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Topic Started: Jan 30 2013, 10:20 PM (723,278 Views)
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Apr 23 2013, 01:38 AM
Artichoke
Apr 23 2013, 01:22 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 01:17 AM
da Harm isn't only physical, there's also psychological harm.
But there's a difference between offence and harm, which, although is difficult to establish, is still quite tangibly there. I might consider homophobic views offensive, and I might disagree with them, and they might contradict what I think to be true, but I don't feel as if that is enough grounds for banning them.

I'll draw upon an example to illustrate my point.
Someone informing you that they believe homosexuality to be morally wrong is not harm, it is offence.
Someone calling you a homophobic slur and/or otherwise insulting your integrity as a person once is not harm, it is offence.
However, someone systematically insulting and abusing you with the full intent of causing emotional pain to you is not offence, that is harm.

Obviously, each individual case would be different and you'd require contextual information to truly be able to form a rational judgement, and even then there's a large amount of room for disagreement on what constitutes offence and what constitutes harm, but for the most part, it should be fairly clear where the distinction lies.
For you it might just be an offense. But other young kids might be hearing that from their parents, from teachers, from school kids, from people that they trust and it might cause psychological trauma. You cannot rationalize hate.
da i completely agree with you. because of homophopia some gay kids grow up believing that being gay is wrong, so they end up hiding their sexuality, living a lie or doing something even more extreme; killing themselves.
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Artichoke
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Apr 23 2013, 01:38 AM
For you it might just be an offense. But other young kids might be hearing that from their parents, from teachers, from school kids, from people that they trust and it might cause psychological trauma. You cannot rationalize hate.
You also cannot rationalise the banning of opinions based on the hint of potential offence in the possible future, either. It causes harm towards unfortunate victims of drug abuse to be stigmatised as well, but I hardly believe you'll be one to campaign for banning the expression of disapproval over what they've been unlucky enough to become subjected to.

NOTE: I am addressing the issue of harm only. Nothing to do with homophobia, just harm.

Conditioning any child - or even any person - to believe any aspect of themselves beyond their control is morally wrong is abuse, not just homophobia. Calling your child stupid, or aggressive, or worthless; that all does harm, and we should be banning the harmful practices, not the opinions that some might share completely innocently.

Even removing that, we shouldn't allow one view to dominate anyway, because that's the tyranny of the majority; we should instead introduce a variety of ideas and not enforce any one over any other person, and respect their rights to choose as a mature, intellectual adult.

Also, note that I'm referring specifically to opinions, not a blind dogma of hatred.

ngl I'm a huge Mill fangirl.
Edited by Artichoke, Apr 23 2013, 01:50 AM.
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Apr 23 2013, 01:41 AM
no, you mean excatly what you said. if you're gay you should know better than to call it a lifestyle. as a homosexual person you should know how offensive shit like that is.
If you want to focus on the semantics of irrelevant word choice instead of my actual argument, feel free to do that.

Bakery
Apr 23 2013, 01:44 AM
Artichoke, you should read the tolerance argument since you like philosophical things.
I have! :lol:

Everything Mill says, I agree with, tbh. Although his view on barbarian tribes is a little sketchy, even if it's expected for the period.
Edited by Artichoke, Apr 23 2013, 01:59 AM.
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Apr 23 2013, 01:47 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 01:38 AM
For you it might just be an offense. But other young kids might be hearing that from their parents, from teachers, from school kids, from people that they trust and it might cause psychological trauma. You cannot rationalize hate.
You also cannot rationalise the banning of opinions based on the hint of potential offence in the possible future, either. It causes harm towards unfortunate victims of drug abuse to be stigmatised as well, but I hardly believe you'll be one to campaign for banning the expression of disapproval over what they've been unlucky enough to become subjected to.

NOTE: I am addressing the issue of harm only. Nothing to do with homophobia, just harm.

Conditioning any child - or even any person - to believe any aspect of themselves beyond their control is morally wrong is abuse, not just homophobia. Calling your child stupid, or aggressive, or worthless; that all does harm, and we should be banning the harmful practices, not the opinions that some might share completely innocently.

Even removing that, we shouldn't allow one view to dominate anyway, because that's the tyranny of the majority; we should instead introduce a variety of ideas and not enforce any one over any other person, and respect their rights to choose as a mature, intellectual adult.

Also, note that I'm referring specifically to opinions, not a blind dogma of hatred.

ngl I'm a huge Mill fangirl.
Except it's not a rational opinion, it's hate or ignorance at best and it is harmful.

That drug abuse comparison made no sense to me.
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Apr 23 2013, 01:59 AM
Except it's not a rational opinion, it's hate or ignorance at best and it is harmful.

That drug abuse comparison made no sense to me.
If it's ignorance, the only way to remove it is to challenge it, and you can't do this if you suppress it. If it's so obviously wrong, you should allow it to be openly discussed, so people can see how ridiculous it is for themselves. You should campaign and entreat and beg and remonstrate with them so that they change their mind, but you can't force people to change it, and attempting to force them to repress their views only reinforces them, which is far more harmful and far more potentially dangerous.

The drug abuse comparison was an analogy to show that any stereotype or stigma can be harmful.
Edited by Artichoke, Apr 23 2013, 02:07 AM.
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Apr 23 2013, 01:48 AM
Bakery
Apr 23 2013, 01:44 AM
Artichoke, you should read the tolerance argument since you like philosophical things.
I have! :lol:

Everything Mill says, I agree with, tbh. Although his view on barbarian tribes is a little sketchy, even if it's expected for the period.
Mmm, all philosophers seem to fall prey to their time periods' views at some point. Though, i guess it would fit with his utilitarianism if he thought that assimilating them was for the greater good - so everyone could progress. At least he's consistent then i suppose. :grim:
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Bakery
Apr 23 2013, 02:21 AM
Mmm, all philosophers seem to fall prey to their time periods' views at some point. Though, i guess it would fit with his utilitarianism if he thought that assimilating them was for the greater good - so everyone could progress. At least he's consistent then i suppose. :grim:
It's a shame, because he's speaking such amazingly good sense... Riiiight up until he says BUT ACTUALLY BARBARIANS CAN BE RUN BY A DESPOT AS LONG AS IT'S A BENEVOLENT ONE. Well, who're you to decide that, John Stuart Milliam?!
Edited by Artichoke, Apr 23 2013, 02:29 AM.
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Apr 23 2013, 02:01 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 01:59 AM
Except it's not a rational opinion, it's hate or ignorance at best and it is harmful.

That drug abuse comparison made no sense to me.
If it's ignorance, the only way to remove it is to challenge it, and you can't do this if you suppress it. If it's so obviously wrong, you should allow it to be openly discussed, so people can see how ridiculous it is for themselves. You should campaign and entreat and beg and remonstrate with them so that they change their mind, but you can't force people to change it, and attempting to force them to repress their views only reinforces them, which is far more harmful and far more potentially dangerous.

The drug abuse comparison was an analogy to show that any stereotype or stigma can be harmful.
da I see what Arti means here, I know there are different opinions on here and I respect all of them. All in all homophobia = bad, no one disagrees here.

but what Arti was implying is to be the bigger person and let homophobes see for themselves how ridiculous they are. No good will come out of enforcing hate upon someone they'd just hate back and probably in a more vicious manner. It'll turn into a mean cycle.

Then again it really depends on the homophobe themselves and are they willing to open up their eyes and try to understand. Many won't and that's the sad truth but there is no harm in giving the benefit of the doubt incase there are some that are willing to try.
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I DON'T CARE ABOUT ALL YOUR TERRIBLE OPINIONS ON HOMOPHOBIA AND RACISM BECAUSE DEL GAY RELEASED HER NEW SONG AND IT IS GLORIOUS

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Key of Jail.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130422154756.htm
Antibody Transforms Stem Cells Directly Into Brain Cells
Apr. 22, 2013 — In a serendipitous discovery, scientists at The Scripps Research Institute (TSRI) have found a way to turn bone marrow stem cells directly into brain cells.
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The Constitution and "free speech" has really become this bullshit thing that no one believes in or actually understands, but everyone is just dying to use it to justify their wants and actions and quite frankly, i'm sick of it; Any justification of baseless hatred is apologetic in nature and makes you no more better than the people spewing hateful diatribe.

Arti, stop going on about the metaphysics of homosexuality/homophobia and legality. Like...damn, do something with your life please aside from boring us to death with your overly verbose, irrelevant, philosophically oppressive bullshit.
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Artichoke
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Apr 23 2013, 02:45 AM
The Constitution and "free speech" has really become this bullshit thing that no one believes in or actually understands, but everyone is just dying to use it to justify their wants and actions and quite frankly, i'm sick of it; Any justification of baseless hatred is apologetic in nature and makes you no more better than the people spewing hateful diatribe.

Arti, stop going on about the metaphysics of homosexuality/homophobia and legality. Like...damn, do something with your life please aside from boring us to death with your overly verbose, irrelevant, philosophically oppressive bullshit.
1) I'm not American so the constitution means fuck all to me and/or my life.

2) I am doing something with my life, and that's enjoying it. Judging from the bitterness in your reply, I can assume that the sentiment doesn't apply to you.
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Apr 23 2013, 02:51 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 02:45 AM
The Constitution and "free speech" has really become this bullshit thing that no one believes in or actually understands, but everyone is just dying to use it to justify their wants and actions and quite frankly, i'm sick of it; Any justification of baseless hatred is apologetic in nature and makes you no more better than the people spewing hateful diatribe.

Arti, stop going on about the metaphysics of homosexuality/homophobia and legality. Like...damn, do something with your life please aside from boring us to death with your overly verbose, irrelevant, philosophically oppressive bullshit.
1) I'm not American so the constitution means fuck all to me and/or my life.

2) I am doing something with my life, and that's enjoying it. Judging from the bitterness in your reply, I can assume that the sentiment doesn't apply to you.
1) Did I say "American" Constitution? No. Besides, the Australian Constitution in regards to free speech is more smaller in scope than any other westernized nation, so using that to justify anything, for you in particular, makes your point moot.

2) If you were enjoying it, you'd spend less time arguing about things you only pretend to understand; You keep going on and on with your meaningless rhetoric about the implications of free speech and the law and what that means logically (protip: there is no logic behind your argument).

And lol @ "the sentiment doesn't apply to you" are you on thesaures.com right now? Merriam-Webster perhaps?
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Apr 23 2013, 03:05 AM
) Did I say "American" Constitution? No. Besides, the Australian Constitution in regards to free speech is more smaller in scope than any other westernized nation, so using that to justify anything, for you in particular, makes your point moot.

2) If you were enjoying it, you'd spend less time arguing about things you only pretend to understand; You keep going on and on with your meaningless rhetoric about the implications of free speech and the law and what that means logically (protip: there is no logic behind your argument).

And lol @ "the sentiment doesn't apply to you" are you on thesaures.com right now? Merriam-Webster perhaps?
wud u prafar dat i talk lyk diz bcuz it wud make u feel mre kumfortible wiv da kontentz uv ma postz


w/e mks u happi bc u r obvs not happi rn

Edit: In all seriousness, though, if the only sort of opposition you can conjure up is "lol i bet u use thesaurus" and then enthusing about how lacking I am in understanding, whilst simultaneously lacking in any sort of counter-argument beyond ~u dumb tho~, I'm going to take that as the compliment that it is.

I'll give you some time to be angry about that on Tumblr, along with your other irrational social justice warriors in your keyboard army circlejerks.
Edited by Artichoke, Apr 23 2013, 03:10 AM.
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Apr 23 2013, 03:07 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 03:05 AM
) Did I say "American" Constitution? No. Besides, the Australian Constitution in regards to free speech is more smaller in scope than any other westernized nation, so using that to justify anything, for you in particular, makes your point moot.

2) If you were enjoying it, you'd spend less time arguing about things you only pretend to understand; You keep going on and on with your meaningless rhetoric about the implications of free speech and the law and what that means logically (protip: there is no logic behind your argument).

And lol @ "the sentiment doesn't apply to you" are you on thesaures.com right now? Merriam-Webster perhaps?
wud u prafar dat i talk lyk diz bcuz it wud make u feel mre kumfortible wiv da kontentz uv ma postz


w/e mks u happi bc u r obvs not happi rn
Oh look! There it is! The Point!

You just missed it.
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Apr 23 2013, 03:09 AM
Oh look! There it is! The Point!

You just missed it.
Indeed I did miss it. Probably because it was absent.
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Apr 23 2013, 03:05 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 02:51 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 02:45 AM
The Constitution and "free speech" has really become this bullshit thing that no one believes in or actually understands, but everyone is just dying to use it to justify their wants and actions and quite frankly, i'm sick of it; Any justification of baseless hatred is apologetic in nature and makes you no more better than the people spewing hateful diatribe.

Arti, stop going on about the metaphysics of homosexuality/homophobia and legality. Like...damn, do something with your life please aside from boring us to death with your overly verbose, irrelevant, philosophically oppressive bullshit.
1) I'm not American so the constitution means fuck all to me and/or my life.

2) I am doing something with my life, and that's enjoying it. Judging from the bitterness in your reply, I can assume that the sentiment doesn't apply to you.
1) Did I say "American" Constitution? No. Besides, the Australian Constitution in regards to free speech is more smaller in scope than any other westernized nation, so using that to justify anything, for you in particular, makes your point moot.

2) If you were enjoying it, you'd spend less time arguing about things you only pretend to understand; You keep going on and on with your meaningless rhetoric about the implications of free speech and the law and what that means logically (protip: there is no logic behind your argument).

And lol @ "the sentiment doesn't apply to you" are you on thesaures.com right now? Merriam-Webster perhaps?
when you say THE constitution, you meant a specific constitution (because every nation has one) that one of the basic rights is freedom of expression
so you can't really apply THE constitution to everyone here lol

I'm sorry but this is one of the most stupidest post I've ever seen here
your first sentence is gold
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Artichoke
Apr 23 2013, 03:07 AM
Edit: In all seriousness, though, if the only sort of opposition you can conjure up is "lol i bet u use thesaurus" and then enthusing about how lacking I am in understanding, whilst simultaneously lacking in any sort of counter-argument beyond ~u dumb tho~, I'm going to take that as the compliment that it is.
Did you not read what I fucking wrote? Jfc, get off your high-horse and stop being so pretentious.
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Apr 23 2013, 03:10 AM
Did you not read what I fucking wrote? Jfc, get off your high-horse and stop being so pretentious.
I'll have you know that the view from my high-horse is exceptional, actually.
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Hi Soonkyu :bed:
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Apr 23 2013, 03:10 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 03:05 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 02:51 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep1) I'm not American so the constitution means fuck all to me and/or my life.

2) I am doing something with my life, and that's enjoying it. Judging from the bitterness in your reply, I can assume that the sentiment doesn't apply to you.
1) Did I say "American" Constitution? No. Besides, the Australian Constitution in regards to free speech is more smaller in scope than any other westernized nation, so using that to justify anything, for you in particular, makes your point moot.

2) If you were enjoying it, you'd spend less time arguing about things you only pretend to understand; You keep going on and on with your meaningless rhetoric about the implications of free speech and the law and what that means logically (protip: there is no logic behind your argument).

And lol @ "the sentiment doesn't apply to you" are you on thesaures.com right now? Merriam-Webster perhaps?
when you say THE constitution, you meant a specific constitution (because every nation has one) that one of the basic rights is freedom of expression
so you can't really apply THE constitution to everyone here lol

I'm sorry but this is one of the most stupidest post I've ever seen here
your first sentence is gold
You are literally arguing semantics right now. I'm sorry you don't have an actual point to make, but please stop wasting my time with your nonsense.

We all already know you're from Australia, you've mentioned it several time. Most westernized countries (ie; most countries represented here) have the same notions of freedom of speech. They vary in scope, but it's fundamentally the same.
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> we all already know you're from australia
> it's a guest
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Artichoke
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omg is this one of those internet troll-bots where they go on paragraph randomisers and it seems like they're making sense but really they're not? I've actually never seen one of those in action.

HI
Edited by Artichoke, Apr 23 2013, 03:16 AM.
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Apr 23 2013, 03:13 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 03:10 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 03:05 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep1) I'm not American so the constitution means fuck all to me and/or my life.

2)
when you say THE constitution, you meant a specific constitution (because every nation has one) that one of the basic rights is freedom of expression
so you can't really apply THE constitution to everyone here lol

I'm sorry but this is one of the most stupidest post I've ever seen here
your first sentence is gold
You are literally arguing semantics right now. I'm sorry you don't have an actual point to make, but please stop wasting my time with your nonsense.

We all already know you're from Australia, you've mentioned it several time. Most westernized countries (ie; most countries represented here) have the same notions of freedom of speech. They vary in scope, but it's fundamentally the same.
um, what are you blabbering about?
you're the one that just mentioned THE constitution like everyone here is living in the same country and is its citizen

and no I'm not from australia (wtf)
where did you get that from?
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Apr 23 2013, 03:16 AM
omg is this one of those internet troll-bots where they go on paragraph randomisers and it seems like they're making sense but really they're not? I've actually never seen one of those in action.

HI
So anyone that calls you out is a troll? Glad you didn't win the mod poll...
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Apr 23 2013, 03:19 AM
So anyone that calls you out is a troll? Glad you didn't win the mod poll...
Oh, I'm sorry. I just assumed you were a troll because you shared the personality of one. My mistake.
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Apr 23 2013, 03:20 AM
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Apr 23 2013, 03:19 AM
So anyone that calls you out is a troll? Glad you didn't win the mod poll...
Oh, I'm sorry. I just assumed you were a troll because you shared the personality of one. My mistake.
I'm not the anon arguing with you, I'm a DA.
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Apr 23 2013, 03:22 AM
I'm not the anon arguing with you, I'm a DA.
Awww, well that completely ruins my plan. Why do you do this to me? :'(
Edited by Artichoke, Apr 23 2013, 03:23 AM.
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The real cat lady.
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Random videos are random
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Apr 23 2013, 03:58 AM
Random videos are random
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Key of Jail.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP4NMoJcFd4
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Apr 22 2013, 06:53 PM
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Apr 22 2013, 06:12 PM
Oh wow, lol, that just suddenly became complex.

RECS WOULD BE LOVELY. PLEASE.
Okay, my favourite live song will always be Ongaku because of the life they bring to it and it's one of their most energetic songs, with my favourite studio song being Natsu no Ringo.

Destination Unknown is a good rock-type song, too, but I prefer the more classical-sounding ones. I also like Gloria (which I can't find a normal version of on Youtube, only stupid fancovers that I refuse to listen to), Manten, Hanataba, Door, Kiichigo no Shigemi ni, Yane no Mukou ni, fairytale, Haru wa Kogane no Yume no Naka etc.

Their debut song is Oblivious, as I said, but their most famous songs are probably Hikari no Senritsu, Kagayaku Sora no Shijima ni wa or Magia (I think Wakana had the flu at this event, tho, so she sounds subpar) considering they play them at every single event omfg.

Houseki and Synchronicity are solo songs with Keiko, Where the Lights Are and Mizu no Akashi are ones with Wakana as the solo singer.

Members;
Keiko (warning huge picture)

Hikaru

Wakana (warning huge picture)


AND THAT'S KALAFINA :fun:

Posted Image

sjkfnsajkfhsakjfsjfsa im so excited i love kalafina so much omg
Sorry. I suddenly became MIA because I had class.
Thank you for the recs! I'll check 'em out! :D
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