Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Once you've registered and completed email validation, you'll need to reply to the thread in The Welcome mat before you gain full access to the site.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
VS System 2PCG info released
Topic Started: May 27 2015, 12:20 AM (26,004 Views)
-TK-
No Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
xMr. Lemon Headx
Jun 29 2015, 07:13 PM
TK, do you realize that in most of your posts, you come off as very rude? There are better ways of proving your point.
Wait, is this what everyone feel about my answers?

I tend to be sarcastic most of the time, but offensive? I didn't realized that.

I apologize for that.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Psychotime
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
plaid_warlock
Jun 29 2015, 07:18 PM
Yeah the locations are going to be like lands from MtG. Do we know how many locations will be in the set? I mean if you have an MC that uses say the red type then you obviously have to have more than four of one red location in your deck if you want to take more advantage of that ability. That's also not taking into account that you could have supporting characters with red powers as well. So yeah, I'm thinking you're going to have to fill up a good chunk of your deck with locations.


There's the option of playing with none at all. It's not like all cards have to pay colored resources, so choosing to avoid them altogether is an option.

Take the Hulk card, for example. Just because he has Banner's Influence doesn't mean a player NEEDS to build around it or use it at all. There can be the impulsive players that'll only run green resources for him to smash everything. Then there will be the cerebral players who want to build around Banner's Influence, run yellow along with the green, and find a clever way to get the ability to work. (This is what I'm talking about when I say the card is great.)

And then there's the players who won't want to use his powers at all and just want a 3/3 that eventually turns into a 6/6.

And then there's Wolverine. Some players will want to focus on SNIKT! to try to end the game quickly, others just his Healing Factor to stall. Some will do both. Others do none at all.
Edited by Psychotime, Jun 29 2015, 07:55 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
-TK-
No Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Psychotime
Jun 29 2015, 06:59 PM
Being an LCG means the game will come with counters in the box. If UDE is smart, at least. We'll see.

Why is the font for "Basic Location" not Percolator Expert? Like it is for every official preview? Where did the image come from?




TK, dodging questions, sidestepping points, and ignoring explanations isn't the same as making an actual argument. Read the page again and actually try to argue instead of sidestep.

What Magic's five colors does is create a system that can add new expansions with new worlds and new mechanics without the risk of those additions being too parasitic (and by that I mean card sets that only work their best with cards in the same set, and are dead next to unrelated cards). It goes in line with how the game's limited play is even workable (only game in my experience where limited play is actually good).

Having five different resources with different strengths, abilities, and weaknesses forces a player to have to make decisions when deck building. Should I accept the weakness of X and make a deck of only that type? Should I compensate by splashing in some of Y? But if I do that, it's trickier to pull off.

Then when new cards debut, it's not a bunch of parasitic cards that they can't use in their old deck, it's intentionally compatible while still having a limitation and distinction so that it can't be in every deck. That's what it does: create components that are backwards-compatible while still having restrictions, therefore variety in decks.

It's not the only way to design a game, but it's a good one. That's why they're borrowing the concept for VS 2.0. VS didn't need it, but it's a good idea if they implement it well.

You're just going to sidestep this one too, aren't you?
Ok, first: Lemonhead makes me realize I've been unpolite here. I guess, since you were the one I argued the most, you deserve my apology.

Second.

- I never sidestepped anything. Your position is that the variability and flexibility of mtg come from how its resource system is setted.

Problem is, the flaws everyone recognise when they talk about mtg land system aren't related to the 5 colors system. That's fine. Lots of games keep that division.

The problem is the way you need to draw into those lands, cause 1) you are forced to give away a huge chunk of your deck in useless cards and 2) the system makes roughtly 1 game out of 3 a non-game.

That's empiric and undeniable: everyone that ever played magic can confirm that: the land system turns some game into solitaire. Your opponent is simply not playing due to screw or flood.

Losing to lesser draw is ok. Losing for not being able to play is bad design. It's bad design cause Magic is a game you are supposed to play 1vs1, not 1vsNoneSinceMyOpponentHasNoLands.

Every single game after mtg try to solve this problem. Everyone.

People at WotC know about the problem and have turned it into a way to keep players into the game. Sadly, this doesn't make mtg better as a game, it's just makes it better at keeping people into it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
xMr. Lemon Headx
Member Avatar
Elite Member
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
No worries, TK. I appreciate you addressing it. [cool]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Psychotime
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Calling resource cards in a deck "useless" is inherently a fallacy. They always have a use in the game by default.

The complaint that it's bad design because it's random is a fallacious argument because all games with a shuffled deck have randomness as a factor. You're never going to always draw the right cards at the right time, and it's your job as a player is to take responsibility for that variance every way that you can. That's what card games that want you to make your own deck expect out of you.

Saying the game NEEDS to help you win without any of your own input says alot about what you expect out of the games you play.

And honestly, it's funny, because I can say that I actually dislike most purely random games. I dislike Boss Monster and Star Realms because the players have zero input on what's available to them, and when the randomness wants to screw you, it will, and you have nothing you can do about it.

You can focus on a goal or strategy, and cards that don't help that goal in any way will pop up as your only option, because you have no control over what can show up. The game can give your opponents the option of outmaneuvering you simply because the better card spawned for them and not for you. I find little enjoyment in those kinds of games.

I personally feel that both games would be improved if each player had a degree of control over what random cards they can be dealt. In Star Realms' case, it should just have the set up of Dominion. For Boss Monster, each player should be able to build their own deck.

Hopefully that helps you understand where I'm coming from.

I already explained how the games I named in the other thread use randomness in their resource system. I'll copy paste them.

Quote:
 
Game of Thrones has the player control their minimum amount of resources through their plot cards, but to gain more than that minimum as the game progresses, you must invest in locations (and characters, if you're playing Lannister) that add to your amount or lessen costs, and only if you manage to draw them from your deck. The players set their minimum, but progression is random, and dependent on how the player built their deck. If you build a deck with cards that are too expensive, you'll have to rely on drawing the right resources during gameplay.

Pokemon assigned resources to a separate card type that have to be drawn from the deck at random. Like Magic, you can get screwed and not draw what you want, and like Magic, mixing two colors at once will result in an even trickier deck to play.

Force of Will is essentially Magic with the lands set as a separate deck (that is shuffled), and the player must invest their Ruler in order to add to their resource pool each turn. The second you use more than one color (or use non-basic resources), your resources get trickier and you can color screw yourself. Progression becomes random once your deck becomes more advanced, and only grows the more colors your deck has. Even in a two color deck you can get color screwed if you use cards that are too color intensive, and it's smarter to build a deck with cards that are less mana intensive, but balanced to be weaker.


I'll also leave this quote from you again.

-TK-
Jun 9 2015, 07:30 PM
And I never said that randomized resource are bad.
Edited by Psychotime, Jun 29 2015, 08:42 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
minivan987
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Psychotime
Jun 29 2015, 07:40 PM
There's the option of playing with none at all. It's not like all cards have to pay colored resources, so choosing to avoid them altogether is an option.
I find that highly doubtful. It could turn out to be possible but I am not envisioning them actually wanting to promote such a play style for the most part. The "main character" is supposed to be the focus of your deck in this new game and every ability we have seen has a location cost associated with it.

I do so far hate the fact that locations do nothing other than act as something you can flip face down to activate a MC ability though.
Edited by minivan987, Jun 29 2015, 09:11 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Speedy92286
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
-TK-
Jun 29 2015, 05:31 PM
No way in hell you can play only 4x of a card needed to activate the power of the character on which you based your whole strategy.

And even if, it's still 4 useless cards needed to activate other cards. There is nothing of the legend concept in those location.

They even report the "basic location" name, like the 5 different lands are "basic lands" in mtg.

Do we know how many basic locations we can have in a deck? I was assuming basic meant non-unique but if you can have as many as you want in your deck that is a different story. I was also assuming that you only need one of the color to activate it. I am also assuming that there will be other non basic locations so i don't see a reason to run 10 of each color you need when you can run 4 to 5 of each and save room for othet cards. Especially with all the draw abilities we have seen. I don't think they are making basic locations like mtg lands, at least not yet. Not going to jump to conclusions until I see more cards and how they work.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Psychotime
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
minivan987
Jun 29 2015, 09:06 PM
I find that highly doubtful. It could turn out to be possible but I am not envisioning them actually wanting to promote such a play style for the most part.


It's already evident with the supporting characters they've revealed. Using the main character's abilities are completely optional, not required. That's why they're payment powers.

Under the rules as we know them so far, the game can play just fine without the colored resources. The distinction is that if you want to make use of them in gameplay, you'll have to build your deck around it. Your choice. You can still play the characters without them and build the deck that you want to make. It's really that simple.
Edited by Psychotime, Jun 29 2015, 09:38 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Orange_Soda_Man
Member Avatar
Yolo Boros
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
plaid_warlock
Jun 29 2015, 07:18 PM
Yeah the locations are going to be like lands from MtG. Do we know how many locations will be in the set?
One for each color and the wild are confirmed, don't know if there'll be any more than that yet. Having 8 possible sources for your character power might be all we get.

This game is likely going to be much more back-and-forth, much less 'clockworks' than VS 1.0 - can easily see turns pass without MCs getting stunned or powers being used.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hank McCoy
Member Avatar
Elite Member
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
It was mentioned by Jeff P that each team had 5 locations (so that would mean 20 locations per team - 80 locations in the box)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
plaid_warlock
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
@ Psychotime:
I feel like the main way to win a card game is to get the most value you can out of all your cards. Having an MC with little to no ways of activating his or her abilities seems like an incredibly poor deckbuilding strategy. Let's pretend this is MtG for a second. You put a green creature in your green deck that requires black mana to use its really good ability. Then you don't put any lands that make black mana into your deck because you just want the creature for its stats? That seems really narrow-minded and not productive.

@ HankMcCoy:
Awesome, so there should be a good selection of "lands" to put in your deck.
Edited by plaid_warlock, Jun 29 2015, 10:58 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Speedy92286
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Hank McCoy
Jun 29 2015, 10:21 PM
It was mentioned by Jeff P that each team had 5 locations (so that would mean 20 locations per team - 80 locations in the box)
Nice! Now I am curious as to what the non basic ones do.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
BatHulk
Member Avatar
Elite Member
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Using locations to activate SuperPowers is a bit different from the mana resources system that MtG utilizes.

You don't have to run 1/3 of your deck with locations. And while you may get "location screwed", that doesn't hamper your MC from participating in combat.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Psychotime
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
plaid_warlock
Jun 29 2015, 10:58 PM
@ Psychotime:
I feel like the main way to win a card game is to get the most value you can out of all your cards. Having an MC with little to no ways of activating his or her abilities seems like an incredibly poor deckbuilding strategy. Let's pretend this is MtG for a second. You put a green creature in your green deck that requires black mana to use its really good ability. Then you don't put any lands that make black mana into your deck because you just want the creature for its stats? That seems really narrow-minded and not productive.
Your standpoint is literally the definition of narrow-minded.

I'm not sure what word you MEANT to use, but if you're the type of player that wants to optimize every card you run, then that's fine. There can be times where it's a detriment to yourself, but it's an option that's still valid.

I'm the kind of person that would use that green card if it's still useful in my deck without the power. And that's what matters, if I find it useful.

Say I'm playing in a format that has a low amount of elves and I'm looking for a solid 2-drop for my tribal deck. Say your card is a card that works with what I need. Would I ignore the aforementioned card because it has an ability I'm not going to ever use? No, I wouldn't. If there's no better option, and it's useful for my deck, then I'm gonna use it without caring about that ability.

I don't need to shove a couple swamps into my deck just to use an ability that my deck doesn't need. I can end up color-screwing myself over one card. Why would I do that?

Let's have another Magic example. A real one. Say you're running an Outlast deck that's about putting +1/+1 counters on your creatures. You have abilities that activate from having +1/+1 counters, and that's the main goal of your deck. You have the option of running warrior tribal cards; the only thing is that you have only two warriors in your entire deck. Would you use the tribal cards? They don't do anything for the majority of your +1/+1 creatures, but they're really good if you can pull it off on the minority cards. You'll do it? Well you just gave yourself a bunch of dead cards that'll only work about 10% of the time in actual gameplay.

I don't pretend to be a pro player, but that's what an amateur would do. If that's the way you play Magic, you're sabotaging yourself. I'm not joking.

Let's go back to VS 2.0. Given how tricky it is to use Hulk's Banner ablility, would you shoehorn yellow locations in your deck solely for the sake of using an ability that's intentionally hard to pull off already?

Is one of your deck's goals making use of that ability? Because it'd have to be for it to ever go off. Your deck has other goals? Then ignore it. It's not worth muddying up your deck for an ability that you won't even use. You're better off using different cards in your deck that will actually do something. THAT'S how you get value out of your cards.

I personally think that your play style is impractical.
Edited by Psychotime, Jun 30 2015, 02:21 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OMB
Member Avatar
Elite Member
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
The big difference as far as I can tell is that you pretty much have to dump something in the row anyway. Including the locations just means that you get to dump something down there that you can actually use to give you a boost instead of just throwing away a character or plot twist.

Considering the starting hand size is now 7 (right?) and you still draw 2 cards a turn the odds of getting flooded with location type cards is very low unless you are running waaaaaay too many of them. Seeing as the one spoiled avengers PT appears to need a location to activate they will be used for more than just your Main Character abilities. You'll need to find a balance for sure, but just skipping them completely will almost surely hamstring your deck.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Marvel Comics Character Images, Character Names and Card Text Copyright 2009 Marvel Characters Ltd. and/or Upper Deck Entertainment, LLC. DC Comics Character Images, Character Names and Card Text Copyright 2009 DC Characters Ltd. and/or Upper Deck Entertainment, LLC.