|
What was the USMNT thinking?
|
|
Topic Started: Oct 16 2013, 05:21 AM (825 Views)
|
|
rw_mlite2
|
Oct 18 2013, 01:18 PM
Post #51
|
|
- Posts:
- 4,428
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- Jul 4, 2013
|
- Joe Bobs Fine Foods
- Oct 17 2013, 10:24 PM
- rw_mlite2
- Oct 17 2013, 08:39 PM
Two things first: 1) Fuck Mexico*. No, seriously. Mexican soccer can fuck itself. Diving, cheating, dirty thugs. And their fans. Despicable, urine/bottle/crack throwing donkeys that they are. 2) I really feel badly for the Panamanians. Players and fans alike.
That said, CONCACAF needs Mexico in the WC. Realistically, they're the only other team (besides the USA) that has a chance to get out of the group. Plus, the ramifications down the road for Mexico are huge (financial, competitive, etc). As appealing as it sounds to be able to kick them around for the next 'x' years, it's bad for the US and bad for the federation if there is only one decent team in the region.
*Just anything to do with the Mexican national team.
Well, they may be Despicable, urine/bottle/crack throwing donkeys, but at least they don't stab each other after matches like American fans. When did that happen?
|
|
|
| |
|
rw_mlite2
|
Oct 18 2013, 01:31 PM
Post #52
|
|
- Posts:
- 4,428
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- Jul 4, 2013
|
- dsch15
- Oct 18 2013, 09:51 AM
- Joe Bobs Fine Foods
- Oct 17 2013, 10:24 PM
- rw_mlite2
- Oct 17 2013, 08:39 PM
Two things first: 1) Fuck Mexico*. No, seriously. Mexican soccer can fuck itself. Diving, cheating, dirty thugs. And their fans. Despicable, urine/bottle/crack throwing donkeys that they are. 2) I really feel badly for the Panamanians. Players and fans alike.
That said, CONCACAF needs Mexico in the WC. Realistically, they're the only other team (besides the USA) that has a chance to get out of the group. Plus, the ramifications down the road for Mexico are huge (financial, competitive, etc). As appealing as it sounds to be able to kick them around for the next 'x' years, it's bad for the US and bad for the federation if there is only one decent team in the region.
*Just anything to do with the Mexican national team.
Well, they may be Despicable, urine/bottle/crack throwing donkeys, but at least they don't stab each other after matches like American fans.
From time to time people on here request that others stop using certain phrases or language, or ask that something be left off limits as the subject of a joke. I'm not going to do that per se, but I would like to know when people are going to stop equating a team, a city, a region or a nation with the things done by their worst-behaved fans. I'm assuming this is actually meant more for me than jays. Is it my use of the term "donkeys"? I assure you I meant nothing racist about it, if that's what this is about. Substitute "ingrates" for "donkeys" if it makes you feel better. As for "worst-behaved" fans...how many hundreds, even thousands does it take before it turns from the small minority into something bigger? Where's this subjective line? I'm sorry, but the way visiting fans, ESPECIALLY Americans are treated at the Azteca isn't based on what a very few of the "worst-behaved" fans are doing. Sure, it may not be the majority from a percentage standpoint, but it's enough to warrant a reputation.
|
|
|
| |
|
dsch15
|
Oct 18 2013, 04:39 PM
Post #53
|
|
- Posts:
- 9,532
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #15
- Joined:
- Jul 5, 2013
|
- rw_mlite2
- Oct 18 2013, 01:31 PM
- dsch15
- Oct 18 2013, 09:51 AM
- Joe Bobs Fine Foods
- Oct 17 2013, 10:24 PM
- rw_mlite2
- Oct 17 2013, 08:39 PM
Two things first: 1) Fuck Mexico*. No, seriously. Mexican soccer can fuck itself. Diving, cheating, dirty thugs. And their fans. Despicable, urine/bottle/crack throwing donkeys that they are. 2) I really feel badly for the Panamanians. Players and fans alike.
That said, CONCACAF needs Mexico in the WC. Realistically, they're the only other team (besides the USA) that has a chance to get out of the group. Plus, the ramifications down the road for Mexico are huge (financial, competitive, etc). As appealing as it sounds to be able to kick them around for the next 'x' years, it's bad for the US and bad for the federation if there is only one decent team in the region.
*Just anything to do with the Mexican national team.
Well, they may be Despicable, urine/bottle/crack throwing donkeys, but at least they don't stab each other after matches like American fans.
From time to time people on here request that others stop using certain phrases or language, or ask that something be left off limits as the subject of a joke. I'm not going to do that per se, but I would like to know when people are going to stop equating a team, a city, a region or a nation with the things done by their worst-behaved fans.
I'm assuming this is actually meant more for me than jays. Is it my use of the term "donkeys"? I assure you I meant nothing racist about it, if that's what this is about. Substitute "ingrates" for "donkeys" if it makes you feel better. As for "worst-behaved" fans...how many hundreds, even thousands does it take before it turns from the small minority into something bigger? Where's this subjective line? I'm sorry, but the way visiting fans, ESPECIALLY Americans are treated at the Azteca isn't based on what a very few of the "worst-behaved" fans are doing. Sure, it may not be the majority from a percentage standpoint, but it's enough to warrant a reputation. My comment was directed at no one in particular, but at the common practice of targeting whole populations with insults that should be reserved for the minority that have earned them. It's a statistical certainty that any significant number of humans is going to contain assholes. It's thoughtless and lazy to hold the whole group to account for their misdeeds.
Sporting events may engender the sort of group- or mob-think that gives unsavory behavior a pass (and thereby tacitly encourages it, I suppose), but I still bristle at comments that start with "Mexicans are..." or "Americans think...".
As if 100s of millions of people are all going to act the same way because of geography.
|
|
|
| |
|
rw_mlite2
|
Oct 18 2013, 05:02 PM
Post #54
|
|
- Posts:
- 4,428
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- Jul 4, 2013
|
- dsch15
- Oct 18 2013, 04:39 PM
- rw_mlite2
- Oct 18 2013, 01:31 PM
- dsch15
- Oct 18 2013, 09:51 AM
- Joe Bobs Fine Foods
- Oct 17 2013, 10:24 PM
- rw_mlite2
- Oct 17 2013, 08:39 PM
Two things first: 1) Fuck Mexico*. No, seriously. Mexican soccer can fuck itself. Diving, cheating, dirty thugs. And their fans. Despicable, urine/bottle/crack throwing donkeys that they are. 2) I really feel badly for the Panamanians. Players and fans alike.
That said, CONCACAF needs Mexico in the WC. Realistically, they're the only other team (besides the USA) that has a chance to get out of the group. Plus, the ramifications down the road for Mexico are huge (financial, competitive, etc). As appealing as it sounds to be able to kick them around for the next 'x' years, it's bad for the US and bad for the federation if there is only one decent team in the region.
*Just anything to do with the Mexican national team.
Well, they may be Despicable, urine/bottle/crack throwing donkeys, but at least they don't stab each other after matches like American fans.
From time to time people on here request that others stop using certain phrases or language, or ask that something be left off limits as the subject of a joke. I'm not going to do that per se, but I would like to know when people are going to stop equating a team, a city, a region or a nation with the things done by their worst-behaved fans.
I'm assuming this is actually meant more for me than jays. Is it my use of the term "donkeys"? I assure you I meant nothing racist about it, if that's what this is about. Substitute "ingrates" for "donkeys" if it makes you feel better. As for "worst-behaved" fans...how many hundreds, even thousands does it take before it turns from the small minority into something bigger? Where's this subjective line? I'm sorry, but the way visiting fans, ESPECIALLY Americans are treated at the Azteca isn't based on what a very few of the "worst-behaved" fans are doing. Sure, it may not be the majority from a percentage standpoint, but it's enough to warrant a reputation.
My comment was directed at no one in particular, but at the common practice of targeting whole populations with insults that should be reserved for the minority that have earned them. It's a statistical certainty that any significant number of humans is going to contain assholes. It's thoughtless and lazy to hold the whole group to account for their misdeeds. Sporting events may engender the sort of group- or mob-think that gives unsavory behavior a pass (and thereby tacitly encourages it, I suppose), but I still bristle at comments that start with "Mexicans are..." or "Americans think...". As if 100s of millions of people are all going to act the same way because of geography. Well, it's a good thing that I put the star disclaimer in my initial post then.
You still didn't address the crux of my argument, though (though you alluded to it with "mob mentality"): how many fans (or percentage of) does it take before it's an actual issue? In a stadium the size of the Azteca (let's call it 100,000 capacity), is it a few hundred fans? A few thousand? 50,001? The full 100,000? Fanbases earn reputations off of, what numbers would say, is a small percentage. Are all those reputations invalid? I'm actually curious what your thoughts are.
|
|
|
| |
|
dsch15
|
Oct 18 2013, 05:13 PM
Post #55
|
|
- Posts:
- 9,532
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #15
- Joined:
- Jul 5, 2013
|
"You still didn't address the crux of my argument, though (though you alluded to it with "mob mentality"): how many fans (or percentage of) does it take before it's an actual issue? In a stadium the size of the Azteca (let's call it 100,000 capacity), is it a few hundred fans? A few thousand? 50,001? The full 100,000? Fanbases earn reputations off of, what numbers would say, is a small percentage. Are all those reputations invalid? I'm actually curious what your thoughts are."
Here's the question I really want to answer, and which I feel best gets at what I'm trying to say: How many fans (or percentage of) does it take before you get to assume everyone in the stadium is fundamentally the same as one another in some way? My answer would "be all of them". 100%. Fan bases do not earn reputations off of small percentages - they are given reputations by people for whom it is easier to think of others as members of some group than it is to treat them as individuals.
Don't get me wrong, I love making fun of "Philadelphia fans" (I am one in Football and Ice Hockey) as a group, but there's a difference between doing so jokingly and doing so with intent to malign.
Let me take one more shot at this: If you tell me you are French, what do I know about you? You were either born in France, or have been granted French citizenship, or you are of French descent. I don't know if you're a great host or rude to foreigners. I don't know if you like frog legs or think they're disgusting. I don't know if you think Jerry Lewis is funny or just an idiot. In other words, your membership of some "group" doesn't give me much information at all. Of course, I could make all sorts of assumptions about you, but that's all they'd be, and more fool me if they were wrong.
Just like if you told me you were a fan of the Mexican national team.
Edited by dsch15, Oct 18 2013, 05:29 PM.
|
|
|
| |
|
rw_mlite2
|
Oct 18 2013, 05:50 PM
Post #56
|
|
- Posts:
- 4,428
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- Jul 4, 2013
|
- dsch15
- Oct 18 2013, 05:13 PM
"You still didn't address the crux of my argument, though (though you alluded to it with "mob mentality"): how many fans (or percentage of) does it take before it's an actual issue? In a stadium the size of the Azteca (let's call it 100,000 capacity), is it a few hundred fans? A few thousand? 50,001? The full 100,000? Fanbases earn reputations off of, what numbers would say, is a small percentage. Are all those reputations invalid? I'm actually curious what your thoughts are."
Here's the question I really want to answer, and which I feel best gets at what I'm trying to say: How many fans (or percentage of) does it take before you get to assume everyone in the stadium is fundamentally the same as one another in some way? My answer would "be all of them". 100%. Fan bases do not earn reputations off of small percentages - they are given reputations by people for whom it is easier to think of others as members of some group than it is to treat them as individuals.
Don't get me wrong, I love making fun of "Philadelphia fans" (I am one in Football and Ice Hockey) as a group, but there's a difference between doing so jokingly and doing so with intent to malign.
Let me take one more shot at this: If you tell me you are French, what do I know about you? You were either born in France, or have been granted French citizenship, or you are of French descent. I don't know if you're a great host or rude to foreigners. I don't know if you like frog legs or think they're disgusting. I don't know if you think Jerry Lewis is funny or just an idiot. In other words, your membership of some "group" doesn't give me much information at all. Of course, I could make all sorts of assumptions about you, but that's all they'd be, and more fool me if they were wrong.
Just like if you told me you were a fan of the Mexican national team. Well, from an analytical point of view, you're 100% correct. However, I still feel there are some subtle differences to what I'm describing compared to how you've defined your opinion. I'm looking at a very distinct group here. Not Mexicans, not Mexican football fans, but the higher than normal (speculation, admittedly) percentage of Mexican football fans in the Azteca when the US plays there that rain down abuse, liquids, and missiles on US fans and players. To me, it's more than mob mentality. It's surely not 100% of the fans, but it's something ingrained within the football culture in that scenario that makes it ok in the eyes of so many.
|
|
|
| |
|
jays712
|
Oct 19 2013, 07:25 AM
Post #57
|
|
- Posts:
- 7,533
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #25
- Joined:
- Jul 10, 2013
|
Look who agrees with me that Mexico wouldn't have done the same thing we did to save their asses.
http://m.espn.go.com/soccer/story?storyId=1587302§ion=soccernetfrontpage-us
|
|
|
| |
|
JustOneDennisBergkamp
|
Oct 19 2013, 11:33 AM
Post #58
|
|
JODB
- Posts:
- 13,969
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #5
- Joined:
- Jul 3, 2013
|
- jays712
- Oct 19 2013, 07:25 AM
Your speculation as to what Mexico may have done in a reverse role is that of a USA fanatic. That opinion expressed by a player like Donovan though should be taken as an insult by the Mexican side.
That's an outlandish thing for a player to say, and if the roles were reversed, we'd all agree that it was.
|
|
|
| |
|
jays712
|
Oct 19 2013, 11:38 AM
Post #59
|
|
- Posts:
- 7,533
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #25
- Joined:
- Jul 10, 2013
|
- JustOneDennisBergkamp
- Oct 19 2013, 11:33 AM
- jays712
- Oct 19 2013, 07:25 AM
Your speculation as to what Mexico may have done in a reverse role is that of a USA fanatic. That opinion expressed by a player like Donovan though should be taken as an insult by the Mexican side. That's an outlandish thing for a player to say, and if the roles were reversed, we'd all agree that it was. Just fanning the flames as a certified fanatic JODB. That's all. Come join the dark side. It's way more fun over here.
|
|
|
| |
|
JustOneDennisBergkamp
|
Oct 19 2013, 11:40 AM
Post #60
|
|
JODB
- Posts:
- 13,969
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #5
- Joined:
- Jul 3, 2013
|
- jays712
- Oct 19 2013, 11:38 AM
- JustOneDennisBergkamp
- Oct 19 2013, 11:33 AM
- jays712
- Oct 19 2013, 07:25 AM
Your speculation as to what Mexico may have done in a reverse role is that of a USA fanatic. That opinion expressed by a player like Donovan though should be taken as an insult by the Mexican side. That's an outlandish thing for a player to say, and if the roles were reversed, we'd all agree that it was.
Just fanning the flames as a certified fanatic JODB. That's all. Come join the dark side. It's way more fun over here. I enjoy a good bonfire and a few twelve packs as much as anyone, but I'll be skipping this party my friend.
|
|
|
| |
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
|