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Nobel Prize 2012; wild speculations
Topic Started: Aug 4 2012, 09:37 AM (15,925 Views)
Bjorn
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suzannahhh
Oct 12 2012, 12:18 PM
so what do you EU peeps
think about your Peace Prize?????
I think it's ultimate proof that Nobel's decision to let the Norwegians handle the Nobel Peace Prize makes him one of the most epic trolls in history.
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I actually like the decision. I know that repeatedly people have been in the running who were responsible for bringing the eu about, especially certain odious german politicians and occasionally French ones etc., but yeah.
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oneofmurphysbiscuits
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I'm very pro the EU, and why not, Obama won it the Nobel in essence for not being Bush, after all. :) I can't say that i've unreseserved admiration for those currently in etc etc, and what's horribly confusing and regrettable - at the level of the personal - is that i can see the opportunism at work when the UK gets a bashing - but it doesn't mean that the impulse to or the opportunism is wrong, and in just the same way i want to say "Hang on a minute, that's not me you're talking about" Thus i feel genuine sadness at UK failures, because insofar as there are things that i love about the UK i want more for it, as an old fashioned internationalist i suppose, but one who's more than a bit skeptical, disaffected at present.

Excuse post beer blather
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Heteronym
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I'd like, if possible, to return, being a EU citizen, whatever slim sliver of the prize attributed to me. At a time when the EU is violently and dangerously split in the middle between a South ravaged by draconian austerity measures and an indifferent North, when general dissatisfaction is manifested by daily protests all over Europe, when living standards are declining, when it's becoming obvious today's young people are going to have worse and less certain lives than their parents had, when unemployment is systemic, the last thing the EU needs is a peace prize to validate its sinister policies and allow it to pat itself on the back for a job well done, as I've already seen several politicians do since yesterday.

I don't know what concept of peace Norway has, but there is no social peace in Europe right now. Unless the Norwegians think peace involves brutal police charges against peaceful protesters and crying gas thrown into thick crowds. Norway lives in a periodical state of severe dementia. It rears its ugly head once in a while and then goes into remission. But when you least expect it, it strikes again and Henry Kissinger, Arafat, Obama and now the EU receive a peace prize.
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johnnywalkitoff
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It seems like the Nobel Peace Prize-as opposed to all the other actual achievement-based prizes- is often used as a "we think you might be a bringer of peace" instead of a "you have brought peace;" Obama getting one is ridiculous and strikes me as condescending (at that point, shouldn't he have felt insulted..."why exactly am I getting this?"); the Eu getting one just seems weird, it's in a period of crisis, is it not? Does the Nobel Peace Prize take upon itself the role of pre-motivator or some sort of objective reward?
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nnyhav
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http://mhpbooks.com/mo-yan-my-ass-and-other-nobel-reactions-a-round-up/
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johnnywalkitoff
Oct 13 2012, 05:10 PM
,a "we think you might be a bringer of peace" instead of a "you have brought peace;"
dude, you realize that this is a "you have brought peace" award. in fact it specifically cites the fact that for the first time ever not only there has been 60+ years of peace in Europe, but also France and Germany, two nations perennially at war with each other (in German, for centuries, France was referred to as "der Erbfeind" - the hereditary foe), are now allies in strategic and economic terms. The EU has brought peace to the continent that brought forth two world wars.
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Yes, when I first heard of the award for the EU I thought wow now they have gone bonkers finally, but no, actually it makes good sense and only because not all things are running well, one should not underestimate the achievements of the EU.

It is a unique project in the history of humankind, right? Think about it, most of these countries were at war constantly in the past. Now we have had 70 years of peace, that is amazing. And talking about the south, just go back some decades and you will find dictatorships all over the place, Portugal, Spain, Greece etc. At that time you would have been shot if you protested against the government. It does not help to overtly simplify a discussion like the tabloids do, I mean, children worse off than their parents, Jeez, not that this is the fault of the EU in any case... It is easy to blame them...

I mean, look at Hungary, you know what would happen to this country right now if it weren't for the EU? It would completely drift off into the authoritarian, fascistic direction. You think anyone in the former Yugoslavian states would have started persecuting war criminals if this had not been a prerequisite for a EU membership?
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oneofmurphysbiscuits
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Yes, it's too easy to blame them, the timing may be bonkers, but the ideal is not. I'll not say anything besides as to the eurozone/eu and the conflation thereof, because i don't want to be misrepresented as some northern European bad guy. But i agree.
Edited by oneofmurphysbiscuits, Oct 14 2012, 04:03 AM.
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Heteronym
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BirneHelene
Oct 14 2012, 03:40 AM
It does not help to overtly simplify a discussion like the tabloids do, I mean, children worse off than their parents, Jeez, not that this is the fault of the EU in any case... It is easy to blame them...
Portugal was experiencing economic growth before it joined the EU in the mid '80s; since then its growth not only has fizzled, it has declined vertiginously. The current problems Portugal has is, in part, due to the shared euro currency, which doesn't function like any other currency in the world. How did the USA survive so long, with its growing debt? By printing money; Portugal can't do the same, it can't devalue its currency, it's handcuffed to the euro and is plunging into the abyss.

The EU is teetering on the brink of disintegration. So far it's Portugal, Greece, Ireland and Italy having difficulties. Soon it's going to hit Spain and France with full force. There are already rumors of Belgium, Holland and Malta to be the next ones to ask for a bail out. That's too many countries fucking up. This isn't just a problem of the South, it never was, it's a systemic problem inherent to the structure of the EU, which is predicated on savage, casino capitalism that ruins everything. And since it's a joint economy, Germany won't be immune to the effects of the recession in these countries. What the German banks have already lost since the crisis stared could have paid the Greek debt. Hollande and Merkel can kiss for the camera as much as they want, that doesn't hide the fact that the sense of union amongst the citizens of the EU is cracking and the pet hatreds are just waiting to resurface.
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Canox
Oct 13 2012, 06:40 PM
in fact it specifically cites the fact that for the first time ever not only there has been 60+ years of peace in Europe,
The Balkan Wars happened 60+ years ago?
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You mean Portugal had 10 years of relative prosperity after the country was crippled after decades of abuse? A true marvel... and then the evil EU came and destroyed the country finally? Are you serious about such things?? Btw, please make the effort to check the numbers, what you are claiming is just untrue.

Yes there are cracks visible under economic strain, surprise, surprise, more important than ever to recognize the stabilizing properties of such a union. Don't you think?
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Heteronym
Oct 14 2012, 06:49 AM
Canox
Oct 13 2012, 06:40 PM
in fact it specifically cites the fact that for the first time ever not only there has been 60+ years of peace in Europe,
The Balkan Wars happened 60+ years ago?
now we are getting silly, aren't we?
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mandm
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Peace, guys, peace/
.
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BirneHelene
Oct 14 2012, 07:29 AM
You mean Portugal had 10 years of relative prosperity after the country was crippled after decades of abuse? A true marvel... and then the evil EU came and destroyed the country finally? Are you serious about such things?? Btw, please make the effort to check the numbers, what you are claiming is just untrue.

Yes there are cracks visible under economic strain, surprise, surprise, more important than ever to recognize the stabilizing properties of such a union. Don't you think?
No, I don't think that at all. I don't see any stabilization, I see indifference, I see arrogance, I see posturing and empty speeches and crocodile tears, I see diktats. Portugal was doing very well before it joined the EU, and when it became a member it immediately had to abide by production quotas whose limits led to the destruction of much of its fishing and agricultural industries, which used to be two of its best resources. Before it joined the euro, many analysts and politicians warned that a common currency would ruin the Portuguese economy, and that's what we're seeing. This was predicted a long time ago, and no one paid attention because a bunch of self-serving politicians sold the idea that joining the EU was going to usher the country in a golden age, which it was already experiencing prior to the EU.

I'm a Euro-skeptic, and more, I'm strongly in favour of its destruction. The EU is more social engineering in the moulds of the old Soviet Russia - bureaucrats getting involved in every aspect of human life. It's not a union ruled by ethics, transparency, or social progress. It's a giant market to transact goods, services and human labour, for the enrichment of a small class. The rest is just window-dressing. The fact that Germany imports cheaper products from totalitarian countries like Afghanistan and China, which have no labour and safety regulations, instead of costlier ones from EU members, says everything to me. Profits over people. You speak of economic strain, but I don't remember an alternative offered by the EU to savage capitalism, to globalization. I don't see the EU attacking off-shore accounts, the stock exchange system, flexicurity, temporary work agencies, precarious jobs and delocalisation. If the EU has its way, working and living conditions will be what they were in the mid-19th century.

And please, don't assume I'm just resentful because it's Portugal under the grinder. Why don't most countries set referendums in important EU questions? Because they know the people would vote no most of the time, people aren't stupid. How many times was the Lisbon Treaty vetoed? Once by the French and Dutch voters, a second time by the Irish. How many times has anyone asked your vote on anything relating to the EU? Why doesn't the British government make a referendum asking if the UK wants out of the EU? Because it knows it'd probably get a positive response. The EU is terribly afraid of listening to its citizens and prefers to make decisions from a safe distance. That says a lot about the spirit of the union and its true goals.
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Heteronym
Oct 14 2012, 02:48 PM
people aren't stupid.
I would suggest the opposite is true and is the reason why there are not more referendums. A good reason, too. I approve.
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mandm
Oct 14 2012, 08:17 AM
Peace, guys, peace/
.
ok.

I am not a friend of pup level discussions anyway, where facts and opinions and biases and untruths are mixed inseparably. Although, I think that for completeness one should mention maybe that Portugal's economy was prospering until the mid/end-of 90s, i.e. for more than a decade after becoming EU member. I just cross-checked a few papers on the topic and they confirm this. None of these mention any sinister EU forces as responsible for the decline after 2000 btw, but (as so often in real life) various sources are made out. Some of them originated in Portugal itself, some of them in the EU, some of them having to do with developments outside of the EU at the time.

In any case, the award is called "Nobel Peace Prize" and not "Nobel economic growth prize", and I think it will be hard to dismiss the claim that the EU was quite relevant for maintaining the period of piece after WW2.

So now. Let us enjoy the last few hours of the weekend, if we can. I will have a beer, a Czech one to accompany my reading of today :)
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BirneHelene
Oct 14 2012, 03:38 PM

I am not a friend of pup level discussions anyway
Again, I disagree. I'm all for pup level discussions

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Canox
Oct 14 2012, 03:42 PM
BirneHelene
Oct 14 2012, 03:38 PM

I am not a friend of pup level discussions anyway
Again, I disagree. I'm all for pup level discussions
ok, but only if there is some kind of alcohol involved ;)
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BirneHelene
Oct 14 2012, 03:49 PM
Canox
Oct 14 2012, 03:42 PM
BirneHelene
Oct 14 2012, 03:38 PM

I am not a friend of pup level discussions anyway
Again, I disagree. I'm all for pup level discussions
ok, but only if there is some kind of alcohol involved ;)
Oh you know me, there is always some kind of alcohol involved.
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