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Topic Started: Mar 16 2012, 03:19 PM (23,626 Views)
Tommyb

sn00zie
Jan 6 2013, 06:11 PM
I don't think we'll ever run out of questions, and im not even sure our pea brains will even find an answer.

maybe god isn't a "thing" maybe its just the rules to everything..... IDK, the more we learn the more we don't understand and the deeper we get werider it gets.

Im done worrying about it hahaah
haha yeah, It's insane....I'm convinced that even if "God" itself came down and gave a powerpoint presentation on what "it" is all about, we wouldn't understand.

One of my professors put it in perspective for me. He used this analogy, which i think is pretty much how it is. He said to look at a dog, you can teach a dog commands based on language. He knows what sit, speak, shake, roll over, come, stay, ect means. He understands that language exists, his brain can understand that there are things of meaning, in which he cannot yet understand. Yet you cant teach that dog algebra, because it's brain simply lacks the cognitive power to understand it. I think humans are the same way with the universe. I think we are a very, very arrogant species and we simply are just incapable of understanding "it"
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Tommyb

sn00zie
Jan 6 2013, 06:14 PM
Florida population.... - 2

You moving to Chitown?
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ilivas

Tommyb
Jan 7 2013, 02:15 AM
ilivas
Jan 4 2013, 03:02 PM
I think you should have the right to participate in the pledge of allegiance in school or not, it's your choice. I think you should also have the option to have a prayer, or not in school, at student's disgression.

I'm a firm believer of separation of church and state.

Btw.... talk about dumping on religious freedom. I can't believe the libs are getting away with this hobby lobby crap.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/04/hobby-lobby-risks-fines-to-defy-obamacare.html
IMO, this has nothing to do with religious freedom. This is a public business, not a religious organization. The only reason this has gotten so out of hand is because of the whole abortion thing, which I refuse to debate online because A.) nobody will change their mind on it, and B.) I dont care haha.

But anyway, this is not a religious organization, this is a business. THe only reason this business has any religious ties at all, is because the owners happen to be evangelicals. Do you really expect the supreme court to set a precedent that a public business can be exempt from federal law because of the owners religious beliefs? That's a modern day Pandoras box.
Forcing someone to do something which is against someone's religion isn't a violation of religious freedom?
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Tommyb

For a public business? of course not. Do you think Hobby Lobby, Best Buy, Wal Mart, ect should be able to deny people employment based on the applicants religion? Hobby Lobby isn't a religious organization. They have to abide by the same rules as every other company in America. This isn't about what side of abortion your on, this is about public businesses abiding by Federal Law, regardless of what the issue is. Hobby Lobby cannot be exempt just because they really really really really really really really don't like a law.

Do you think a company should be exempt from all healthcare liability just because the owner claims to be Christian Science and doesn't believe in healthcare?
Edited by Tommyb, Jan 7 2013, 02:50 AM.
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ilivas

Tommyb
Jan 7 2013, 02:45 AM
For a public business? of course not. Do you think Hobby Lobby, Best Buy, Wal Mart, ect should be able to deny people employment based on the applicants religion? Hobby Lobby isn't a religious organization. They have to abide by the same rules as every other company in America. This isn't about what side of abortion your on, this is about public businesses abiding by Federal Law, regardless of what the issue is. Hobby Lobby cannot be exempt just because they really really really really really really really don't like a law.

Do you think a company should be exempt from all healthcare liability just because the owner claims to be Christian Science and doesn't believe in healthcare?
They don't want to deny standard healthcare (even though the healthcare act is complete bullshit in the first place), they just don't want to be forced to provide means of abortion pills because it is against their religion. They agreed to all terms except the ones that violate their religious beliefs.

I don't think hobby lobby should be exempt from fed law, however this shouldn't be a federal law to begin with because it is in violation of religious freedom.

If you're a Buddhist pacifist who hates violence and all tools of destruction, I don't think you should make them hand out weapons to employees.

That's the absolute liberal crap I'm talking about though, the government should have no right to dictate how a person runs one own business. It's just one more step towards Socialism.

I understand that it is the law, and people should follow the law, but the fact that something so ridiculous as this is a law is what pisses me off about it.
Edited by ilivas, Jan 7 2013, 03:36 AM.
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Tommyb

Whether or not it's a bullshit law is completely irrelevant. The fact is, it is a law and Hobby Lobby should have to follow it regardless of their religious beliefs. Like I said, they aren't a church, private Christian University, or anything like that. They are a public business that has absolutely no religious ties other than the owners own personal beliefs. Call it socialism, liberal crap, or whatever you want, but there's absolutely no way we can allow businesses like this to find themselves exempt from federal law based on the owners personal religious beliefs. Allowing this to pass through would open up a door for a shit load of other companies to take complete advantage of our legal system through religious loopholes. Healthcare obligations, tax deductions, and all sorts of discrimination would in a sense be legal if we could allow CEO's to operate based on their religious beliefs.
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ilivas

Tommyb
Jan 7 2013, 09:44 AM
Whether or not it's a bullshit law is completely irrelevant. The fact is, it is a law and Hobby Lobby should have to follow it regardless of their religious beliefs. Like I said, they aren't a church, private Christian University, or anything like that. They are a public business that has absolutely no religious ties other than the owners own personal beliefs. Call it socialism, liberal crap, or whatever you want, but there's absolutely no way we can allow businesses like this to find themselves exempt from federal law based on the owners personal religious beliefs. Allowing this to pass through would open up a door for a shit load of other companies to take complete advantage of our legal system through religious loopholes. Healthcare obligations, tax deductions, and all sorts of discrimination would in a sense be legal if we could allow CEO's to operate based on their religious beliefs.
Whether I'd a bullshit law is completely relevant in this case. It's a law that infringes on one's personal religion. Just because it is law does not make it right. Stripping people's rights away doesn't make it right. Passing laws to ban guns is wrong, and and unconstitutional. This country is turning into a socialist shithole fast where the government wants complete control, and they're doing it one bullshit law or bill at a time. The economy, and government is no longer ran by the people for the people. The founding fathers of our country would never have this. When is it going to end? How much control of every aspect of a citizen's lives should the government have? How many freedoms and liberties are you willing to give up for the illusion of stability, and safety while being totally dependent on the federal government?

Your argument is we should follow the law no matter what the law is? I'm saying that laws that infringe on our freedoms as Americans should not exist. Where do you draw the line? Will you follow every law the fed establish whether you believe in them or not?
Edited by ilivas, Jan 7 2013, 10:22 AM.
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Tommyb

The employees of Hobby Lobby (who are of many different faiths) shouldn't have federally mandated healthcare laws taken from them, just because the owner decides he wants to be religious. Hobby Lobby is not a religious organization, they sell craft supplies to soccer moms and old ladies. How it is not an infringement on the employees religious beliefs to abide by the owners religious beliefs? Would it be ok if the owners of Hobby Lobby went around and asked all of their thousands of employees what religion they were, and then fired all of the non-Christians, just because it was against their "religious" beliefs? How bout if they fired somebody because they were gay, or because they were an unwed single mother, or they lived with their boyfriend before they were married? You cannot have CEO's running a business based off of religious beliefs, period. If they dont like it, go start a church.

I understand where your coming from and I why you don't like the situation, but this is not the place to change something like this. CEO's running public business based on religious beliefs is an infringement on the religious beliefs of every employee that works there.
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ilivas

Hobby Lobby isn't forcing religious beliefs on their employees. They simply don't want to provide abortion pills, which if they did would be detrimental to their beliefs. If their employees want or need those from their health care, they are free to get them on their own dime, or since the federal government thinks its so important, how about .gov's dime?

Hobby Lobby isn't firing anyone based on their beliefs, nor does it seem they care what their beliefs are. I'm sure lots of gay, or unwed mothers work for Hobby Lobby, they don't seem to have an issue with it. If you want to do something against my religion, that's fine it's your right, do it on your own time and money, but don't ask for my help to do it for you or pay for it.

No one is forcing employees to be Christian. If I have an employee who openly is a nazi and hates Jews, I'm not trying to convert him just because I don't donate money to his internment camp... If a guy wants to be a nazi, whatever, it's his right, I don't care but I'm not gonna fund it or help his Jew hating propaganda.
Edited by ilivas, Jan 7 2013, 10:52 AM.
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Tommyb

Right, but my point is if you allow a non-religious affiliated business to be exempt from any federal law based on the owners beliefs, you're setting a legal precedence for future loopholes like the ones I mentioned. If they can be exempt from this one, what's the difference in firing a gay person? It's against their religious morals, and having them work for their company is infringing upon their religious beliefs.

Also, emergency contraception is not an abortion pill. If a girl is already pregnant, it's not going to work. It's nothing but a higher dose oral contraceptive.
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sn00zie
Administrator
I thought adding the pills was stupid to begin with..... how is that basic med? If you are going to get dirty, get your own birth cont... use your brains. personal responsibility!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

next abortions will be included in basic health.............


-----------

also calling that pill an abortion pill is :rof so stupid.
Edited by sn00zie, Jan 7 2013, 11:26 AM.
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sn00zie
Administrator
i think... im going to side with tommy............but this is exactly why shit like this SHOULD NOT BECOME LAW.

cause once it does... you don't have a choice.

hello gov.. please crawl out of our asses.
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ilivas

Tommyb
Jan 7 2013, 11:15 AM
Right, but my point is if you allow a non-religious affiliated business to be exempt from any federal law based on the owners beliefs, you're setting a legal precedence for future loopholes like the ones I mentioned. If they can be exempt from this one, what's the difference in firing a gay person? It's against their religious morals, and having them work for their company is infringing upon their religious beliefs.

Also, emergency contraception is not an abortion pill. If a girl is already pregnant, it's not going to work. It's nothing but a higher dose oral contraceptive.

If they can force a person to do things against their religion, where will to end. What else can you make them do. Obama has run rampant this term doing whatever he pleases..
I don't see the correlation between firing gay people and forcing someone to break their own religion. I don't think you should be able to do either.

That's the whole point though, you shouldn't have a federal law in the first place that allows you to fire gay people nor a law that forces one to infringe on religious beliefs. It's completely unconstitutional.

Abortion or contraceptive, both are against their religion.

I will not follow everything the government tells me just because it is law. Freedom of privacy, freedom of religion, and disarmament of the populous is currently the hot topic of federal law, and that's not going to fly with me no matter what bills pass in congress.
Edited by ilivas, Jan 7 2013, 11:42 AM.
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ilivas

sn00zie
Jan 7 2013, 11:29 AM
i think... im going to side with tommy............but this is exactly why shit like this SHOULD NOT BECOME LAW.

cause once it does... you don't have a choice.

hello gov.. please crawl out of our asses.
I think you're siding with me because that's what I've been saying. ;)

These should never be a law. The government has no right to say what I can and can't provide for my employees regardless of religious beliefs.
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Tommyb

sn00zie
Jan 7 2013, 11:26 AM
I thought adding the pills was stupid to begin with..... how is that basic med? If you are going to get dirty, get your own birth cont... use your brains. personal responsibility!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

next abortions will be included in basic health.............


-----------

also calling that pill an abortion pill is :rof so stupid.
Haha, I don't think abortions should be covered, but I agree with the birthcontrol. Not necessarily for the contraception aspects, but there are a lot of women that use oral contraceptives for reasons other than preventing birth. The pill does a lot to regulate everything and is actually pretty necessary in some cases. One of my friends was actually put on it in highschool because of something to do with migraines. she would become boarder line deathly ill about once a month due to extreme migraines, I'm talking going 90% blind to the point where she couldn't walk and would need to be escorted out of class in a wheel chair/stretcher. I guess something with the BC regulating her system was a huge help to that and she stopped receiving such ridiculous migraines. But there are a lot of other medical uses that are treated with BC that don't actually have anything to do with the prevention of contraception.
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Tommyb

ilivas
Jan 7 2013, 11:37 AM
Tommyb
Jan 7 2013, 11:15 AM
Right, but my point is if you allow a non-religious affiliated business to be exempt from any federal law based on the owners beliefs, you're setting a legal precedence for future loopholes like the ones I mentioned. If they can be exempt from this one, what's the difference in firing a gay person? It's against their religious morals, and having them work for their company is infringing upon their religious beliefs.

Also, emergency contraception is not an abortion pill. If a girl is already pregnant, it's not going to work. It's nothing but a higher dose oral contraceptive.

If they can force a person to do things against their religion, where will to end. What else can you make them do. Obama has run rampant this term doing whatever he pleases..
I don't see the correlation between firing gay people and forcing someone to break their own religion. I don't think you should be able to do either.

That's the whole point though, you shouldn't have a federal law in the first place that allows you to fire gay people nor a law that forces one to infringe on religious beliefs. It's completely unconstitutional.

Abortion or contraceptive, both are against their religion.
I'm saying if they got their way on this, you would also have to allow them to do whatever the hell else they wanted that goes against their religion, which includes firing people because they're gay. I know that's a stretch, but I'm just using it as an example of why we can't let public businesses be dictated by religious beliefs.
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sn00zie
Administrator
Tommyb
Jan 7 2013, 11:40 AM
sn00zie
Jan 7 2013, 11:26 AM
I thought adding the pills was stupid to begin with..... how is that basic med? If you are going to get dirty, get your own birth cont... use your brains. personal responsibility!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

next abortions will be included in basic health.............


-----------

also calling that pill an abortion pill is :rof so stupid.
Haha, I don't think abortions should be covered, but I agree with the birthcontrol. Not necessarily for the contraception aspects, but there are a lot of women that use oral contraceptives for reasons other than preventing birth. The pill does a lot to regulate everything and is actually pretty necessary in some cases. One of my friends was actually put on it in highschool because of something to do with migraines. she would become boarder line deathly ill about once a month due to extreme migraines, I'm talking going 90% blind to the point where she couldn't walk and would need to be escorted out of class in a wheel chair/stretcher. I guess something with the BC regulating her system was a huge help to that and she stopped receiving such ridiculous migraines. But there are a lot of other medical uses that are treated with BC that don't actually have anything to do with the prevention of contraception.
then if the doc says its for xyz and not abc.. then cover it.

why does everything have to be clusterfked complicated.
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ilivas

Tommyb
Jan 7 2013, 11:43 AM
ilivas
Jan 7 2013, 11:37 AM
Tommyb
Jan 7 2013, 11:15 AM
Right, but my point is if you allow a non-religious affiliated business to be exempt from any federal law based on the owners beliefs, you're setting a legal precedence for future loopholes like the ones I mentioned. If they can be exempt from this one, what's the difference in firing a gay person? It's against their religious morals, and having them work for their company is infringing upon their religious beliefs.

Also, emergency contraception is not an abortion pill. If a girl is already pregnant, it's not going to work. It's nothing but a higher dose oral contraceptive.

If they can force a person to do things against their religion, where will to end. What else can you make them do. Obama has run rampant this term doing whatever he pleases..
I don't see the correlation between firing gay people and forcing someone to break their own religion. I don't think you should be able to do either.

That's the whole point though, you shouldn't have a federal law in the first place that allows you to fire gay people nor a law that forces one to infringe on religious beliefs. It's completely unconstitutional.

Abortion or contraceptive, both are against their religion.
I'm saying if they got their way on this, you would also have to allow them to do whatever the hell else they wanted that goes against their religion, which includes firing people because they're gay. I know that's a stretch, but I'm just using it as an example of why we can't let public businesses be dictated by religious beliefs.
This wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't a law to begin with.
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sn00zie
Administrator
ilivas
Jan 7 2013, 11:40 AM
sn00zie
Jan 7 2013, 11:29 AM
i think... im going to side with tommy............but this is exactly why shit like this SHOULD NOT BECOME LAW.

cause once it does... you don't have a choice.

hello gov.. please crawl out of our asses.
I think you're siding with me because that's what I've been saying. ;)

These should never be a law. The government has no right to say what I can and can't provide for my employees regardless of religious beliefs.
then maybe im agreeing with both. haha


but this shouldn't be a law..... cause once it does, stuff like this happens.
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sn00zie
Administrator
private businesses have much more wiggle room with this stuff.... so if you feel the need, stay private, once you got public... thats it, check your beliefs at the door.
Edited by sn00zie, Jan 7 2013, 11:51 AM.
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