| Arsenal vs Borussia Dortmund | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 22 2013, 10:10 AM (3,332 Views) | |
| cruyff_turn | Oct 23 2013, 10:45 AM Post #281 |
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BTW, saw a breakdown of Lewandowski's goal. Ozil, Sagna, and Rosicky failed to track his run, which started deep inside his own half. Sagna was the highest up the pitch at the time of loss of possession. Michael Cox breaks the fullback battle down here: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/10/23/arsenal-1-2-dortmund-narrow-midfield-encourages-both-sets-of-full-backs-forward/ |
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| KamyFC | Oct 23 2013, 11:05 AM Post #282 |
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Fascinating analysis there by Cox. Another interesting write up on Dortmund's manic pressing style called - "gegenpressing" http://footballspeak.com/post/2013/05/16/The-German-Football.aspx gegenpressing The best moment to win the ball is immediately after your team just lost it. The opponent is still looking for orientation where to pass the ball." Once Dortmund have regained possession, the transition from defence to attack is organised and, potentially, explosive. Gegenpressing does not mean playing the same way all the time. Dortmund can play a variety of styles and formations, all underpinned by the gegenpressing approach. |
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| supercollider7 | Oct 23 2013, 12:28 PM Post #283 |
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Well all teams use gegenpressing. It's not a novel concept. It's all about controlling space. Usually when an attack breaks down, you have now too many players committed up the pitch with a lot of space behind them to exploit. How do you control that? 1) the defensive line pushes up, to take advantage of the offside law. 2) the attacking players who are caught up apply pressure on the ball to force rushed clearances and passes. So basically you have the whole team moving forward to squeeze space. And if you win the ball during this phase, it works out really well because you already have all of your attacking players up the pitch, and you're winning the ball close to the opposition goal. The defensive team is also caught out of position. An example of this is what we just saw for Dortmund's first goal. They dispossessed Ramsey right on the edge of the box and created a great chance. But if you don't win the ball during that phase, you need to then retreat. A good team will be able to play around your pressing at least some of the time, so you need to be prepared to run back. In this phase, the team tries to run back to squeeze space behind them instead of ahead of them. So the defensive line instead of pushing up now needs to drop back and wait for the midfielders to recover. When they do you get into a solid defensive formation and don't let the opposition through. Marcelo Bielsa had a "6 second rule." If the team didn't win the ball within 6 seconds of pressing they would drop back in a defensive shape. This is the mistake we made against Spurs last season in the 2-1 loss. Wenger said after the game that we tried to play offside when we shouldn't have. For the first goal, Spurs had played around our pressure, and Siggurdson found himself in space in midfield. In this case the defenders should have drop back, tracked the runs ahead of him, and waited for the midfield to recover. At worst allow him a shot from distance from which he is less likely to score. Instead Vermaelen decided to step up to Siggurdson which allowed Bale to run in free behind him. For Dortmund's second yesterday, we did well not to play offside in that situation. There was no pressure on the ball so the defenders tracked the runs and gave the midfielders time to recover. Unfortunately we didn't recover quickly enough or well enough and weren't able to control the space in front of our goal. What's unique about Dortmund's approach is how well they win the ball back and counterattack. We also pressure the ball but we are far more selective in when we do it. And against the big teams we're tending to defend pretty deep. Which is not a bad thing. It's not always beneficial to win the ball back quickly. Sometimes drawing teams out and winning the ball deep can be more effective. For Dortmund's second goal they won it back very deep but broke really well. Some teams, who rely on pace, like to actually not win the ball too quickly, so they tend not to pressure the ball at all and just collapse back into their half. |
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| chillyheat | Oct 23 2013, 01:09 PM Post #284 |
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totally agree with 0893 and d administrator views. german side is quality. we have quality manager who got outcoached by his better. aint blowing my top just yet, but dis defeat is on wenger for not giving them nuff respect nor reacting 2 some of our key players being below par yet we bombing forward in droves while losing shape against quality opposition is amaturish at dis level. uncomprimising confidence considering one or two players were playing outta position. parking d bus and sucker punching them woulda given us sweet point or all 3 but wenger knows best. anyways just hoping he learns. like rw says, lets hope defeat counts for nothing as we still qualify. |
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| Deleted User | Oct 23 2013, 01:46 PM Post #285 |
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NO SIR, I'll say man for man we have a slightly better team(starting 11), we have a much better squad, it's just that klopp MAY just be smarter than Wenger. |
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| santry_gooner | Oct 23 2013, 03:38 PM Post #286 |
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I'm willing to bet hard currency that if we played for a draw the failure to get all three points would also be "on Wenger". This is what is wisdom in hindsight from the regal comfort of the armchair. |
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| JustOneDennisBergkamp | Oct 23 2013, 03:45 PM Post #287 |
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Let me get this straight. Are you saying that the same posters who have criticized Wenger for not playing for the draw might have criticized him for not chasing all three points had he actually done so? Is hatred of Le Boss really that blind around here? If so, sounds about right to me. Put me down for a tenner. Edited by JustOneDennisBergkamp, Oct 23 2013, 03:45 PM.
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| cruyff_turn | Oct 23 2013, 07:20 PM Post #288 |
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Arsene Wenger gives his players freedom to think for themselves. It comes off most of the time and makes the team better for it but sometimes it doesn't. I think you are guilty of absolving too much blame from the players. It's ok to bomb forward as long as everyone is switched on defensively. That has been the case all season (and all of 2013 really) but the players switched off yesterday and were punished. It's not surprising to hear you criticize him for the result yesterday but you are the first I've heard. He was clearly pissed at our naivete in his post-match comments: "We put ourselves on the back foot with the first goal and were naive for the second," Wenger said. Wenger said: "Look at how many saves our goalkeeper has had to make and we have conceded two goals." "We can only look at ourselves as not being mature enough in those situations. If you can't win the game, don't lose it." Edited by cruyff_turn, Oct 23 2013, 07:21 PM.
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| supercollider7 | Oct 23 2013, 09:19 PM Post #289 |
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Hahaha what? So the worse manager has somehow put together a better team which hasn't been performing as well as the worse team. Got it. Klopp has done an amazing job and Dortmund are a really good team. One of the best in the world. They were CL finalists and beat Bayern to 2 BL titles recently. Not a joke. We may be doing well right now but we haven't done anything to prove we're as good or even better than this team. And the team we're playing right now is just so slow and unbalanced because of the lack of wingers. I'm sure we'll improve though. But yeah, it was a great game between two great teams. Klopp may even be the "smarter" manager but the fact that you're comparing Wenger to the best shows how much you rate the old geezer. It's like your Schweinsteiger and Xavi are better than Arteta comments. |
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| KamyFC | Oct 23 2013, 11:42 PM Post #290 |
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Nice Analysis. Xidane. Mourinho's Madrid used high speed pressing to counter the tiki-taka of Barca - Especially in the latter years of Mourinho's reign. Well even Barca used high speed pressing in the Guardiola years. I can never forget the half at the Emirates, where Almunia saved our a$$es. We just could not keep the ball due to the Barca pressing. So pressing has been used very effectively in Europe. But Dortmund seems to have taken pressing to a different level. Marcelo Bielsa had a "6 second rule." . Do you think, Dortmund applies this rule? I dont think so, they are just at it hounding the opposition into giving the ball away. The unique thing, about Dortmund, as you said is bout the ultra high speed transition - From winning the ball back to reaching the opposition half. The cool thing to notice is that lots of mid table EPL teams are using awesome pressing tactics in the league. Have u watched Southhampton? They have been a revelation. Mouricho Pochetino has bought those tactics from Spain and really gave Manchester United a pressing lesson last week. Even Norwich and Aston Villa use it to an extent nowdays. I have watched a lot of Dortmund games and the gegenpressing game is tiring and needs intense concentration and generally they always give u a chance if u r clever and patient especially in the second half. For that reason alone, i prefer the Tiki-Taka (when executed to perfection) over this. With Tiki-Taka (when executed to perfection), u r always in control. That's debatable anyway. Edited by KamyFC, Oct 23 2013, 11:45 PM.
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