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Wenger alone in theatre of absurd
Topic Started: Aug 5 2013, 04:40 AM (2,201 Views)
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dsch15
Aug 5 2013, 06:39 PM
dream_team
Aug 5 2013, 06:25 PM
dsch15
Aug 5 2013, 06:20 PM
dream_team
Aug 5 2013, 06:13 PM
cruyff_turn
Aug 5 2013, 02:27 PM
Gooner0893
Aug 5 2013, 02:19 PM
dream_team
Aug 5 2013, 02:05 PM
cruyff_turn
Aug 5 2013, 09:08 AM
I don't even know why you posted the link. You should have just gone on with another one of your patented, predictable, boring posts which misrepresent a whole number of things (i.e. comparing the Higuain/Mata situation - talk about "absurd") in order to make a point which you've made hundreds of times.

Believe us, 0893, we know where you stand.
The criticism by 0893 might be unnecessary, because these are stuff we all know. We ALL know that wenger has basically f**ked up in the transfer market for the past 8 years, although not all of us will admit it. The comparison of the Higuain and Mata situation is anything but absurd, if anything the situations are very similar, for both players we showed some interest, but refused to pay 2-5% more than what we think those players are worth at the expense of the squad, we dragged and dragged our feet until another club became interested.
The problem with Wengerites. They defend Wenger no matter what. We could have had both Mata and higuaim who would have improved Arsenal exponentially. But we don't because we are beyond cheap and would rather pursue a free transfer.
Why am I not surprised at all that you failed to address any of my points. Because you don't care to have a real conversation about this.

Here are the two HUGE differences between the Higuain (it's spelled with an n, not an m) and Mata deals.

In regards to Mata: We had no choice but to bow out, we couldn't match Chelsea's offer.

In regards to Higuain: Rather than settle for Higuain, we opted to go for a more expensive target because he is a better player.

Thus, the situations are not comparable.
What rubbish!, you clearly have short memory, Mata release clause was there for Arsenal to activate, wayy before Chelsea came in, Mata was begging for Arsenal to come get him, but we dragged, dragged and dragged our feet until the release clause expired and Chelsea couldn't get their number one target (Modric) hence they turned to juan mata pretty late.
Am I missing something? Could we have gotten Mata without Chelsea even getting to bid?

And even if so, how does that compare to the Higuain situation? It seems we valued him at a certain level and were unwilling to go any further.
DSCH if Chelsea didn't bid for mata, there's about 99% Chance that we wouldn't have signed him, as we basically refused to increase our offer for the player to match what Valencia were asking, isn't that the same with higuain, we refused to go further above a certain value.
If we didn't want to pay more for Mata and Valencia therefore refused to sell him to us, why does anyone care about Chelsea's involvement? It seems irrelevant. They simply showed up to buy something we'd already looked at and put back on the shelf as too expensive.

If that is the case, then maybe there is something to compare between the Mata and Higuain sagas. We didn't like the price tag on either. If it was not a question about agreeing to pay more in order to shut out other suitors, I wonder why several posters seem to think that others somehow scooped us on those deals.
My guess is by those several posters you mean the likes of cruyff and Santry, because so far I think they are the only ones to have claimed Chelsea "outbid" us.
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dsch15
Aug 5 2013, 07:18 PM
jays712
Aug 5 2013, 06:47 PM
The big similarity between the two non-deals is that we didn't strike when we had the chance. I guess that extra few millions that weren't spent for Mata would've put us in administration. LOL
If we missed out because we were unwilling to spend more that's a lot different than being outbid because we took too long to close a deal. I think those two things have been combined in a lot of the descriptions of the events I've read. It's clear Mata was worth the extra money. Higuain...?
Whichever way the main point 0893 is trying to pass across is that both the Higuain and Mata saga were very similar, the fact that this is true makes the abuses he got uncalled for to say the least.
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jays712
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dsch15
Aug 5 2013, 07:18 PM
jays712
Aug 5 2013, 06:47 PM
The big similarity between the two non-deals is that we didn't strike when we had the chance. I guess that extra few millions that weren't spent for Mata would've put us in administration. LOL
If we missed out because we were unwilling to spend more that's a lot different than being outbid because we took too long to close a deal. I think those two things have been combined in a lot of the descriptions of the events I've read. It's clear Mata was worth the extra money. Higuain...?
I'm so over the fucking excuses. We were outbid. We didn't bid enough. We took too long. We didn't value him that high. Another club swooped in. The goalposts were moved. We were sabotaged. I'm sure I missed a few others.

And you wonder why a large section of the supporters are extremely discontent at the moment.

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KamyFC
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santry_gooner
Aug 5 2013, 02:38 PM
KamyFC
Aug 5 2013, 10:15 AM
The response by the Moderators - Cryuff and Santry are also extremely predictable.

Cruyff absolutely dismisses 0893's post, just like the way he dismissed our pathetic performance against Galatasaray (look at the other thread)
That response is so predictable Cryuff.
A one liner dismissing and not even discussing 0893's opinion, just because u dont agree with it. Classy indeed.

Talking bout class - Le Moderator - Santry atleast expands on his never ending love for Wenger. And apparently criticism of Wenger's
methods is 'insulting'. Agains so predictable.

Grow up you two.
And atleast respect or respond to an opinion.
What qualifies as respecting your view? You mean agreeing with it, or ignoring it? I suppose I really should do the latter, then I remembered this was a message board. I know, crazy isn't it Kamleash?

0893s point got dismissed because it was open to be dismissed. Otherwise he should post it as a blog and disable comment. What he appears to want here is what Elnuk always wants - the contingent right to free speech. Say what you like but if anyone responds fly into an authoritarian rage... and you call me predictable.

As there was nothing in your last post in any way related to the topic except for this: "Santry at least expands on his never ending love for Wenger. And apparently criticism of Wenger's methods is 'insulting'." So why did I actually open up a line of criticism of him in my post? You Kamlesh are a moron. You hang out with morons and you run along the same trammeled thought lines that they do. Admit it, you didn't read the article before you posted. Even the Piz "skims" articles. That one was a 90 second investment in giving 0893 the benefit of the doubt, and turned out, yet again to be damning of his dramatic licence with logic.

Meanwhile I'm awaiting an actual response from 0893.
Santry - the name calling moderator. I shall ignore the 'moron' comment for now.
All this name calling just shows the lack of class/respect for ur friends here.
Never mind.
I will not go down to ur level.

Now 0893 proposes an interesting theory - where we would have a director who would share the responsibilities with Wenger.
Thatz an opinion on i focussed on and responded to. Not the stupid article on the Telegraph (which has poor journalism anyway)

Where as u just trashed his opinion, without even reading what he proposed and resorted to name calling & what not.

However lets not get into that.

Now Santry when Wenger says - "we will challenge with this squad"
He might fool people like you but not us. We have seen the way the team performed in the Emirates Cup and
its no where ready with the league starting in 2 weeks time.

Now we can easily get top marquee signings with wages in excess of 150,000 Pounds per week.
But we still prefer haggling and missing out on the likes of Higuain, Jovetic etc.

Despite not winning anything we could still attract quality players - we have considerable resources, CL football,
popular league, attractive city and no pressure to succeed.
It's not that players won't come, it's that we dont want to pay the money for them. Thatz the problem.

And i absolutely dont believe we can challenge with this squad. No way.

And why? Bcos Wenger is F'ing up again in the transfer dealings.
Edited by KamyFC, Aug 5 2013, 11:50 PM.
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KamyFC
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cruyff_turn
Aug 5 2013, 02:43 PM
+1

Nothing wrong with 0893 being 0893, but Kam would have us believe he shouldn't have to answer for his comments?
Cryuff - i did not answer for 0893. why would i do that?

I answered bcos u tend to dismiss any criticism of the Arsenal hierarchy in ur own 1 liner fashion instead of reading what 0893 posted and responding to it.

And dint u see the typical cynical and borish attitude in Santry's post, where he mentions that 0893's posts get traction by other 'less brightly lit bulbs' ? why would i bother if any post got traction. Thatz the stupidest thing i ever heard.
And i so i had to respond to Santry too and i wont take his borish attitude lying down. I will give it back to him in my own way.
Edited by KamyFC, Aug 6 2013, 12:08 AM.
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billabog5
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cruyff_turn
Aug 5 2013, 03:00 PM
billabog5
Aug 5 2013, 02:58 PM
Whoa there boys, don't let your emotions override common sense

Arsenal have the most expensive prices in the prem, the 2nd largest stadium & are only behind Utd & possibly Liverpool in terms of Global appeal & merchandise sales

By all means say Arsenal CHOSE not to spend a lot of money on players, but don't try the COULDN'T AFFORD to spend money crappola. How much did Arsenal receive for the sales of Cesc, nasri, Adebayor, Clichy, RVP, Song etc. ? How much of that was re-invested ? Utd still manage to compete in the market despite the supposedly crippling debt of the Glazers, so Arsenal could, if they chose , buy top quality players. The problem is Wenger is a stubborn cheapskate & he would rather Arsenal fans miss out on top players than compromise his principles .
The vast majority of sales you mention there were keeping Arsenal's heads above water, but they weren't making the club rich, according to financial statements.
"keeping Arsenal's head above water"

LOL , come on cruyyf, Arsenal chose a different path, which is their perogative, but don't try to convince me or anybody else here that had they not sold all those top players they would have been in severe financial difficulty.
It was pure choice, not necessity that dictated Wenger[or the board] not signing Mata, Sahin, Higuain, & any other of a myriad of names who he "tracked"
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santry_gooner
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KamyFC
Aug 5 2013, 11:38 PM
santry_gooner
Aug 5 2013, 02:38 PM
KamyFC
Aug 5 2013, 10:15 AM
The response by the Moderators - Cryuff and Santry are also extremely predictable.

Cruyff absolutely dismisses 0893's post, just like the way he dismissed our pathetic performance against Galatasaray (look at the other thread)
That response is so predictable Cryuff.
A one liner dismissing and not even discussing 0893's opinion, just because u dont agree with it. Classy indeed.

Talking bout class - Le Moderator - Santry atleast expands on his never ending love for Wenger. And apparently criticism of Wenger's
methods is 'insulting'. Agains so predictable.

Grow up you two.
And atleast respect or respond to an opinion.
What qualifies as respecting your view? You mean agreeing with it, or ignoring it? I suppose I really should do the latter, then I remembered this was a message board. I know, crazy isn't it Kamleash?

0893s point got dismissed because it was open to be dismissed. Otherwise he should post it as a blog and disable comment. What he appears to want here is what Elnuk always wants - the contingent right to free speech. Say what you like but if anyone responds fly into an authoritarian rage... and you call me predictable.

As there was nothing in your last post in any way related to the topic except for this: "Santry at least expands on his never ending love for Wenger. And apparently criticism of Wenger's methods is 'insulting'." So why did I actually open up a line of criticism of him in my post? You Kamlesh are a moron. You hang out with morons and you run along the same trammeled thought lines that they do. Admit it, you didn't read the article before you posted. Even the Piz "skims" articles. That one was a 90 second investment in giving 0893 the benefit of the doubt, and turned out, yet again to be damning of his dramatic licence with logic.

Meanwhile I'm awaiting an actual response from 0893.
Santry - the name calling moderator. I shall ignore the 'moron' comment for now.
All this name calling just shows the lack of class/respect for ur friends here.
Never mind.
I will not go down to ur level.

Now 0893 proposes an interesting theory - where we would have a director who would share the responsibilities with Wenger.
Thatz an opinion on i focussed on and responded to. Not the stupid article on the Telegraph (which has poor journalism anyway)

Where as u just trashed his opinion, without even reading what he proposed and resorted to name calling & what not.

However lets not get into that.

Now Santry when Wenger says - "we will challenge with this squad"
He might fool people like you but not us. We have seen the way the team performed in the Emirates Cup and
its no where ready with the league starting in 2 weeks time.

Now we can easily get top marquee signings with wages in excess of 150,000 Pounds per week.
But we still prefer haggling and missing out on the likes of Higuain, Jovetic etc.

Despite not winning anything we could still attract quality players - we have considerable resources, CL football,
popular league, attractive city and no pressure to succeed.
It's not that players won't come, it's that we dont want to pay the money for them. Thatz the problem.

And i absolutely dont believe we can challenge with this squad. No way.

And why? Bcos Wenger is F'ing up again in the transfer dealings.
Don't drop the hypocritical name calling card on me. You already struck thrice before you got "Morooned" on the rock of ignorance and summary thought. Lets bullet point that for you since you appear to have a really disjointed reading, writing and thought process:
- Le Moderator
- Predictable
- Boor, or Borish
- the implication that myself and Cruyff need to 'grow up'

And you got called 'moron' and you cannot stoop to my level. Heaven forbid Kamleash... Heaven forbid.

Now in order of your latest offering.

So like,... You focused only on 0893s opinion, failed to read the attached link which inspired him, failed to notice the chasm of mismatch and clapped him on the back for a very fine post indeed. Oh ok. I see how you might feel it was unjust for you to be accused of giving him MINDLESS traction. Now of course you label the article 'stupid'. Mind you we all feel relieved that you finally read it.

As regards the rest of the rubbish you posted. Wenger is saying we will challenge with this squad, and he's right. The fact that he also says we will try very hard to get extra players to strengthen it is said immediately afterwards, which allows those of use with brains to realise what in fact he is saying. I have no issue with other people misinterpreting that, but when I see dangerous levels of ignorant groupthink I always feel the urge to intervene.
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billabog5
Aug 6 2013, 01:22 AM
cruyff_turn
Aug 5 2013, 03:00 PM
billabog5
Aug 5 2013, 02:58 PM
Whoa there boys, don't let your emotions override common sense

Arsenal have the most expensive prices in the prem, the 2nd largest stadium & are only behind Utd & possibly Liverpool in terms of Global appeal & merchandise sales

By all means say Arsenal CHOSE not to spend a lot of money on players, but don't try the COULDN'T AFFORD to spend money crappola. How much did Arsenal receive for the sales of Cesc, nasri, Adebayor, Clichy, RVP, Song etc. ? How much of that was re-invested ? Utd still manage to compete in the market despite the supposedly crippling debt of the Glazers, so Arsenal could, if they chose , buy top quality players. The problem is Wenger is a stubborn cheapskate & he would rather Arsenal fans miss out on top players than compromise his principles .
The vast majority of sales you mention there were keeping Arsenal's heads above water, but they weren't making the club rich, according to financial statements.
"keeping Arsenal's head above water"

LOL , come on cruyyf, Arsenal chose a different path, which is their perogative, but don't try to convince me or anybody else here that had they not sold all those top players they would have been in severe financial difficulty.
It was pure choice, not necessity that dictated Wenger[or the board] not signing Mata, Sahin, Higuain, & any other of a myriad of names who he "tracked"
Exactly as if the board told Wenger, you must sell a player which would fetch good money by all means every summer, otherwise our account will go red..
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rw_mlite2
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Wow. A lot of things wrong in this thread by both sides of the argument.
1) we didn't get outbid by Chelsea for Mata. We tried to get him for less than his release clause. Spurs (supposedly) tried to do the same. We let the clause expire at the end of July without agreeing a fee. Chelsea came in later (after missing out on other targets) and paid more than the clause.
2) It's not the same as the Higuain situation, but it's also not dissimilar. Once again the club's negotiating techniques drug everything out and the player eventually went to another club who was willing to pay what the market dictated (which was likely more than Wenger (or whoever) deemed the player was worth). However, the difference lies in that in the case of Higuain, I truly believe part of the reason we eventually pulled out was to go after a player who is deemed a better fit (ignoring the personal issues...obviously). The problem being, Arsenal's negotiators are showing their lack of experience/guile/whatever when dealing with big boy negotiations.
3) It's pretty well established that the club has had to sell a player or two each summer to finish in the black. I (and others) have posted the proof multiple times over. Now, that we've made a profit each year is where the problem lies. You have to sell players? Fine (though it shows a terrible lack of foresight from those involved in the stadium build as well as those involved in brokering the deals with Emirates and Nike (and whatever secondary sponsors were out there)). But at least reinvest the full amount. Cut rate deals/players are the reason we're where we're at now. Also, there's nothing wrong with taking on a bit of debt to try and improve. Of course it's easy to say as I'm not responsible for running the business.
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jays712
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rw_mlite2
Aug 6 2013, 06:30 AM
Wow. A lot of things wrong in this thread by both sides of the argument.
1) we didn't get outbid by Chelsea for Mata. We tried to get him for less than his release clause. Spurs (supposedly) tried to do the same. We let the clause expire at the end of July without agreeing a fee. Chelsea came in later (after missing out on other targets) and paid more than the clause.
2) It's not the same as the Higuain situation, but it's also not dissimilar. Once again the club's negotiating techniques drug everything out and the player eventually went to another club who was willing to pay what the market dictated (which was likely more than Wenger (or whoever) deemed the player was worth). However, the difference lies in that in the case of Higuain, I truly believe part of the reason we eventually pulled out was to go after a player who is deemed a better fit (ignoring the personal issues...obviously). The problem being, Arsenal's negotiators are showing their lack of experience/guile/whatever when dealing with big boy negotiations.
3) It's pretty well established that the club has had to sell a player or two each summer to finish in the black. I (and others) have posted the proof multiple times over. Now, that we've made a profit each year is where the problem lies. You have to sell players? Fine (though it shows a terrible lack of foresight from those involved in the stadium build as well as those involved in brokering the deals with Emirates and Nike (and whatever secondary sponsors were out there)). But at least reinvest the full amount. Cut rate deals/players are the reason we're where we're at now. Also, there's nothing wrong with taking on a bit of debt to try and improve. Of course it's easy to say as I'm not responsible for running the business.
God forbid we go in the red a little bit. Those share prices might drop a dollar or two and they couldn't get every last dollar out of it when they sold their shares to Kroenke.
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