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VS System 2PCG info released
Topic Started: May 27 2015, 12:20 AM (26,014 Views)
BatHulk
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Jun 11 2015, 05:09 PM
So, since UDE can't even make money from a 300 card box sold at 50 dollars, we should expect this new game to fail in how many months?
That's not a fair comparison.

This new set will probably be just as successful as Legendary, which is basically the same packaging/release concept except you can make card game decks from them. And Legendary has been around for 3 years now?
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Honestly, I wasn't in this mindset when this started, but reading answer from people who still defend UDE, thinking about this game failing like everything else UDE did, makes me giggle.

Why is anything seen as "defending" UDE? It's just understanding their decision process.

Contrary to popular belief, UDE provided OP support to the store level all the way to the end. For anyone who thinks that UDE messed that up, blame that on your store owner. I was able to order every Hobby OP kit every month and for every release... sometimes I missed one because I was busy and sometimes I was able to get a hold of someone at UDE to see if there were any more left but the responsibility was on me to make sure I got OP support for my players.

Everyone thinks it's all UDE's fault that Vs 1.0 was discontinued, and it wasn't. There wasn't enough people buying the game to support it. That's a fact. So, how do you fix that? Make the game more accessible. Not sure why that doesn't make sense to some people.

And yes, it may still fail, but just from the Origins posts, it seems like the game is interesting enough to get even the Vs 1.0 purists a bit interested.

Is Scott Thompson going to run a Vs 1.0 event at GenCon? Or is he going to play in the 2PCG events?
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OnyxWeapon
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BatHulk
Jun 11 2015, 03:57 PM


And costs are more than just the cost for the product. There are salaries to pay, convention fees, etc etc etc.

A one-man show running out of your house is obviously going to have lower costs, a company with employees, insurance, building/rent costs is going to have much higher ones.

I stand by my assertion, what was paid for last year sets were for last year sets, I don't think any profit (if there was any) was enough to even come close to funding the costs for this year's sets.


that entire post defending Upper deck's costs only makes sense if Upper Deck has no other revenue stream.

UD paid nothing they weren't paying anyway, with that in mind my numbers are telling.

I mean... at this point you seem intent on arguing for arguments sake.

All i can do is shake my head and wonder why you defend Upper Deck so rigorously and then your next post rails on them again for other things.
Edited by OnyxWeapon, Jun 11 2015, 07:16 PM.
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BatHulk
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@Onyx:

And that's what I mean. I'm not defending UDE, just trying to understand how the accusations are being levied here without any proof.

Accusation: Money spent on last year's GenCon sets funded this years 2PCG release.
Fact 1: No one knows the exact cost or how many sets were sold last year.
Fact 2: Design/dev/productions costs are probably much higher than any money made on a previous set. Regardless of costs that have to be paid anyways, they are still costs that have to be allocated accordingly,

Do you really think they sold 1000 sets? I don't even think there were 1000 people playing Vs last year at GenCon. Your numbers don't mean anything if the volume sold is not high enough. I bet they made only 200 sets, so what did they make if that was zero cost and they sold out, $10k? That doesn't even come close to paying for this year's costs.

If I'm arguing for arguments sake, then that means people are accusing for accusations sake because no one has provided relevant proof that the sets bought last year funded this year's set.

All this talk of being cheated, lied to, etc is a bit of hyperbole. While I agree that the premise of one thing but delivering another is apparent, I don't agree that UDE "stole" the players' money. Overcharged, maybe... but usually when someone buys something, they are paying for what they are getting, not for what they think they are going to get in the future. Like I said, I bought several cases of Marvel Evolution for my store in hopes that the sales numbers would spur UDE to release another set. That didn't happen... but I didn't feel cheated. I spent money on product that I received... that's it.

Just because I support one action from UDE doesn't mean I have to support others. Does everything have to be absolute?
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OnyxWeapon
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BatHulk
Jun 11 2015, 06:44 PM

Everyone thinks it's all UDE's fault that Vs 1.0 was discontinued, and it wasn't. There wasn't enough people buying the game to support it. That's a fact.
Just because you say so does not make it factual.

While revenue numbers weren't what they once were, as I understand it none of the last 6 sets failed to profit. no-one has ever said otherwise.

Remember this was a time where UDE held YuGiOh and WoW licenses and were dominating with them as well.

Perhaps you should hesitate before spouting fact.

However if you have decisive proof VS could not sustain itself even though the final 4 sets were completely sold-out. (of the ude warehouses, vendors still sell some of them to a good profit even now.) I will defer to your "factual" statement.
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OnyxWeapon
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are you even serious?

re: your fact 1:
each sold for $50 and were notably cheaply pushed out.

re: your Fact 2: they sold more than 1000. (at least 1000 units were sold to online vendors. so obv more were sold to walk-up attendees.) The number that was thrown around was 10,000 but i have never seen that confirmed. UDe even redacted twitter posts regarding the number of boxes sold to prevent Fantasy Flight games from legal action.

The sets funding the follow-up release is inferred with the "test market" hyperbole VS fans were given regarding the final 4 sets and the gencon release.

so of course it is assumed that this was UDE's version of a kickstarter for the project. And of course it did well.
Edited by OnyxWeapon, Jun 11 2015, 07:51 PM.
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Mordis
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If I remember correctly, and I may not, they were bringing 500 boxes to the booth to sell each day. I asked one of the employees when I bought my box. I also saw the stack early the first day and that seems right. I know they "sold out" day 1 and 2 because I stopped by the booth near the end of the day to ask. I heard, though I have no evidence, that they sold out Day 3 and 4 as well.
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BatHulk
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@Onyx:

So finally there is more information here.

Remember, I wasn't at GenCon 2014 which is why I was asking previously, how many sets were sold but no one answered until you just did.

Where are you getting this 1000 sets to online vendors number from? And if so, they were not selling them to online vendors for $50, more like $25, so your math still needs to be adjusted.

Your "10,000 sets" number still seems too high. Think about it, during the last days of VS, they couldn't even sell 100 cases total (this is a number I remember being told during the last Marvel Evolution print run). That's only 1200 boxes... if there weren't enough customers back then when Vs was active to buy 1200 boxes, how are you getting 10,000 or even 1000 sets sold?

Seriously, I think there is some mis-remembering going on here. I find it very hard to believe they could sell 500 sets a day of reprint cards and a T-shirt for $50 each.

And again, even if that's true... that's still not enough money to fund R&D/production/marketing/overhead for 2PCG.
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Just because you say so does not make it factual.

While revenue numbers weren't what they once were, as I understand it none of the last 6 sets failed to profit. no-one has ever said otherwise.

Remember this was a time where UDE held YuGiOh and WoW licenses and were dominating with them as well.

Perhaps you should hesitate before spouting fact.

However if you have decisive proof VS could not sustain itself even though the final 4 sets were completely sold-out. (of the ude warehouses, vendors still sell some of them to a good profit even now.) I will defer to your "factual" statement.

Now if it helps you, I'm not just some random dude on the Internet. I was highly invested in Vs back in the day and working for the UDE PTO in SoCal, we had access to information that most players don't.

You don't need to defer to me on anything, but just because UDE "sells out" of its product, does not mean it's viable to continue on. Additionally, not everything that was produced was sold and distributors still had tons of product (that's why you can still see it be sold now). Does anyone remember asking about how was Marvel Legends and DC Legends in stock at certain vendors when it was supposed to be sold out?

It's simple, if a game results in a profit of tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars (like YGO and WoW) and another game results in only hundreds of dollars in profit... and the cost to produce either is the same relatively... wouldn't you discontinue the lower one, even if you sell out?

I think someone from UDE told me that the last set was probably less than 1/10 the production run of the first few sets. So even if it "sells out", that's only 1/10 the product/profit. Would you continue that?

I'm not sure how I can get more factual than that. I never said that UDE didn't sell out of product... I said that not enough people were buying it. That's a simple business rule, if your audience is too small, it doesn't make sense to continue making product for it. And how do you know that they even made a profit on it... just because it's not in their warehouses? Where are you getting your numbers from?
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OnyxWeapon
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all i know is that aside from pre-orders, the final 4 sets were sold out when our atlantic stores went to order more product. We only obtained more by contacting other sellers as none was available through our standard UDE vendors.

i would assume that means sold out.

your product/profit concept is oddly skewed. UDE chose to print less as the demand was ostensibly less as well. Thats fine. but if it sells out, obviously there is room for growth.

With better selling properties and projects i get it, UDE made a call that lived to bite them back. As i am 100% confident that without YuGiOh or WoW, VS would have never been cut. (as i believe it never failed to at least make SOME money. But not much we can do about it now.

I had a feeling you were closely tied to Upper Deck somehow, at least now this debate makes sense to me.
Edited by OnyxWeapon, Jun 11 2015, 08:47 PM.
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BatHulk
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With better selling properties and projects i get it, UDE made a call that lived to bite them back. As i am 100% confident that without YuGiOh or WoW, VS would have never been cut. (as i believe it never failed to at least make SOME money. But not much we can do about it now.

Actually, if I recall correctly, I believe the loss of YGO to Konami was an impetus to cut Vs.

YGO was a wildly profitable product (so profitable, UDE even cheated but that's another story), but without it, there wasn't something to cover the costs of Vs (and WoW was using up most of their R&D resources). In the end, UDE wasn't even doing original art anymore (remember all the comic caps?) because licensing artists was expensive.

It you take that all into consideration, you can understand that even when "sold out", that doesn't exactly mean "profitable enough to continue". After re-reading your previous post, if what I stated about not enough people buying the game for UDE to support it, then why did they discontinue it?

Because they didn't like Vs players? Because they thought it would be funny? It was a business decision, you analyze cost, expenses, future growth and revenue and if it the numbers don't make sense, they just don't.

As I mentioned before, I was involved with a company that made a card game that was precons only and even though we did not sell out of ours sets, we didn't really lose money either. But we stopped making them, because it just didn't make sense to continue a product with such a niche player base.
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I had a feeling you were closely tied to Upper Deck somehow, at least now this debate makes sense to me.

Sorry, I thought it was pretty well known how close I was to Vs... but that was years ago. I didn't work directly for UDE but was very involved with their PTO program so I knew the ins and outs of VS, YGO and WoW OP. And because we were close to UDE HQ in San Diego, their employees would visit the store sometimes and at large events, I would talk with the designers about Vs problems. I think the last major West Coast Vs event was organized by us.

But, to address my bi-polar posts, UDE is not perfect but that can't be entirely blamed on them or their employees, sometimes the business of games dictates their decisions.

I'm not even sure if I remember this correctly but Marvel Legends was really the litmus test on the future of Vs (that's why they redesigned the card template and tried to simplify the effects). DC Legends was the last hurrah (at this point in time, I believe they knew they were not going to renew the DC license) and then I think because of the outcry of oversimplification of MVL, they just gave up on trying to make it more accessible and pulled out the stops on the last 2 Marvel sets (knowing that it would be the last).

With all that being said, I would ask players to give 2PCG a chance. I'm no longer tied to UDE and I'm actually out of gaming altogether (sold the store to Majestix). I just think that it's better to put the past in the past and look forward to a card game (not a deck building game) that involves spandex. I was wrongly optimistic about Ultimate Battles (now that game my store really got burned on... lots of unsold product) but this seems to be much better based on the Origins posts.
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kariggi
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Jun 11 2015, 06:23 PM
The amount of negativity in this room....

negativity...no we're positive this is not the game we were looking for.

Bathulk, I hope this is a great game but this might as well be Ultimate Battles 2PCG, since there appears to be no compatible element.

As to the other discussion meh, we've hashed that all out before.

It is nice to see you around again though.
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KardKrazy
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kariggi
Jun 12 2015, 01:22 PM
xMr. Lemon Headx
Jun 11 2015, 06:23 PM
The amount of negativity in this room....

Bathulk, I hope this is a great game but this might as well be Ultimate Battles 2PCG, since there appears to be no compatible element.
Agreed.

I mean I'm still going to Gen Con to try out the game and take a shot at that prize pool but I'm doubting greatly that I'll be giving my $$ to UDE on a regular basis for this game. It will be easier for me to just give Hearthstone my $$ and sit in the luxury of my home playing cards.

Who knows though, maybe I'll be blown away by it but right now it doesn't seem to be so.
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Wallywest1988
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I get the bitterness having played VS since release but it isn't like UDE re made VS with new rules and a crazy distribution system like yugioh or magic where the cost adds up to stay competitive.

It isn't like they are CASHING IN on VS players on a new set you would need a case of to get 4x of every card like MVL-MEV.

They are releasing a new product literally aimed for easy accessability and low cost. The game is literally 50 dollars and you obtain every card the game has to offer and will offer for a few months at least.

Besides bitterness and anger I just dont see a reason NOT to try it and give them my 50 dollars. I am going to and excited for Gen Con.

Aside from being pretty excited for new VS I am saddened that is ultimately means VS 1.0 is literally never coming back and dead. I will remember the best times and continue playing it while trying the new VS.

Lastly, having not really dove into any new TCG I am excited for a game with OP support. Weekly tournaments with friends and new people and promos. Agreeing very much with Bathulk UDE did well with OP and not many games can say that. Granted I can get this experience from any supported tcg with OP. Superhero licenses grab me.

I am very curious how they plan to appeal to the collector market. Before the last 4 sets VS had EAs and some were rediculously rare and only released at 1 event. Later they just made foils ratio's harder with MVL+. Wondering what they plan on doing since you will get 4x of every card and they acknowledged only doing 1-2 bigger events (Less events for harder to get promos)
Edited by Wallywest1988, Jun 12 2015, 03:35 PM.
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KardKrazy
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Wallywest1988
Jun 12 2015, 03:32 PM
It isn't like they are CASHING IN on VS players on a new set you would need a case of to get 4x of every card like MVL-MEV.

They are releasing a new product literally aimed for easy accessability and low cost. The game is literally 50 dollars and you obtain every card the game has to offer and will offer for a few months at least.
That is actually one of the things that kind of worries me about this new game. I don't know where I read it or heard it but I swear it was stated sets were gonna be 400 cards each. That would mean we are only getting 100 unique cards per set. Not to mention what does this mean regarding "Army" cards. Will they not exist in this game and if they do I'm guessing you're gonna have to trade for them or buy them as singles via a site like CoolStuffInc? I can't imagine them being cheap either if they do exist because for a store to tear open a $50 box for a few Army cards is a bit much.

Just questions I'm definitely interested in seeing answered as the time for Gen Con nears.
Edited by KardKrazy, Jun 12 2015, 03:47 PM.
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deviaan
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So what we have is another LCG(TM) that happens to have a Comic theme and a few similarities to a dead, but loved, game?

I'll be honest, I do find the mechanics so far interesting. What I don't know is if there is room on my shelf or in my budget for another LCG(TM). It's funny that they choose this model to simplify the game when it's used for some of the most complex games around (Netrunner and Doomtown for instance).

I hope it's good, but I don't know if it'll be good enough to catch my interest.
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xMr. Lemon Headx
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It is going to be great when a lot of you old vs players love the new game. All of this negativity before the game is even released is what gets me. Give it a try and THEN bash UDE if you are still of the same opinion.
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