier league goals that Suarez and he is winning the golden boot for the second consecutive season. He scored more goals for Arsenal than he did for United so the quality of teams really doesnt matter. Again as I said before just looking at the last 3 seasons where Van Persie has managed to stay fit, there is absolutely nothing to show that Suarez is a better player. Edited by phatosas, Jul 28 2013, 07:23 AM.
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| Deleted User | Jul 28 2013, 09:43 AM Post #93 |
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first quick point I would like to make the entire 11 of barca and not just messi were poor against bayern, probably only 2 man utd players didn't play really well in both legs of the Real madrid tie, RVP was one of thos 2. Ok let's actually remind us why we are having this debate in the first place. it started when Arsnal made an opening bid of £30m, you were against it in the first place saying we are blowing money and Suarez wasn't even worth £30m, the club even annoyed you more by offering liverpool £40m for suarez. You said suarez isn't a £40m players , you did say a £40m player should be unstoppable, when asked to give an example of that unstoppable striker you used RVP. So you think RVP is worth £40m and suarez is not even up to a £30m player, that's what I have problem with. You are painting a picture that RVP is a far better player than suarez, which isn't the case. I made the point that Suarez was better than RVP last season my reasons are clear: RVP is surrounded by better players. And at the moment I think Suarez is the better player, add the fact that he's 4 years younger than RVP, then u'll understand why Arsenal did bid £40m for him. "He scored 3 more premier league goals that Suarez" - he also played 5 more premiership games phato so RVP played more games than suarez last season in all competition, played in a team 27 points better than suarez, yet suarez was still able to score the same number of goals. If Suarez was playing for man city or Chelsea, heck even Arsenal or spurs comparing his goal tally to RVP's would have made sense, but do you really think comparing the goal tally of a player who plays for the best epl club last season to a player of the 8th best is fair? The fact that RVP scored more goals in an Arsenal shirt and actually played better in an Arsenal shirt gives a hint that there's already a slight decline. |
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| gundamn | Jul 28 2013, 11:19 AM Post #94 |
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Slight decline or his previous year being in a club that suited his playing style? Not saying he may or may not be declining because he's almost 30. Strikers who put up good numbers aren't always dominant in games because they are usually marked well for the majority but when they strike they are lethal. Personally I don't think there is too much difference in quality of the top 5 strikers in the bpl. It's horses for courses. They bring different qualities that make them potent threats against defenses. If the argument is based on worth, how is Gareth Bale worth 100 mil? I guess your worth as much as you are going to be sold for. I wouldn't want Arsenal to go over 45-50 mil because we do need some reinforcements in other areas. |
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| phatosas | Jul 28 2013, 01:02 PM Post #95 |
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I think we are now mixing up two things, player valuation and player quality. I don't think there is a massive gap between Van Persie and Suarez in quality but I think Van Persie is a better player and the numbers prove that much. I also think Van Persie is a much difficult player to play against despite their different playing styles. Van Persie doesn't have pace so he is not going to run around trying to beat people with the ball. He just moves around the box looking for little pockets of space. If he gets a couple of yards, he is dangerous anywhere in the box. Suarez is a different player, he is a buzzing little player with close ball control and pace. The problem is I have now seen two players like that, Tevez and Aguero who have had excellent seasons and struggle to replicate it scoring wise. I am convinced that no matter what Suarez does, he can't score 30 goals next season. If we end up spending 40 mil on him, we would get a player that would not come close to replicating what he did last season and living up to his current valuation. Now to valuation, when we sold Van Persie, I had no problem with the price. He was an aging player with a lot of injury history. At best he still has two or three more seasons left in that body. I think Suarez is probably worth a little more than what Liverpool paid for him despite the 30 goal season. Now when you include the character issues, I would find it hard to pay anything more than 20 mil pounds for him. Coming into the summer he was seen as a serious liability that Liverpool might want to get rid of. I am amazed that right now Arsenal have offered 40 mil and Liverpool have actually laughed at our bid...Amazing stuff |
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| Deleted User | Jul 28 2013, 04:18 PM Post #96 |
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I'm sure getting rid of suarez is the last thing Liverpool would want to do considering their inability to break into the top 6 in recent years never mind top 4, if not they would have bit arsenal hand off when we made a £40m, they know how difficult it is to replace one of the best players in the world. And I've said it several times ban or no ban behaviour or no behaviour Suarez still makes a MASSIVE difference to that liverpool side and he will at arsenal too. Good luck to getting Suarez for £20m, you won't even get benteke for that amount. I think several people here (I think JODB is one of them) have made the point that suarez is much more than goals he does get a lot of assists, and works hard on the pitch, putting pressure on opposing defenders, chasing balls that most strikers would give up on, I've seen him do these several times both for liverpool and uruguay. When you have a talented guy like Suarez doing such things, it is invaluable and I find it ridiculous(no insults intended) that you find it hard to pay £20m for him. you are convinced Suarez would not come close to replicating his goal scoring form last season? based on what? Certainly not based on tevez and aguero because the comparison is off the mark The tevez and aguero comparison is just off the mark here, phato which city player was able to replicate any sort of form of the title winning season last season? probaly none except zabaleta. The entire team failed phato you can judge aguero in that, how are you sure if aguero won't score 30 goals next season and the season after ? are you gonna base your argument on that failure of a season for MCFC? as for Tevez, he was never a great goal scorer even in his united days, the great goal scoring season he had was with city he scored 29 goal in one season, the next season he scored 23 just slightly less, and then the next season he went AWOL and the next season we all knew no one in city played well, and it was rotation galore at city anyways. Rooney has been a great player for man utd including seasons where he played as a striker and scored only 16 goals and 18 goals, yet your main concern is that Suarez won't score 30 goals. Let me put it this way how many goals do you think Suarez is capable of scoring for Arsenal ? bearing in mind that even Giroud scored 17 last year do you even think he's an upgrade to Giroud? because the way you are talking is like this guy won't even improve our side, |
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| phatosas | Jul 29 2013, 06:06 AM Post #97 |
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Arsenal were in exactly the same situation with Liverpool last year, we had a striker that just scored 37 goals but didnt want to be here. We sold him and also sold our second most influential player Song, who was a defensive midfielder that had lost his discipline on and off the pitch. We signed Giroud, Cazorla and Poldoski. If you look at the transfer fees, what we spent was covered by what we sold. Although we didnt get the same type of production individually from any of the players, collectively we had a much better team. When a player wants to leave, you have to let them go. There is no point trying to keep them at the club. Now I dont know what Arsenal were thinking, we have offered an obscene amount of money for him, the whole idea of inserting that clause in his contract was because nobody ever believed that somebody will trigger the clause. I also dont know what Liverpool are thinking, 40 mil for Suarez and they reject it? Now to replicating those numbers, I dont think he has the ability to repeat it. Teams would be more focused on stopping him this season and I think he is stoppable. The dynamics of this summer would also play a role, he wants to leave Liverpool, if the force him to stay he would be less committed and not score as many goals. On paper it looks like if he comes to Arsenal he would just double what Giroud did but it doesnt work like that. I dont think a smallish player would work in a 4-3-3 formation. The only club that does that is Barcelona and Messi plays a false 9 role where he is almost a pseudo midfielder/playmaker operating from deep and therefore hard for defenders to pick up. We are not even taking into consideration the change of clubs which can cost a player a few goals. Add to that his suspension which would mean he would start playing for Arsenal about a month into the season. That is almost like starting the season with an injured player. Edited by phatosas, Jul 29 2013, 06:09 AM.
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| Deleted User | Jul 29 2013, 06:59 AM Post #98 |
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Does the fact that Arsenal are willing to pay £40m for suarez, and the fact that liverpool won't even let him go for £40m tell you anything phato. Surely both liverpool and Arsenal are not stupid, they clearly agree with most of us that Suarez is world class. And I see no reason why suarez can't play in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 whichever name you want to give the formation. In aguero first season , city alternated between 4-4-2, and the 4-5-5/4-2-3-1 formation with aguero playing as the no 9 in the middle and he did score a lot of goals in the process. A more recent example wasn't defoe among the league top scores earlier in the season before getting injured. Spurs were playing 4-3-3 with defoe in the middle, defoe was playing really well in that role that AVB went as far as saying he won't swap defoe for even falcao or cavani. So why can't suarez do the same, infact was suarez not playing as the no 9 in the middle of a 4-3-3 for the most part of last season? |
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| rta_67 | Jul 29 2013, 12:58 PM Post #99 |
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I have no idea why Phato thinks Suarez cannot play in the middle in a 433. He has been doing that for some time now for both club and country and doing it rather well by most accounts. Not sure where he played while at Ajax. BTW, Suarez is not small unless you consider 5' 11'' smallish. That is probably a nice build that gives him a good combination of mobility and strength on the ball.
Edited by rta_67, Jul 29 2013, 01:04 PM.
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| phatosas | Jul 29 2013, 02:07 PM Post #100 |
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It tells me that Arsenal are stupid but Liverpool are also stupid, or maybe they are smart and are going to completely rip us off at the end of the deal |
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