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Event: Bring Your Own Modern
Topic Started: Feb 28 2014, 10:58 AM (3,069 Views)
JoseG
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TheCapedCrusader
Mar 21 2014, 09:24 PM
JoseG
Mar 21 2014, 09:23 PM
I dont know why this thread has a torches and forks vibe in it. :)
Salem Witch Trials all over again....lmao
^^ one like for this post [coolguy]
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OnyxWeapon
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so obv the organiser likes targetting effects. since they banned most of the popular triggered/activated effect counters. This is suspicious to me.

At BEST, wonderwoman is situational. many attacking effects can't be redirected outside of a team attack, often the player using her is forced to add an effect to the chain just to allow her legal redirect targets. She is also easy to bait with re-usable targetting character effects forcing down her controllers hand size and limiting her use or they risk missing a curve drop. Even sinister and lex tended to arrive too late to stop a decent stall. and could be easiliy countered with the standard splashable spider-tech we saw at worlds.

the only real reason i can think of her being banned is if the organiser wants to be able to run a very specific deck relying on targetting effects. In a bring your own modern, I'm thinking both guns, new school, a doom stall variant, or any number of older control builds that saw success before PA arrived. However if that is the case you missed a few cards that i feel do more work against these decks than wonder woman does and are very effective counters to many of your additional bans themselves:

leech, inhibitor
Spider-girl
Spider-Man, Secret Avenger
Only Human
ultimate nullifier, one way trip
utility Belt

The best of these are obviously leech, spider-girl, and spider man. But the others warrant mention. it is especially curious that we also see lex and sinister banned, when it is already established, that spider-girl, spider man, and only human are better fits for most decks and hard-counter these card choices.

To summarize, for a long long time i've been an advocate for the "wonder woman has a place!" club. but in application the costs tend to be far too high to make her a real asset. More often she only catches the unprepared player with a clutch play and will have almost no opportunities to see use against a talented player.

The fact she's a 4 drop actually works against her as well. Most curves will punish a build overprotecting her and she tends to leave play by 5 without having done much to contribute. I'm surprised More wasn't done to ensure brotherhood beats don't auto-win AGAIN.
Edited by OnyxWeapon, Mar 22 2014, 04:26 AM.
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blues686
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OnyxWeapon
Mar 22 2014, 04:15 AM
so obv the organiser likes targetting effects. since they banned most of the popular triggered/activated effect counters. This is suspicious to me.

At BEST, wonderwoman is situational. many attacking effects can't be redirected outside of a team attack, often the player using her is forced to add an effect to the chain just to allow her legal redirect targets. She is also easy to bait with re-usable targetting character effects forcing down her controllers hand size and limiting her use or they risk missing a curve drop. Even sinister and lex tended to arrive too late to stop a decent stall. and could be easiliy countered with the standard splashable spider-tech we saw at worlds.

the only real reason i can think of her being banned is if the organiser wants to be able to run a very specific deck relying on targetting effects. In a bring your own modern, I'm thinking both guns, new school, a doom stall variant, or any number of older control builds that saw success before PA arrived. However if that is the case you missed a few cards that i feel do more work against these decks than wonder woman does and are very effective counters to many of your additional bans themselves:

leech, inhibitor
Spider-girl
Spider-Man, Secret Avenger
Only Human
ultimate nullifier, one way trip
utility Belt

The best of these are obviously leech, spider-girl, and spider man. But the others warrant mention. it is especially curious that we also see lex and sinister banned, when it is already established, that spider-girl, spider man, and only human are better fits for most decks and hard-counter these card choices.

To summarize, for a long long time i've been an advocate for the "wonder woman has a place!" club. but in application the costs tend to be far too high to make her a real asset. More often she only catches the unprepared player with a clutch play and will have almost no opportunities to see use against a talented player.

The fact she's a 4 drop actually works against her as well. Most curves will punish a build overprotecting her and she tends to leave play by 5 without having done much to contribute. I'm surprised More wasn't done to ensure brotherhood beats don't auto-win AGAIN.
:) you couldn't have said it any better .. My points and concerns exactly
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RavenPro
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The organizer is in know way trying to make sure he gets to play a certain deck and gets an easy win. He's trying to have a fun, fair and different format. If Wonder Woman, Luther and Sinister are available it's going to force everyone to play current modern or lose. In which case it's the same old crap. With those cards gone it leaves a much fairer playing field and will hopefully allow us to see a much bigger variety of decks.

Truth be told and with out trying to sound like a jerk, If you don't like that there banned don't come.
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blues686
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RavenPro
Mar 22 2014, 05:16 AM
The organizer is in know way trying to make sure he gets to play a certain deck and gets an easy win. He's trying to have a fun, fair and different format. If Wonder Woman, Luther and Sinister are available it's going to force everyone to play current modern or lose. In which case it's the same old crap. With those cards gone it leaves a much fairer playing field and will hopefully allow us to see a much bigger variety of decks.

Truth be told and with out trying to sound like a jerk, If you don't like that there banned don't come.
Wow, funny you say that. Well just a heads up..my choice of words are from the majority of the NYC group since they don't post or have accounts ( we are discussing this topic heavily on Facebook ). Only 2 of the group are still possibly going (out of the 8 players that are active in the play group. ) That's a big drop off. Your potential numbers from out of towners and the northern nj players will be low to none at all (which is leaning towards the latter). none of the NYC group is really liking the rediculous bannings. Onyx post is basically the whole nyc group feelings on the matter. So expect a low turn out for your event if nothing changes. as it goes only your local and possibly the Baltimore Crew ( if they are going) which is like 5 players will be going. The NYC group probably will save the trip and host an event (currently in discussion) instead locally or in Baltimore like last time since it was a great experience for the group.
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RavenPro
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It's quite obvious that you are planning on playing these cards otherwise you wouldn't care if they were banned. The whole point of this is to see a diversity of different decks. Which these cards will not allow.

You guys are saying that the organizer must want to play a deck that targets and that's why he wants to ban ww. A lot of decks target. Which is why she should be banned AI that people won't have to either play her or build around her. She limits the viable decks.
Edited by RavenPro, Mar 22 2014, 08:08 AM.
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Wallywest1988
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I like how the defense of her in this format is she just "helps" in the match-ups she is relavent in. lol. Lets just be real, she just wins you those match-ups single handedly, seems pretty fun and fair obviously.

Just to be clear. Although this card was a little unbalanced. I have no issue with it on any normal format. Where her answers are available. I actually find her pretty average to terrible in most formats. Lets just let everything be legal and all play modern age. yay...
Edited by Wallywest1988, Mar 22 2014, 08:16 AM.
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TheCapedCrusader
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RavenPro
Mar 22 2014, 08:00 AM
It's quite obvious that you are planning on playing these cards otherwise you wouldn't care if they were banned. The whole point of this is to see a diversity of different decks. Which these cards will not allow.

You guys are saying that the organizer must want to play a deck that targets and that's why he wants to ban ww. A lot of decks target. Which is why she should be banned AI that people won't have to either play her or build around her. She limits the viable decks.
The other people in our group which is 6 other vs players don't even play WW as a matter of fact they hate the card and even they are against the banning... and we can say the same as well its obvi you guys are planning on playing some child lock, or equipment burn or roy harper variant which is the only decks she can truly hinder.

And according to the rules this is a 4 consective set tourny, So its not like people can just build any deck and tech in WW you have to play around her set and build a deck which more than likely is trinity. .. and trinity is not some unbeatable deck warbound spanks trinity, doom clone spanks trinity, as well as spidey clones... so putting her on the same level as MCG cards im just not understanding.

None of this banning WW stuff came into play until the topic of redirecting equips was talked about, so yeah lol
Edited by TheCapedCrusader, Mar 22 2014, 10:09 AM.
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TheCapedCrusader
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And my final statement

Have you guys ever played with a trinity deck?

Like WW in a deck were you draw massive amount of cards sure shes broken... but in trinity with 3 drop bats dropping characters from ur hand, the hook up u tossing away ur characters for that, 6 drop bats discarding a character for his effect, searches you have to discard a card... its not like u can go nuts with WW and just discard cards willy nilly lol most of the times you end up discarding PT, some you might need. You have to pick and choose what you redirect, because your not trying to give up complete hand control. And don't say well you have Oracle because then you give up replacing resources with bats ... so its a tit for tat... draw more to enhance ww effect but giving up resource hate, or playing bats nd under utilizing WW...

Bottom line the only people who are pushing this ban are possibly the people who affected by her the most...

If u just attack her, stun her, then do your effects that your so afraid that would get redirected. You should be fine. .. right?

And side note this turned from a statement into a question yes I just noticed now lol
Edited by TheCapedCrusader, Mar 22 2014, 10:30 AM.
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OMB
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OnyxWeapon
Mar 22 2014, 04:15 AM
the only real reason i can think of her being banned is if the organiser wants to be able to run a very specific deck relying on targetting effects. In a bring your own modern, I'm thinking both guns, new school, a doom stall variant, or any number of older control builds that saw success before PA arrived. However if that is the case you missed a few cards that i feel do more work against these decks than wonder woman does and are very effective counters to many of your additional bans themselves:

leech, inhibitor
Spider-girl
Spider-Man, Secret Avenger
Only Human
ultimate nullifier, one way trip
utility Belt

The best of these are obviously leech, spider-girl, and spider man. But the others warrant mention. it is especially curious that we also see lex and sinister banned, when it is already established, that spider-girl, spider man, and only human are better fits for most decks and hard-counter these card choices.
Onyx, I agree with you that WW is relatively useless against an aggro deck, but you also basically laid out the case of why she is problematic.

Though you mentioned Both Guns and New School (neither of which is modern legal since they run a Midnight Sons engine but rely on MOR cards making them span 5 sets minimum) the idea is that she renders older control decks that are not running tech cards from MVL or MUN virtually unplayable. When you eliminate a huge portion of an entire deck archetype that is the definition of a format warping card. I feel like the whole point of BYOM is to encourage people to bust out some of the classics. If we all just wanted to run MVL and MUN cards it would just be a modern age tournament.

To all the people who are butthurt about the ban who weren't even planning on running WW what is the problem? All the NY people threw a s***fit when we talked about banning PA in the dual legend tourney in Bmore (oh the horrors of the IG burn deck that no one played) and then I'm not sure anyone ended up even running the card. I'm not positive because I had to go to a wedding the day of the tourney. The whole "I'm taking my ball and going home" act is weak. Step out of your comfort zone and embrace a challenge. Doom Clones isn't a thing in BYOM and Spidey clones is quasi possible if you think you're going to be able to hit multiple Clashes every game (or you're running Ben Riley and can't play Sensational, Indebted, Mobilize, or Gift Wrapped... Best of luck on that).

And as for the shot about Brotherhood beats "auto-winning" anything I encourage you to look through the tourney breakdowns that these playgroups have had. Nothing Brotherhood related has even sniffed paydirt. In BYOTT there were several Lost City decks, but Sentinel/Shield crushed the field. As for Random Punks in NYC my buddies are still waiting on those Starbucks gift cards as they piloted Marauders and a Doom/F5 stall deck (with Aquaman wincon) through a field of aggro and swarm to the finals.
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blues686
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Lol have fun at your tourney while we will have fun in ours .. #nuff said
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TheCapedCrusader
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OMB
Mar 22 2014, 12:55 PM
OnyxWeapon
Mar 22 2014, 04:15 AM
the only real reason i can think of her being banned is if the organiser wants to be able to run a very specific deck relying on targetting effects. In a bring your own modern, I'm thinking both guns, new school, a doom stall variant, or any number of older control builds that saw success before PA arrived. However if that is the case you missed a few cards that i feel do more work against these decks than wonder woman does and are very effective counters to many of your additional bans themselves:

leech, inhibitor
Spider-girl
Spider-Man, Secret Avenger
Only Human
ultimate nullifier, one way trip
utility Belt

The best of these are obviously leech, spider-girl, and spider man. But the others warrant mention. it is especially curious that we also see lex and sinister banned, when it is already established, that spider-girl, spider man, and only human are better fits for most decks and hard-counter these card choices.
Onyx, I agree with you that WW is relatively useless against an aggro deck, but you also basically laid out the case of why she is problematic.

Though you mentioned Both Guns and New School (neither of which is modern legal since they run a Midnight Sons engine but rely on MOR cards making them span 5 sets minimum) the idea is that she renders older control decks that are not running tech cards from MVL or MUN virtually unplayable. When you eliminate a huge portion of an entire deck archetype that is the definition of a format warping card. I feel like the whole point of BYOM is to encourage people to bust out some of the classics. If we all just wanted to run MVL and MUN cards it would just be a modern age tournament.

To all the people who are butthurt about the ban who weren't even planning on running WW what is the problem? All the NY people threw a s***fit when we talked about banning PA in the dual legend tourney in Bmore (oh the horrors of the IG burn deck that no one played) and then I'm not sure anyone ended up even running the card. I'm not positive because I had to go to a wedding the day of the tourney. The whole "I'm taking my ball and going home" act is weak. Step out of your comfort zone and embrace a challenge. Doom Clones isn't a thing in BYOM and Spidey clones is quasi possible if you think you're going to be able to hit multiple Clashes every game (or you're running Ben Riley and can't play Sensational, Indebted, Mobilize, or Gift Wrapped... Best of luck on that).

And as for the shot about Brotherhood beats "auto-winning" anything I encourage you to look through the tourney breakdowns that these playgroups have had. Nothing Brotherhood related has even sniffed paydirt. In BYOTT there were several Lost City decks, but Sentinel/Shield crushed the field. As for Random Punks in NYC my buddies are still waiting on those Starbucks gift cards as they piloted Marauders and a Doom/F5 stall deck (with Aquaman wincon) through a field of aggro and swarm to the finals.
I was the first one to admit if I couldn't acquire a deck in time I was just gonna modify my trinity nd play that. So im not butt hurt... Now with that said if the main goal of this tourny is to see the earlier day control decks flourish then why not off the back make this some kind of golden age tourny... why flirt with the idea of oh we can have most of the broken decks from golden... modern is still allowed to have there beast mode decks ( I.e. shield, Hulk, FF, etc )

And I agree with you 100% about the last tourny of how people wanted cards in the bmore tourny and didnt even show up.. I wasnt one of them I could careless about PA & Omni being banned I dont like them to much anyways.

My main prob is not the fact that shes banned but it seems like were a certain card is being hit because it disrupts particular decks that he does not want to get hit... cause for as many decks as you say she disrupts I can name just as much she doesnt

But if you guys wanna have a tourny were everyone runs a burn deck then be my guest

Have fun

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Casper
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I predict a Fate artifact deck to win.
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TheCapedCrusader
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If you had a poll of confirmed ppl going I.E. ppl who have alrdy given money to participate in the tourny and not ppl who are not planning on going but just wanna give insight then you would have no argument from me

But this dictatorship rule of oh this is banned cause... "uh uh uh I said so hmph! "

Not cool lol
Edited by TheCapedCrusader, Mar 22 2014, 02:54 PM.
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minivan987
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And some people might wonder why this place and the community has been slowly dying... [sad]

I'll likely show up to the tournament under any restrictions just because I like playing this game and building new decks. But I definitely always prefer not to have generic negation from MCG and one card bombs running around. There was a time in the lifecycle of this game when my cards had effects that could be used and your cards had effects that could also be used. It was a simpler time and I do miss it.

Additionally just like any other tournament people need to remember this is a tournament run by one individual/playgroup, you are being invited to play with them at their local store and they are trying to attract you to come and play with them. It would be nice to have a large turnout and you are welcome to go or not go if you do not agree with the format decisions or restrictions being placed on what can be played just as you could if you didn't like the price, the prizes available, or the location. While it is always nice of an organizer to gauge input for decisions about their tournament to see if/why people would be interested in going or not going based off of a decision they make the ultimate decision always rests with them.
Edited by minivan987, Mar 22 2014, 03:50 PM.
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