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Game of Thrones / Song of Ice and Fire; TV and Book discussion
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Topic Started: May 13 2013, 06:46 AM (1,230 Views)
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Spire
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May 13 2013, 06:46 AM
Post #1
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So yeah, if my babbling on about it in the cbox is anything to go by, I've been taken up by the Game of Thrones series.
So far I've finished the first book and am up to date with the TV series. I just love how immersive the story is, and how most the characters seem to be fairly balanced with their virtues and flaws. I'm a bit indifferent to their eagerness to remove their clothes to satisfy 13-year old creative consultant Friedburg, but there you have it.
Does anyone else follow the TV series or read the books?
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Shine
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May 13 2014, 06:33 PM
Post #11
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Whee, finally caught up~
Wow. Just wow. Dinklage et all were incredible in the courtroom scene - I loved it all, from Tywin's stoniness to Jaime's pleading to Tyrion's final 'I've-had-enough-of-this-shit' speech. The next few episodes have a lot to live up to, but after seeing what they've done with this season I'm confident that they can pull it off. The staging was great (and also in the Iron Bank scene, which I enjoyed. Surprise Mark Gatiss is always a bonus!)
I agree with you on Hizdahr - looks like the show is continuing in its agenda of making more characters seem sympathetic. Fair enough. Looking forward to seeing more of him and Daenerys in the future. Drogon was looking very pretty today as well!
A Dance with Dragons I'm a little iffy on the Yara/Theon scenes. At first I wasn't convinced at all; looking back on it I suppose it's not completely implausible, but still didn't seem to fit with some of later!Theon's actions in the books like escaping Winterfell with Jeyne Poole. In any case, I'm not sure I saw the necessity of the scene, although Yara was great in it.
I haven't heard the Euron/Daario theory before, actually! That one deserves some pondering.
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Spire
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May 19 2014, 02:51 AM
Post #12
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Mockingbird was a great episode.
Tyrion's scenes were all great, but Oberyn was the best of all. Tyrion being close to tears when Oberyn told of how he visited Casterly Rock and Cersei hated him ever since he was born, then the wordless gasp of joy when Oberyn said that he'd be his champion was touching.
Melisandre/Selyse was a bit gratuitous in fanservice unfortunately. But at least it sets up how Stannis's whole family is heading out of Dragonstone, especially considering what will happen to it next season.
The only thing I liked about Daenerys's scenes is the change from the book, where she'll try and take back Yunkai.
And then there's the Eyrie. They had Sansa build the Snow Winterfell, and almost everything from there was loyal to the book.
Except for the final words - they changed it to "Your Sister". While it means the same thing, just the words "Only Cat" were really a big moment in the book and they didn't need to change it. Oh well. Excellent finisher.
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Spire
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Jun 1 2014, 11:20 PM
Post #13
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My god. This freaking episode.
Viper and the Mountain Wilding attack on Molestown - Really cool start. Glad Ygritte spared Gilly, shows that they're not complete savages. And the buildup via the first kill really made it work. And the reaction at the wall was a nice clincher. They're like "Well, we're fucked, best drink up some mead"
Missandei/Grey Worm romance flick - Well, I like these two characters and I'm glad that they're expanding on them much more than in the books, particularly since they killed off Dany's dothraki handmaidens in Qarth. Went on a bit long but I hope they open up a bit more later on. That'd make Season 5 fairly interesting.
Reek taking Moat Cailin - Loved it. Reek was going well at trying to act like his old self, but the first sign of resistance from the Ironborn captain made him reduced to a nervous wreck. You could tell he was horrified that he failed Ramsay and he'd be punished.
Littlefinger's Trial - Absolutely fantastic. Bit OC, Sansa revealing her identity to the Vale lords, but she was absolutely fantastic with her testimony, all that built up anger and sadness about what she endured in King's Landing all this time. Baelish's smile was a bit of a heartwarming moment too.
And afterwards, Baelish talking to the Vale Lords about what they propose to do now shows his plans for the Vale grinding into motion. Lastly, Sansa's new outfit. Dayam.
Jorah's Banishment - Wow. I'll admit Emilia Clarke's been a bit hit-and-miss this season, sometimes with mediocre performances, but this was her best. She was furious, she didn't even want to make eye contact with Mormont. It might look a bit awkward, but I think it works when you realize that she might think that if she looks at him directly her resolve will break.
Ramsay Bolton - For a psychopath, him being pleased at being legitimized was still a pleasing scene. Now the Boltons are heading for Winterfell. Can't wait for that plotline to start.
Arya and the Hound at the Bloody Gate - I guess all Arya can do is laugh. Her last known living relative and chance of safety is dead. Poor girl. I hope she does actually run into Brienne and Pod on her way to Maidenpool.
Tyrion/Jaime in the cell - ugh. Why?! Terrible. Spent 5 minutes on a friggin monologue about cousin Orson and some beetles. Better would have been Tyrion's final conversation with Oberyn include a bit about inviting him to Dorne later, explaining the plot to crown Myrcella, thus kicking off the Dorne plot in season 5. But no. KUNK KUNK KUNK KUNK is apparently more appropriate here.
Oberyn vs. The Mountain - WOW. Loyal to the books almost word for word. I actually yelped at that ending. My god. Utterly brutal.
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Spire
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Jun 9 2014, 02:01 AM
Post #14
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My thoughts on this ep, it just felt off.
Confessions of a Team Dragonstone fan (ASOS/Show spoilers) Since listening to the audio books and now reading through Clash of Kings, I'll admit that I've become quite sympathetic to the storyline of Davos and Stannis.
Not only is he the true heir to the throne, but he's a very fleshed out character in the books. He watched his parents die, he, his wife and his loyal soldiers almost starved to death in the Siege of Storm's End that he refused to surrender for since that would mean his brother would have likely lost the war and was slighted off by losing lordship of the Stormlands in favour of a small chain of islands, he's fighting internal battles on what is justice and how far he should go in defending justice (even harder when he's got Davos and Melisandre's arguments to weigh out), and is the only one in Westeros that sails to the aid of the Night's Watch. And then there's the fact that Eddard Stark died for his claim and that set off all the awful things happening to the Stark children, so you kind of want to root for his victory over the atrocities of Joffrey and the Lannisters to at least mean that Eddard didn't die for nothing, but alas.
Of course he's flawed, since he facilitated of the use of shadow magic to kill his brother Renly, but that never stops troubling him, even in the 5th book, so it wasn't a decision he made lightly.
And even then there's an excellent dynamic with Davos and Melisandre, and her motives get even more interesting in ADWD with her own chapter, but that's another story for another time.
Now, the show has been dudding Stannis in many ways, simplifying his objectives, removing his positive points and just portraying him as a lesser character. First example was in S3E10 in the "Paper Shield" scene. In the books, he is about to carry out his sentencing Davos to death for releasing King Robert's bastard and saving him from Melisandre's sacrifice, but it is implied he spares him his fate by simply deciding that a truly just King would go to the aid of the Night's Watch and that Davos deserves to live for helping him realize that. In the show, Melisandre makes the decision for him, burning the letter and telling him Davos must live.
Second example, in S4E02. In the books, he has Alester Florent burned because Florent was planning behind his back to sue for peace with the Lannisters by having Shireen marry Tommen, and to get Stannis to renounce his claim to the throne and support the Lannisters. Not even Davos, ever the voice of reason that calls out his shit if he goes too far objects to this. In the show, he burns him for "being an infidel", and ignores Davos's objections, despite Florent being his brother-in-law. And after that he seems to have completely forgotten the thing about assisting the Night's Watch, brooding over how few soldiers he has and how he's running out of time to win the Iron Throne.
Davos defending him in Braavos sort of made up for it but really, it would be nice to see Stannis give off some clues about his character transition himself.
Now, how this is relevant to this episode, well, in the books, the Battle of Castle Black ended with the resolution of Stannis's knights charging the wildling army and saving the Night's Watch, in what is probably Stannis's finest hour, clinching the battle. In the show, they simply ended the episode with Jon Snow walking out to meet Mance Rayder. This means that Stannis will have to wait for the next episode.
Why that bothers me? Well, firstly, it means this episode just felt incomplete. It had no resolution, just a cliffhanger on top of the previous episode's cliffhanger of Tyrion getting sentenced to death, which is so out of character for GoT's episode 9's (Baelor, The Blackwater, The Red Wedding, etc). Secondly, it means that what should have been Stannis's finest moment will simply be another sidestory in an episode that clinches Tyrion's, Arya's and Bran's ASOS storylines, as well as throwing in a Daenerys scene and what looks like completely unneccessary Jaime/Cersei twincest scene, so that viewers of the show will simply go "Oh wow, Tyrion! Bran! Arya! Khaleesi! Oh and that thing at the wall too"
So to conclude, I'm annoyed that what is probably one of the most sympathetic characters won't have his new storyline introduced with the same explosively good entrance that he got in the books, in what seems like a recurring pattern of character sabotage by the show's writers. Especially when they wasted so much time these past couple of episodes on irrelevant garbage such as Grey Worm/Missandei's romance and Tyrion's Beetle Speech.
Whew, okay. I'm so sorry about that, but anyway, the episode.
Show good points Jon Snow was awesome. His 1v1 with Styr was excellent, and he even used some of Karl's tricks against him. Edd was excellent, Alliser Thorne was badass, Samwell Tarly was BRILLIANT. Honestly Book Samwell pissed me off so much, but seeing him man up like that gives me hope that Season 5 Samwell won't go on and on all the time about being craven.
And then there's the deaths. Sure only 4 named characters, but they all meant something. Poor Pyp, he didn't deserve that. Grenn went out like a boss. Ygritte, that hurt. And Jon smashing Styr with a hammer was unexpected but felt good.
Anyway, last of all, GIANTS! MAMMOTHS! BARREL BOMBS! Crossbows! Loved it!
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Shine
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Oct 7 2014, 04:22 PM
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Ahhh I finally got around to watching the last four episodes of season 4! Some comments/responses:
General end of S4 spoilers - Totally agreed re the Stannis at the Wall thing. That would have been such a great moment to finish of the episode, and without it the entire episode just seemed a bit... slow. Possibly because of all the plotlines I'm least interested in the stuff that happens at the Wall. But I was totally expecting a good thrilling climax with Stannis' triumphant arrival, and it was pretty disappointing not to see it get the attention it deserved. So many Big Things happened in the last episode that it really didn't need the Stannis bit as well :/ Ygritte's death was so sad though... I'm such a sucker for this kind of thing.
- Mountain and the Viper was... eeeeep. Seeing Ellaria's interactions with Oberyn before the fight and afterwards broke my heart. I admit I couldn't look for the last part but the sound was enough to give me nightmares.
- I used to think Emilia Clarke was alright, but I just find it difficult now to take her seriously :/ The Mormont scene was good though.
- I'm not actually that happy with the Brienne vs Hound thing, but possibly just because some part of me feels saddened by the waste. They were both on the same siiiiide D: I feel like if they'd just talked about it things wouldn't have escalated so far. The fight itself was pretty good, but I had to look away again at the end [/sopathetic]
- Am I the only one upset by Jojen's sudden death?
- WHAT NO TYSHA MENTION WTF
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Spire
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Oct 11 2014, 04:01 AM
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Yeah, the Brienne situation was startling. I was surprised by that, that they would make Brienne's story so dramatic and plot-changing like that, yet I'm kind of excited too that she might get much closer to the Starks than in the books.
Re-reading AFFC, her adventures with Septon Meribold and Nimble Dick and all that were kind of endearing and world-building, but slowed down the story and wouldn't really work well on TV. But that she's got so much closer to the Stark girls makes me think that she might even actually find Sansa next season, while they're touring around the Vale, and I can see that going about the same way, probably ending with a Brienne vs. Yohn Royce fight, wow, that'd be amazing.
Anyways, yeah, the thing with Jojen did suck. Poor kid.
But yeah, the thing I'm most excited about next season is Cersei. She was great in ep 10, doing the "fuck you, dad" scene. I'm really interested to see how the plot of the Mad Queen will sort out. I've been seeing all sorts of rumours pop up over the internet, including a flashback of Maggy the Frog. Since in the show there's probably not going to be as many characters for her to play around with, like I think they'll probably cut minors like Harys Swyft, Gyles Rosby, the Merryweathers, etc, and rely on other major characters to fill the blanks. I do hope they include the Kettleblacks though, they were fun.
Close runners up of interest of course is the stories of the 3 mains - Jon, Tyrion and Daenerys. Only of course I hope they go about them the right way. Jon's story felt like a course in management after Stannis left, Tyrion's was kind of bogged down with travel, although with Varys with him for snarking contests I could watch that all day, and Daenerys's courts got a little bit tiring, but with Show Hizdahr looking much better than the slimy arrogant snob he was in the books, that does look more exciting.
Oh yes, and I really really want to know if the Daario=Euron theory is true.
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Spire
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May 12 2015, 02:36 AM
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My take on the season as of the halfway point.
Spoiler: click to toggle - Daenerys's plotline is simply mutilated. While her story in aDwD was a bit tedious, things made sense. Terrible things were happening, and her instincts were that like a dragon's, to lash out at those attacking her, but she went against her nature and tried following her advisers. Yet her advisers all wanted different things. The Shavepate and Daario recommended brutality, Reznak and Hizdahr wanted tradition, and Ser Barristan gave her advice from his experiences in the Kingsguard for around 50 years. Instead the show kills Barristan like a bitch (has him walk unarmoured, lightly armed, randomly into an ambush by a Sons of the Harpy gang, wastes time on a boring, irrelevant romance between Missandei and Grey Worm, and has Daenerys go full Aerys and just throws a nobleman to her dragons despite Barristan warning her just an episode ago. Oh and she throws Hizdahr to the dungeons and then randomly comes back to say she'll marry him. Not even with a mention of the vital 90 days of peace she wants in return. I was disgusted by how the showrunners treated Ian McElhinney (Barristan's actor). He's an avid reader of the books and was devastated when they changed the show to kill Barristan off. And they bragged that when he came to them to ask them to reconsider this, it only made them want to kill him off more and laughed about it. Oh, and somehow there's no conflict with Yunkai. While I'm sort of glad of this, as the scenes in Astapor (when Quentyn Martell goes there) were some of the most horrifying reading I've ever had, it just stagnates her story. Anyway, good points. I tried to think of something but I can't right now. - King's Landing is just disgusting. Cersei's chapters were my favourite parts of AFFC, her getting mad with power, making decisions that on paper seem clever in her aims to destroy Margaery Tyrell and secure herself as Tommen's power figure. Impediments were dealt with in a reasonable (in her eyes) way, such as arming the faith militant to have them forgive the Crown's debt, and she soon became so proud of herself that she started making mistakes that all caved in on her at once. Now, the authors seem to be just simplifying it down to having Cersei just go "Okay, sure, I'll appoint you High Sparrow and set your homophobic terrorist Westeros Baptist Church followers loose in King's Landing free of charge. By the way, the Queen's brother is a fudge packer ~" and grins as the Faith Militant go straight for Loras (who in this adaptation is just a gay stereotype, nowhere near the brave badass but hotheaded Kingsguard that subtly had an offscreen love with Renly that he is in the books). And we're supposed to watch and somehow believe that the Faith Militant can waltz through the castle unhindered all the way to the training courtyard, and promptly arrest the Heir of Highgarden and Queen Margaery's brother (who is the real Queen now, she consummated her marriage with Tommen) with about a dozen armed knights watching without moving a muscle. And I expect we'll get the trial next week, where Loras will undoubtedly be brutally punished as a sort of social statement for the plights of homosexuals in modern times, with Olyvar the OC raised to main character status instead of interesting characters like the Kettleblacks. I mean, I'm all on board with fighting homophobia, but it has no place in this show. It sours it. And the way they've been handling Loras is just hamfisted and disrespectful. It'd be like if I randomly had the Empire's primary reason for trying to hunt down Jaelin and execute him is for being gay, and changed it so that he's just a mincing ponce instead of a Recon Captain. Probably not just like that, but it's how wrong it feels. Oh, and their mutilation of Mace Tyrell is a travesty too. He's the Warden of the South and Lord of Highgarden and Cersei treats him like a bitch. Oh yes it's so believable that he'll happily go all the way to Braavos with only a Lannister appointed guard just because he was made Master of Coin. If Mace in the books was treated like Cersei treated him in the show, he'd fill King's Landing with a Tyrell host and have Randyll Tarly drag Cersei by her hair back to Casterly Rock. Yes, we know that Olenna is the real threat behind House Tyrell, but Mace is not a complete fool. Anyway, good points. Qyburn and Kevan Lannister. Both are magnificent. And I admit I laughed at Olyvar in the brothel with the High Septon. Also I like Margaery and Tommen, but Cersei was way out of character when she said "Well go ask the High Sparrow to release Loras yourself then". I mean holy shit, she's supposed to be terrified of Maggy's prophecy and having her children die, just letting Tommen go alone with just his Kingsguard into a volatile situation like that is just asking for trouble. And Margaery should've gone with him if she's so desperate to get Loras out of there. - Winterfell is just ridiculous. Littlefinger's plan is just so bad, and Sansa's just fucking it up. It could go well, but all I'm expecting is that her getting married to Ramsay will just be like a Joffrey 2.0 with a shocking rape scene. If she pulls off a Margaery and actually somehow manipulates Ramsay into doing her bidding, I would be impressed. That's what I would do with her storyline. Ramsay seems to be serious about being Roose's legitimized heir, so if Sansa plays into this and is like "Our son will be the undisputed ruler of the North. Bolton and Stark" and furthermore sets him loose on Roose (lulz) as revenge for him killing Robb and the Northern Army so Ramsay becomes Lord... then Sansa does to him what Cersei did to Robert after they have children, well, may I say a job well done, Sansa. Or even better, plot the "Black Wedding", where during Ramsay and Sansa's wedding night, Sansa arranges the death of the Boltons and their supporters. Although that's far less likely with Littlefinger flying off to King's Landing in his jetpack, so it seems either Sansa's gonna be a maiden no more next week, or there'll otherwise be a serious break of character for Ramsay. But with these writers, all I'm expecting is torture, rape (or attempted rape), torment from OC sex object Myranda, and Theon and Brienne rescuing Sansa from her peril. Oh yeah, by the way, Brienne and Pod are just outside Winterfell now. I suppose it's sort of better than them chasing shadows around the Riverlands, but... eh, I dunno. But I will say the Boltons are played magnificently. And Littlefinger, well, he has two better plans instead of handing Sansa to the Boltons then pissing off to King's Landing, thus abandoning his only two keys of power to unknown fates (Sansa and Robin Arryn). One is to simply sail to Eastwatch, present Sansa to Stannis and pledge the fealty of the Knights of the Vale while Sansa rallies the North to Stannis's aid (if Baelish is so sure of him winning). And the second plan is to simply... stay in the Vale and see who wins the Battle of Winterfell? God it's not that hard. Who cares if nobody's seen Jeyne Poole since season 1, just cut out a bit of filler and spend it making her Fake Arya plot sympathetic and believable. Honestly, all it takes is a Bolton sympathizer in the North to go send a raven to King's Landing saying "Yo, Cersei, LF just smuggled the girl suspected of killing Joff to Winterfell and married her to Ramsay #zomgplottwist #chaosisaladdah" and Cersei will have his head mounted on a spike the moment he enters Kings Landing faster than he can say "Only Cat", which he didn't. Oh and when the Vale finds out Baelish gave Sansa to the people that murdered her family, Robin Arryn would throw him out the moon door himself. ...Oh yeah. And I was actually yelling at the screen "Don't do it Sansa!" when Myranda just randomly walks up to her and tells her to go into the dark scary kennels full of mad barking killer dogs for a "surprise". It could have very easily been a room where Ramsay suddenly lights up a torch, gives her a slasher smile, reveals a flaying rack and says "Hello, Sansa, we're going to have lots of fun today", and turns her into Reek II. Turned out to just be Reek I, but goddamn, Sansa, so stupid. It is also extremely stupid to be a passive-aggressive pouty brat at the table with the man that stabbed your brother in the heart and your fiancee whose first scene this season was to casually flay Lord and Lady Cerwyn for not pledging fealty to the Boltons and hang their skinless bodies for display. Jesus christ. Keep it up, Sansa, and you're going to end up like Lady Hornwood, locked in a tower and left to starve to death so that Ramsay can claim your lands. - I like almost everything about the plot at The Wall except for the OC Creator's Pet Olly. Jon Snow is much better played this season, I cheered when he dealt with Janos Slynt, but really wish they kept it like it was in the book, that would have just been perfect. Jon letting him dig his own grave, giving him opportunity after opportunity to back out and just follow his command, before finally ordering him to be hanged. Then when Janos drops the act and starts begging for mercy, Jon halts the execution, hesitates, and says simply "Edd, fetch me a block" and executes him like a Northman. Bam. Perfect television. But no, we have a rushed "Olly, fetch me my sword" and straight to the chopping block. And the nod from Stannis was a bit too subtle in my opinion. Anyway, Stannis and his family are wonderful characters so far, except for Selyse who needs to turn down the bitch a little. Davos and Shireen are cute, and their interactions with characters around the wall are great. Only they stuffed up Melisandre's subtle conversation with Jon Snow with gratuitous nudity, making that scene damn awkward. Ah, and in a change from the books, Shireen, Selyse, Melisandre and Davos are marching with Stannis to Winterfell. Okay, gotta wait to see how that goes. Also, Olly needs to die. I hope he's the one ripped up by Wun-Wun that causes the "For the Watch" scene to start, but I just know that he's going to be the one to start the stabbing. - Braavos and Dorne, I haven't seen enough of for a proper opinion, but Jaime and Bronn's adventures there are ridiculous and the Sand Snakes are the worst. Arya's story in Braavos is good though. The scene with Needle is beautiful. Even if this fucking hack has no idea what it's meant to be - Tyrion's journey... I'm pretty mixed about it. I like it, of course. I guess cutting Jon Connington and Aegon sort of works out in the end if they want to hurry that along. Oh, and Penny too, that makes it a bit better. Disappointed with what they did with Valyria. And lastly Jorah Mormont's pretty good too, but I don't like him getting greyscale.
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Spire
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Jun 8 2015, 06:11 AM
Post #18
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Was going to save my full review until the end of the season. I'll just say that tonight's episode WAS NOT OKAY.
The writers are fucking horrible talentless hacks. They just don't get it. Yet they sit there smugly adoring the smell of their own farts as they destroy this story.
Urgh. Disgusting. Oh and Dorne was a waste of time.
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Spire
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Jun 11 2015, 09:15 AM
Post #19
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Oh well. Found this the other day, it amused me. Should tickle bookreaders too.
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