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Sad things happened to this board and this community has moved to the new place. If you lost touch with us, please find us at www.sogayshidae.com. First 10 pages of the new Forum Discussions thread should fill you in with the details of this drama. This forum was restored and frozen for archive purposes. |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 30 2013, 10:20 PM (722,404 Views) | |
| Anon | Sep 25 2013, 07:26 PM Post #35386 |
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i am the anon you discussed w/ about indigenous australians. many articles pointed out the transgenerational trauma they suffered has impacted on their socioeconomic status. basically oppression and systematic oppression that they have been subjected is what has caused the socioeconomic disadvantage. i'm inclined to think this is what has happened to indigenous people of canada, native americans and african americans as well. |
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| Die Zicke | Sep 25 2013, 07:26 PM Post #35387 |
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Caffeine is good for you.
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Hi LA baby
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| Die Zicke | Sep 25 2013, 07:26 PM Post #35388 |
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Caffeine is good for you.
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Double post, my bad y'all. |
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| Lingerie_Anon | Sep 25 2013, 07:29 PM Post #35389 |
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Hello, cutie.
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| Windmill | Sep 25 2013, 07:29 PM Post #35390 |
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Gertrude
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Tribox, I hope I don't come across as too cold by saying this, but I think you should be seeking help elsewhere in the form of a counselor or a therapist. Don't know how long you've been feeling like this, but getting professional help might be a good step. At first this might seem scary because it's a rather big step to undertake, I however do think that you should think about it. Walking around with those type of feelings isn't good at all and you can only get so much help and support from people on the internet. |
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 07:33 PM Post #35391 |
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this americans being obsessed with race thing seems to be discussed a lot here |
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| babycakes | Sep 25 2013, 07:36 PM Post #35392 |
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anons y u no reg we're effectively all anons anyhow |
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| orangedaffodils | Sep 25 2013, 07:44 PM Post #35393 |
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Let ε <0
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^The first 2 articles that search produces is written by the same person - a british white man - so i'm skeptical about the stuff he says about racial politics in the US (he gave an MLK quote but that was before MLK switched gears and aligned himself with Malcolm X when he realized his non-violence tactics weren't working; I honestly don't know why so many people want to quote him in OPPOSITION to the strategies used for true racial equality yet conveniently forget this? ) Disagree with some of the economic stuff he says as well.You can continue to think we're obsessed with race if you want but like i've said before, it's something that cannot be ignored in society and politics when it's such a prevalent factor. |
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 07:51 PM Post #35394 |
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Anonymity gives me more freedom to say what I really want to say. Ngel, I find certain regs annoying based off their opinions and refrain from interacting with them and I am certain there'd be people who would do the same based off my record of comments. |
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| babycakes | Sep 25 2013, 08:03 PM Post #35395 |
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^Well I can see where you're coming from, and, I mean, I like you guys but it wouldn't bother me so much if you chose to ignore me. /shrug I just dislike not knowing which anon I'm chatting with.. I felt like I just turned around mid-conversation and asked someone whether they recall the conversation we were just having.
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| Artichoke | Sep 25 2013, 08:04 PM Post #35396 |
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nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa
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I didn't say that, I said "mainly from things not directly related to race", and I go on to acknowledge that some parts of these things are, in part, correlated to race, but don't share a strong enough causal relationship to say that African-American culture is purely due to them being black. Misquoting and incorrectly attributing opinions to me is also misleading. ^ I'd say do it anyway, but...
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 08:06 PM Post #35397 |
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da who? i feel like i know who you are talking about |
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| orangedaffodils | Sep 25 2013, 08:13 PM Post #35398 |
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Let ε <0
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Omitting the rest of what I said is also essentially misquoting what I responded to - you are arguing that race isn't a deterministic factor into socioeconomic status in the US and I have been saying that it really is; it's not the only cause, but it definitely is one of them. I don't see how that's "attributing opinions" to you when you've clearly expressed that that's what you think. |
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| Artichoke | Sep 25 2013, 08:19 PM Post #35399 |
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nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa
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It's not misquoting, it's a direct quote. Those are the exact words you said, and that's the relevant part of your post that I'm addressing. Taking it out of context doesn't change or distort the meaning of it at all, so... Yeah, it's not a misquote, in the slightest. I'm saying that race isn't the main deterministic factor, not that it's not a factor at all. I've said consistently that it's correlated to factors I feel are more important. idk why you're misunderstanding me; I think it's very clear, and I've reiterated more than once. |
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| Anon | Sep 25 2013, 08:20 PM Post #35400 |
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One acts like SFR from the old thread (has to have the last say in everything, likes to bait people in for wank etc.) and the other is just so weirdly obsessed with taeny and I side eye it. |
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 08:20 PM Post #35401 |
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da In my country people with darker skin or black also have problems fitting in as in they are usually poor. the majority of people living in poverty are dark skinned and african descendents, however, we don't call them african-brazilians, or native-brazilians or whatever. we have a lot of italians descedents here, we don't call them italian-brazilians, german-brazilians. it's so stupid, I don't get it I mean, we don't go around pointing out races. They're all brazilians |
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 08:21 PM Post #35402 |
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da there's an anon who I thought was SFR, not a reg though and yeah SC obsession with taeny is freaky sometimes, she's kinda stalkerish too |
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| orangedaffodils | Sep 25 2013, 08:25 PM Post #35403 |
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Let ε <0
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Yet you don't want to quote the actual response you gave to see why I said that. Taking what I said out of context in this regard does distort it's meaning - it's entirely irrelevant by itself but, hey, since you directly quoted it obviously that means the point doesn't get muddied up, right? Here, for your convenience I present to you the opening part of your response:
You have been touting the "correlation does not equal causation" mantra that they tell you in like first semester economics and i'm saying that it is a cause - not simply a correlation. It's not clear because you don't make it that way. |
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| Artichoke | Sep 25 2013, 08:31 PM Post #35404 |
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nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa
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I shouldn't need to quote the original response, because I've since elaborated on it (in several posts, and even in the ones you're replying to now, which you don't seem to be reading?), and those elaborations mean it's clear that what you're insisting I meant is, obviously, not what I meant, nor what I actually said. If you'd look, I said, "directly related", and then I went on, several times, to state that it is related, and it does play a factor in causing socioeconomic status, but I don't think it's the main cause of the emergence of this culture, nor is the emergence of that culture purely related to race. They teach that in every lesson that involves studies or experiments into anything ever, not just economics, because it's true. Correlation doesn't equal causation. At least I'm actually reading what you're saying, and not deliberately misunderstanding in order to fit with what I expect you to say. This is getting ridiculous now, so I'll just drop it. Seriously, lmfao.
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| Anon | Sep 25 2013, 08:33 PM Post #35405 |
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In it particularly sensitive in picking out writing styles. The reg I'm talking about who acts like SFR is definitely not SFR herself, I just find her irritating in the way I used to find SFR irritating. |
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| Anon | Sep 25 2013, 08:34 PM Post #35406 |
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^ *I'm not particularly |
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| Artichoke | Sep 25 2013, 08:39 PM Post #35407 |
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nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa
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Sorry, I just noticed this! Yeah, I do agree that the historical conflicts in the past have had a long-lasting impact in the socioeconomic status of blacks in that they've been disadvantaged by lack of state support in a way that white people might not have been, and that definitely impacts on the numbers of blacks in the lower income bracket that there are now. It makes a lot of sense, and is probably exactly what happened, which means there's a gross distortion of the percentage of blacks that are living in an income bracket far below their capability for earning, if everyone had started at the same position. However! I think that this effect, while causing the distortion, doesn't necessarily play the main factor in determining the behaviours associated with that culture. It's related, I don't think anybody can deny that without looking significantly ridiculous, but I think that race on its own isn't the main cause as much as the actual socioeconomic status is. When people say, "African-American culture", they generally mean, "African-American culture limited to African-Americans within the lower income bracket", since it's clearly not a culture well-educated African-Americans share with their lower-earning compatriots. btw, when I say "socioeconomic status", I mean that to include a variety of demographic information, such as where they live and the crime rate surrounding it, etc. |
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| orangedaffodils | Sep 25 2013, 08:41 PM Post #35408 |
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Let ε <0
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You shouldn't need to, but clearly you do. Otherwise this problem wouldn't have arisen. I have read them - and responded to them in turn. You're the one who seems to have a greater want to dissect certain elements of what I say just to argue for arguments sake - you only address the points you find fault with in an attempt to nitpick them just because they don't fit what you feel is true. "directly related" doesn't mean "directly caused" and I have been saying that it is. The word deterministic clearly has its roots in "determining" the outcome of a situation. You saying I "attributed" this opinion to you when you clearly gave it yourself is just silly. It is getting ridiculous at this point because we're arguing over semantics but I suppose this is what happens when people don't express things in a clear concise way that's demonstrative of understanding. |
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| 6.63E-34 | Sep 25 2013, 08:49 PM Post #35409 |
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^Quick observation from a bystander: Discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere because a lot of claims are being thrown around without proper substantiation. It's hard to evaluate the merits of the various arguments when there are very few facts to base it on... |
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 08:52 PM Post #35410 |
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da i dont think you can say that well-educated african americans dont share a lot of the culture that lower earning african americans do. like orange said being poor isnt the only thing that ties african americans together as far as culture is concerned. and shes right you didnt really make clear when you wanted to switch between how culture relates to economic disparity and how it relates otherwise. you conflated the two |
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| Artichoke | Sep 25 2013, 08:53 PM Post #35411 |
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nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa
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It isn't a factual argument, it's one about theory. Blacks in the lower income bracket adopt a certain behavioural culture, called "African-American" culture (which is somewhat of a misnomer, as it isn't something shared by all African-Americans, just those in the lower income brackets), and it's a matter of disagreement about what is the main cause - the race, or the socioeconomic status. |
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| Artichoke | Sep 25 2013, 08:56 PM Post #35412 |
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nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa
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I'm not claiming that it's socioeconomic status that ties them together, nor have I ever said anything to that effect. I'm arguing that it's socioeconomic status that provokes the emergence of behaviours associated with African-American culture. tbh it depends on your interpretation of "culture", and what you think that label encompasses. Styles of dance? Styles of hair? Styles of dress? Methods of speaking, and language, and slang? Fashion? Religion? Art? Literature? Music? Edit: I think, at this point, it's a matter of disagreement and talking about why we disagree in an attempt to understand the opposing position better, and perhaps eventually being persuaded to change your mind depending on the strength of the other person's argument. These things are difficult because it's hard to establish a lot of the variables that you talk about, and they mean different things to different people. Still, I think it's nice to gain other perspectives in the hopes of broadening your own. |
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 09:02 PM Post #35413 |
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if by emergence you mean during the days just out of slavery when black people still remained poor then i agree. but thats something that all african-americans can historically hold on to. recent times theres been a culture shift and socioeconomic status of african americans dont really have anything to do with the overarching culture they have. aside from the obvious differences in education and money what do you interpret it to mean? |
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 09:03 PM Post #35414 |
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sa as above sorry i missed your edit
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| 6.63E-34 | Sep 25 2013, 09:14 PM Post #35415 |
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Without facts, how does one assess which theory is more valid, though? One can hardly prove arguments about society and culture with logic alone. The term "African-American culture" has not been defined beyond vaguest of terms. What are its features? There's an assumed understanding, but without a concrete definition that both parties agree on, there is plenty of room for misunderstanding and distortion. |
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| Rexie | Sep 25 2013, 09:21 PM Post #35416 |
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Your friendly neighborhood T-Rex
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this does nothing to change my mind or my feelings towards math those insufferable years I had to go through
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| Artichoke | Sep 25 2013, 09:29 PM Post #35417 |
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nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa
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Yes, I agree that the shared history might give a sense of community to African-Americans that might be absent in other ethnic groups, but I doubt that alone could create an entire group culture that all members share, or at least the majority of them. To say that race is the main cause would imply that all members would comply with it, as the main cause would outweigh all of the other, smaller factors, and, from what I've seen, I don't think that's the case. I may be wrong, since I only know what I experience online, what I'm told by other Americans (a lot of which is varied depending on where they live), and what I read in journals/papers/articles, but there seems to be variation in accordance to socioeconomic class, which aligns with my other sources. And... That's a difficult question I'm not sure I can answer concretely. As I understand it, it's more behaviour than it is personal tastes, and behaviour is very much determined by your environment, which is pretty much solely determined by your socioeconomic class (and your location, which is, in turn, also determined by socioeconomic class and spending capabilities). Even then, the artistic aspects to culture that it may comprise of might also be debated and could be shared by others as well, or take enough influence from other things that make exclusivity impossible. It's hard to speak of a culture of a specific race within a country, because race is such a broad category. Speaking of the culture of a country is easier, because everyone within that country would be experiencing that culture, but it's hard to say what African-Americans and African-Americans only share, since I don't necessarily think that to have such a thing is either healthy or true. Sorry, but I don't think I could give you a definite answer. That puts things a bit awkwardly, here, since we don't even have common grounds or definitions. ![]() What about you? What do you think? With theories, there is no validity, because it's near-impossible to establish, and incredibly unethical to study in a way that would provide the kind of validity that the theories need, especially ones so broad as these ones. Your only hope is in observations, or natural experiments, which are incredibly rare, and also would also, barring extremely ridiculous circumstances, not provide that validity either. It's a matter of personal opinion and preference. That's assuming there can be a shared definition that all parties agree on, which is also unlikely. I think you're taking the wrong approach to this, and asking for reasoning that's impossible to provide. |
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 09:30 PM Post #35418 |
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da its not really a scientific type of situation since there are numerous amounts of variables that contribute to the problem. it isnt always a linear reasoning. burden of proof shouldnt be required in a discussion and lack of it doesnt necessarily dismiss the claims made by either party. some helpful sources were given a page or so back. if people want to look things up to assure the reasoning is sound then thats on them. i may know what culture is here but not there the americans are in agreement with one another so theres a disconnect of interpretation. since this is an american related topic i think others are misunderstanding them. its hard to make clear when another person not of that area keeps insisting that a person who lives there doesnt understand the issue when they have a better understanding of it than anyone else in the argument |
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 09:46 PM Post #35419 |
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^sa honestly i dont see this discussion going anywhere anymore certain people have made a point to ignore most of the things said yet continue to talk about it like they know anything about what "culture" means when theyre not african american or even american for that matter really what is their opinion worth about a culture they fail to recognize as a culture? |
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| Guest | Sep 25 2013, 10:41 PM Post #35420 |
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MU 1-0 LIV Revenge is sweet. |
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) Disagree with some of the economic stuff he says as well.


9:04 PM Jul 11