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Topic Started: Jan 30 2013, 10:20 PM (723,337 Views)
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Leave the woman alone, that´s how she thinks, you telling her otherwise won´t change anything. It´s her friend not yours deal with it.
And can be call sexual prejudice Arti
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Artichoke
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Mar 8 2013, 01:03 AM
i didn't mean it like that. i just don't understand how someone who's gay can defend homophobes. they are wrong. their "opinions" are wrong. that should be clear, especially to someone who's gay...

and yes, it makes no sense to compare smoking and homosexuality. they have nothing to do with each other. smoking is something you choose to do, being gay is not something you choose to be.

and i'm sorry for confusing the words opinion and option. terribly, terribly sorry for such a huge mistake. :retard:

Well, thanks for the clarification, but... I don't see why I can't respect her opinion, despite how gay I am or am not.

She may disapprove on a personal level, but she's never acted against somebody for being gay, and she mentioned while telling me that she won't let it affect what she thinks of them as a person and that they're free to do what they want with their lives because it isn't any of her business, but that she does disapprove and think that it is a thing you shouldn't do.

I can't see why that would clash with whatever my sexuality happened to be. If I want people to respect my individual liberty to do what I want with my life, I have to equally respect other people's individual liberty to do what they want with their lives. If that includes silently disapproving, that's fine. As long as that doesn't stray into coercing other people.

Mar 8 2013, 01:03 AM
Artichoke, just a question. If your friend was more vocal about being anti-gay, participating in manifestations and whatnot, would you still respect her "opinion"?

I'm not the anon you are talking to, btw.

It would depend on the kind of protest or action that she was taking. If it was an attempt to try and limit other people's lifestyles because of her opinions, then no, I wouldn't support it. You can think what you want, as long as you don't try and push it on other people. I'm a huge believer in individual freedom of expression, and, despite how much I dislike homophobia, I accept that other people have the right to be as such, right up until they act out against others. Then it's unacceptable.

Mill said this best, I think. "My right to swing my fist ends at your face".

Ihla
Mar 8 2013, 01:02 AM
I know it's confusing, but there is a very thin line.

A homophobe will not even think twice before hurting you in any way he can (emotionally, physically...) and he will not even bat an eye while doing it. They can be the nicest people you might know until they encounter a gay person. They are not interested in getting to know you hate unreasonably.

A person not accepting of homosexuality for whatever reason (mostly ignorance or religion) is just that, not accepting of it, but still like you as a person.
It would be kind of like smoking and drinking to an extent (I know, bit of a stupid comparison, but it's just a simple way of explain it.)

Ahhh, yes, then she's the former. Like I said, she's a very polite and respectful person, so I can't even imagine her letting something like that significantly influence her opinions on people.
Edited by Artichoke, Mar 8 2013, 01:18 AM.
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Taengoo
Mar 8 2013, 12:53 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 12:48 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 12:42 AM

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it's sungm!n but apparently the interview was actually fake
I thought it was UFO reply to someone who asked?
i don't remember, i've read it was in a "100 questions/answers" but i'm really not sure , not very fond of suju ^^
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Mar 8 2013, 01:10 AM
Leave the woman alone, that´s how she thinks, you telling her otherwise won´t change anything. It´s her friend not yours deal with it.
And can be call sexual prejudice Arti
but what she's saying is not just about "how she thinks". it affects all gay people badly, that someone who's gay thinks homophobia is just an opinion that other people are entitled to have. it gives an impression that gay people accept homophobic views. when in fact, most don't. we should be fighting homophobia, not encouraging it.
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Artichoke
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Mar 8 2013, 01:15 AM
but what she's saying is not just about "how she thinks". it affects all gay people badly, that someone who's gay thinks homophobia is just an opinion that other people are entitled to have. it gives an impression that gay people accept homophobic views. when in fact, most don't. we should be fighting homophobia, not encouraging it.
No, I am speaking specifically about how I think. You can all think differently.
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ugh tomorrow I'll go back to uni and I'm so not ready to face my ex crush
she thinks I'm still into her, ugh! it's gonna be troublesome, I can't just say to her: you know what? I don't like you anymore so we won't be a couple and we won't be hanging out like we used to cause it's awkward...I can't do nor tell her that.

gotta grow some ovaries or something lol and act normal and try to keep distance slowly. It's totally my fault I feel like I'm a douchebag I initiate it, idk why things changed why I don't like her that way anymore

what a douchebag I am, what a stupid bitch I am :clap: :bigcry:
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Mar 8 2013, 12:51 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 12:48 AM
Artichoke
Mar 8 2013, 12:42 AM

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it's sungm!n but apparently the interview was actually fake
it wasnt fake it was taken from his cy page
when it first spread on the internet you could still get the link to the entry where he answered those questions
oh ok it's sad to hear then... I thought i read somewhere that it was fake. sorry for the false information
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Taengoo

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Mar 8 2013, 01:15 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 01:10 AM
Leave the woman alone, that´s how she thinks, you telling her otherwise won´t change anything. It´s her friend not yours deal with it.
And can be call sexual prejudice Arti
but what she's saying is not just about "how she thinks". it affects all gay people badly, that someone who's gay thinks homophobia is just an opinion that other people are entitled to have. it gives an impression that gay people accept homophobic views. when in fact, most don't. we should be fighting homophobia, not encouraging it.
It doesn't seem like you know exactly what homophobia is, or hasn't experienced irl
Homophobia is far worse than just thinking gay people shouln't get married
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I can't see why that would clash with whatever my sexuality happened to be. If I want people to respect my individual liberty to do what I want with my life, I have to equally respect other people's individual liberty to do what they want with their lives. If that includes silently disapproving, that's fine. As long as that doesn't stray into coercing other people.


it may be silent disapproving for now, but that can change. and if she's going to have kids, she will pass her views about homosexuality to her offspring and so on. (yes, kids of homophopic parents don't always turn out to be homophobic... but it's very probable.) so just because she isn't vocal about her disapproval, it does NOT mean that it's not harmful to gay people. that is why gay people shouldn't just quietly accept those kind of "opinions", we should do our best trying to make homophopic people change their views. because it is possible to change those views, as homophobia isn't natural, it's something you learned from somewhere or someone (your parents, usually).
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Mar 8 2013, 01:15 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 01:10 AM
Leave the woman alone, that´s how she thinks, you telling her otherwise won´t change anything. It´s her friend not yours deal with it.
And can be call sexual prejudice Arti
but what she's saying is not just about "how she thinks". it affects all gay people badly, that someone who's gay thinks homophobia is just an opinion that other people are entitled to have. it gives an impression that gay people accept homophobic views. when in fact, most don't. we should be fighting homophobia, not encouraging it.
Da
Except she's made it more than clear in every post of hers that it's how she feels, not how everyone else feels.
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Mar 8 2013, 01:26 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 01:15 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 01:10 AM
Leave the woman alone, that´s how she thinks, you telling her otherwise won´t change anything. It´s her friend not yours deal with it.
And can be call sexual prejudice Arti
but what she's saying is not just about "how she thinks". it affects all gay people badly, that someone who's gay thinks homophobia is just an opinion that other people are entitled to have. it gives an impression that gay people accept homophobic views. when in fact, most don't. we should be fighting homophobia, not encouraging it.
Da
Except she's made it more than clear in every post of hers that it's how she feels, not how everyone else feels.
YES, so? there are many people who aren't going to care whether it's how one person feels or how everyone feels. i've seen too many cases of straight people saying shit like "my friend who's gay doesn't find the word 'fag' offensive, so it's alright for me to use it to address all gay people!!!"
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Artichoke
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Welp, moving it here.

Taengoo
Mar 8 2013, 01:25 AM
It doesn't seem like you know exactly what homophobia is, or hasn't experienced irl
Homophobia is far worse than just thinking gay people shouln't get married

I think that's extreme homophobia, and I think you can have varying levels of prejudice and discrimination. Subtle distinctions like that matter when approaching a subject that's as multifaceted, socially sensitive and complex as this. There're a lot of institutions, cultures and traditions regarding this subject and I think it should be treated exactly as complicated as it is.

But hey! Difference makes the world go round.  :grouphug:

Mar 8 2013, 01:25 AM
it may be silent disapproving for now, but that can change. and if she's going to have kids, she will pass her views about homosexuality to her offspring and so on. (yes, kids of homophopic parents don't always turn out to be homophobic... but it's very probable.) so just because she isn't vocal about her disapproval, it does NOT mean that it's not harmful to gay people. that is why gay people shouldn't just quietly accept those kind of "opinions", we should do our best trying to make homophopic people change their views. because it is possible to change those views, as homophobia isn't natural, it's something you learned from somewhere or someone (your parents, usually).

I'm not saying you can't attempt to change their minds, because it's through discussing your opinions that you grow and mature as a person, and it's through doubting your own views that encourages you to think about them, thus leading you along the road to becoming a rational individual, and most social progress occurs when the status quo is challenged. It's good to have conversations about these things that test your convictions and offer you opportunities to expand your knowledge.

I'm just saying that you should do this while simultaneously respecting their right to disagree. You won't get anywhere with people if you refuse to acknowledge their right to be different from you.

tbh, I feel like this is getting kind of ridiculous. Are you going to kick me out of the gay club because I don't reflect well on the hive mind and I encourage homophobia? :eyeroll:
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Taengoo
Mar 8 2013, 01:25 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 01:15 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 01:10 AM
Leave the woman alone, that´s how she thinks, you telling her otherwise won´t change anything. It´s her friend not yours deal with it.
And can be call sexual prejudice Arti
but what she's saying is not just about "how she thinks". it affects all gay people badly, that someone who's gay thinks homophobia is just an opinion that other people are entitled to have. it gives an impression that gay people accept homophobic views. when in fact, most don't. we should be fighting homophobia, not encouraging it.
It doesn't seem like you know exactly what homophobia is, or hasn't experienced irl
Homophobia is far worse than just thinking gay people shouln't get married
don't tell me i don't know what homophobia is. because i do.
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Mar 8 2013, 01:35 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 01:25 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 01:15 AM

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It doesn't seem like you know exactly what homophobia is, or hasn't experienced irl
Homophobia is far worse than just thinking gay people shouln't get married
don't tell me i don't know what homophobia is. because i do.
wait, did you even say that to me? cause you replied to me, so i thought so, but now i'm not sure. sorry if i misunderstood.
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Ihla
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Artichoke
Mar 8 2013, 01:34 AM
Welp, moving it here.

Taengoo
Mar 8 2013, 01:25 AM
It doesn't seem like you know exactly what homophobia is, or hasn't experienced irl
Homophobia is far worse than just thinking gay people shouln't get married

I think that's extreme homophobia, and I think you can have varying levels of prejudice and discrimination. Subtle distinctions like that matter when approaching a subject that's as multifaceted, socially sensitive and complex as this. There're a lot of institutions, cultures and traditions regarding this subject and I think it should be treated exactly as complicated as it is.

But hey! Difference makes the world go round.  :grouphug:
"Extreme homophobia", "normal homophobia"... the point is that it hurts, and I have to agree with Taengoo here in thinking* that you haven't been victim of it (which, hey! I hope never happens) and believe me when I say that opinions of levels, distinctions or whatever fade away once it happens.
Edited by Ihla, Mar 8 2013, 01:53 AM.
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Artichoke
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Ihla
Mar 8 2013, 01:43 AM
"Extreme homophobia", "normal homophobia"... the point is that it hurts, and I have to agree with Taengoo here that you haven't been victim of it (which, hey! I hope never happens) and believe me when I say that opinions of levels, distinctions or whatever fade away once it happens.
I can see why it would, definitely! Personal involvement will undoubtedly add a layer that wasn't there before to your perceptions, and I think that extra layer is just as valid in considering homophobia as a whole as well. In something as far-reaching as this, with such influence as this, and with such importance as this, I think all experiences are necessary to a good understanding and should be included in discussion, and all viewpoints should be seen from.

But then, at the same time, I think that there should also be a level of distance in how you regard it, if that makes sense. ._.7

Edit: Also, as an extension of my views on personal liberty, I'm also a huge believer in free speech. Take that as you will, lol.
Edited by Artichoke, Mar 8 2013, 01:52 AM.
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Artichoke
Mar 8 2013, 01:34 AM
Welp, moving it here.

Taengoo
Mar 8 2013, 01:25 AM
It doesn't seem like you know exactly what homophobia is, or hasn't experienced irl
Homophobia is far worse than just thinking gay people shouln't get married

I think that's extreme homophobia, and I think you can have varying levels of prejudice and discrimination. Subtle distinctions like that matter when approaching a subject that's as multifaceted, socially sensitive and complex as this. There're a lot of institutions, cultures and traditions regarding this subject and I think it should be treated exactly as complicated as it is.

But hey! Difference makes the world go round.  :grouphug:
You mean hate makes the world go round?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to gang up on you here but having this view of an open minded person and respectful of others opinions might look great in your head but it doesn't really work in the real world when talking about homophobia and experiencing it first hand.

I hope you never get the hate because it's disheartening.
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Mar 8 2013, 01:59 AM
You mean hate makes the world go round?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to gang up on you here but having this view of an open minded person and respectful of others opinions might look great in your head but it doesn't really work in the real world when talking about homophobia and experiencing it first hand.

I hope you never get the hate because it's disheartening.
Feel free to do whatever you want, lol. Isn't that the point of this discussion?

I don't think you should return hate with hate. If someone insults you on a personal level, I think you should deal with that. It's not nice, and you might hate it, but as long as what they said isn't implicit in coercion or violence, I don't think anything should be done to actively restrain their freedom to say it. I think I said in the old thread, but if someone insults or degrades me, it may upset me, and it might not make me feel great, and I might dislike them for saying it, but I won't seek to control their liberties through my emotions.

Offense doesn't legitimise oppression of any kind, whether that's offense towards a person's homosexual nature, or whether it's offense towards what someone says about you. If someone dislikes me, it's well within their rights to say so, and it's my responsibility to accept that as their sovereignty over their actions; in the same way, if I dislike what they've said about me, it's well within my rights to counter it, and it's their responsibility to accept that I might do that as well.

I think repressing any kind of view is much more dangerous than allowing it to be expressed. If it's expressed, we can recognise and challenge it through intellectual debate, and the person has to deal with whatever social consequences arise from what they've done. Here, if someone is racist, people would look down on them, and they have to acknowledge that this is just as legitimate as their right to express racist views. Free speech doesn't protect you from criticism - it allows criticism to be said.

As I say, I respect your opinion to think differently. Your experiences and opinions are just as valid as mine, and equally as correct. The very fact that we can sit here and discuss something like this in such a way is testament to open-mindedness.

You may be right, and this may be an overly optimistic view of the world, but if we don't have optimism, how can we aspire towards anything better for ourselves and our future?
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I can't log in on skype


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Artichoke
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ninja
Mar 8 2013, 02:09 AM
I can't log in on skype


Why not? D:
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Artichoke
Mar 8 2013, 02:10 AM
ninja
Mar 8 2013, 02:09 AM
I can't log in on skype


Why not? D:
Oh!


I'm back.
'kay, that was brief.
Hello.... :wink:
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Mar 8 2013, 02:12 AM
Oh!


I'm back.
'kay, that was brief.
Hello.... :wink:
Guten Abend. :wink:
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so we should just shut up and accept people hating us for what we are and we can't change? we shouldn't fight for equal rights and all that jazz?


I love you arti but...
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Artichoke
Mar 8 2013, 02:07 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 01:59 AM
You mean hate makes the world go round?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to gang up on you here but having this view of an open minded person and respectful of others opinions might look great in your head but it doesn't really work in the real world when talking about homophobia and experiencing it first hand.

I hope you never get the hate because it's disheartening.
Feel free to do whatever you want, lol. Isn't that the point of this discussion?

I don't think you should return hate with hate. If someone insults you on a personal level, I think you should deal with that. It's not nice, and you might hate it, but as long as what they said isn't implicit in coercion or violence, I don't think anything should be done to actively restrain their freedom to say it. I think I said in the old thread, but if someone insults or degrades me, it may upset me, and it might not make me feel great, and I might dislike them for saying it, but I won't seek to control their liberties through my emotions.

Offense doesn't legitimise oppression of any kind, whether that's offense towards a person's homosexual nature, or whether it's offense towards what someone says about you. If someone dislikes me, it's well within their rights to say so, and it's my responsibility to accept that as their sovereignty over their actions; in the same way, if I dislike what they've said about me, it's well within my rights to counter it, and it's their responsibility to accept that I might do that as well.

I think repressing any kind of view is much more dangerous than allowing it to be expressed. If it's expressed, we can recognise and challenge it through intellectual debate, and the person has to deal with whatever social consequences arise from what they've done. Here, if someone is racist, people would look down on them, and they have to acknowledge that this is just as legitimate as their right to express racist views. Free speech doesn't protect you from criticism - it allows criticism to be said.

As I say, I respect your opinion to think differently. Your experiences and opinions are just as valid as mine, and equally as correct. The very fact that we can sit here and discuss something like this in such a way is testament to open-mindedness.

You may be right, and this may be an overly optimistic view of the world, but if we don't have optimism, how can we aspire towards anything better for ourselves and our future?
I don't think you should fight hate with hate, but as a gay person I don't understand how you (assuming you are gay too) can accept and respect the hate thrown at us.

This is giving me a headache. I wish I could say more but english isn't my first language so it's really hard to convey everything I feel about your huge post. This isn't going to be one of your little debates that you so love.
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Mar 8 2013, 02:16 AM
so we should just shut up and accept people hating us for what we are and we can't change? we shouldn't fight for equal rights and all that jazz?


I love you arti but...
No, we should. That's what I'm saying, lol. We should challenge their beliefs, and we should criticise them, and we should entreat them, and we should beg and protest and try to change their views to the best of our intellectual capability.

But we shouldn't force them.
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Mar 8 2013, 02:22 AM
I don't think you should fight hate with hate, but as a gay person I don't understand how you (assuming you are gay too) can accept and respect the hate thrown at us.

This is giving me a headache. I wish I could say more but english isn't my first language so it's really hard to convey everything I feel about your huge post. This isn't going to be one of your little debates that you so love.
I don't respect the hate, I respect their rights to express it. There's a difference.
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Ihla
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I love that you think the way you do as naive as it is. Not many people would be able to have a cool head when confronted in a negative way, keep it up for as long as you can, and as unrealistic as it is, I hope you won't ever have to encounter a truly hateful (not sure if right word) person.

It's easy to see that we won't be able to see eye to eye if we continue arguing about this, so I'll stop here. Also, I'm hungry and tired and will end up saying something really stupid.
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Naïve.
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Mar 8 2013, 02:28 AM
Naïve.
Naive is also correct.
Honest to goodnes. I looked it up.
Edited by Ihla, Mar 8 2013, 02:31 AM.
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Ihla
Mar 8 2013, 02:29 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 02:28 AM
Naïve.
Naive is also correct.
lol I wasn't correcting you. Saw your post after I posted and agree with everything you said because that's exactly what I was thinking. Naive.
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Ihla
Mar 8 2013, 02:27 AM
I love that you think the way you do as naive as it is. Not many people would be able to have a cool head when confronted in a negative way, keep it up for as long as you can, and as unrealistic as it is, I hope you won't ever have to encounter a truly hateful (not sure if right word) person.

It's easy to see that we won't be able to see eye to eye if we continue arguing about this, so I'll stop here. Also, I'm hungry and tired and will end up saying something really stupid.
Well, like I say, having your thoughts and opinions challenged is the best way to grow into a better person and refine your arguments into something that's more polished and makes more sense. Disagreement is a good thing, imo; it encourages tolerance of other people's views and helps you develop your own. I honestly think that you can only truly believe an idea if you've doubted it, and the only way to truly doubt what you believe is if you acknowledge criticisms and respect what the other person is saying (as a statement).

Oh, and I respect your right to agree to disagree with me. ;)
Make sure you enjoy yourself! I had McDonalds today lol lickylick
Edited by Artichoke, Mar 8 2013, 02:41 AM.
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Ihla
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Mar 8 2013, 02:32 AM
Ihla
Mar 8 2013, 02:29 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 02:28 AM
Naïve.
Naive is also correct.
lol I wasn't correcting you. Saw your post after I posted and agree with everything you said because that's exactly what I was thinking. Naive.
...oh.
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Oh, disgustingly delicious McDonals!
Now I will be craving it for the rest of the day.
:pain:
Edited by Ihla, Mar 8 2013, 02:39 AM.
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Mar 8 2013, 02:28 AM
Naïve.
Oh, I don't doubt that I am. Of all the things that there are to experience, I don't think I can count myself to have lived through even 1/1,000,000th of them, but, in a way, I think we all mirror that naivete. Just as I'm naive of what you've lived through, so are you naive of what I've lived through.

The only way to solve that is to address each other in this way and explain our views, so that we might acknowledge and incorporate them into our understanding. I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with being naive, as long as you seek to correct it at any opportunity that presents itself.
Edited by Artichoke, Mar 8 2013, 02:37 AM.
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Mar 8 2013, 02:35 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 02:32 AM
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Mar 8 2013, 02:29 AM

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lol I wasn't correcting you. Saw your post after I posted and agree with everything you said because that's exactly what I was thinking. Naive.
...oh.
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My bad, tho, for taking forever to type a word :hug:
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Ihla
Mar 8 2013, 02:35 AM
Oh, disgustingly delicious McDonals!
Now I will be craving it for the rest of the day.
:pain:
It was a Big Mac and McNuggets, too. Delicious. :thumbsup:
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