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VS System 2PCG info released
Topic Started: May 27 2015, 12:20 AM (26,000 Views)
PandaMan
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My comment on the facebook post seems to have been deleted......

I wouldn't have a problem except I was only saying what most other people have said in, which is disliking the resource system as its so much like magic. This entire game is just starting to look like a clone.

With the explanation of some of the mechanics I'm a little more interested than I was, but I still don't think this will do as well as they think it will. Looks like it will have a short lifespan.

Edit: just saw the only 4 of for the locations.

Sooooo unless I draw one of these 4 cards in my 60 card deck I can never use the powers of most of my characters or my main character. This "Increases the level of strategy".

Seriously what the hell where they thinking? They really should have done some player based testing with this.
Edited by PandaMan, Jul 2 2015, 02:26 AM.
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plaid_warlock
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Plot twists don't have a threshold cost anymore but characters still do. Locations aren't just fuel for powers. They're also useful things you can put in your row to have the resources necessary to recruit characters. I feel like people are forgetting about that when it's kind of important. Again, I don't like this change but you have to have some sort of resource mechanic. This is probably the easiest way to do it. Hearthstone's resource engine works well because it's a digital game. It's easy to see it in action but I'm sure it would be a pain in the ass if it was played in real life instead of online. You'd probably have to keep track of your resource count with dice or something.

My point is I feel there's no reason to scrap the resource engine entirely just because things about it have changed. It's basically still the same engine, just more restrictive about what you can put in your row while still getting value from it.

Also since people have posted while I was typing this up, there are more basic locations than just the 4 in the preview. You can only have four copies of the laboratory thing in your deck but there will be other blue energy locations to use. They've apparently already said this, at least according to Facebook people.
Edited by plaid_warlock, Jul 2 2015, 02:41 AM.
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Psychotime
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For the basic resources to fit under the 4-of rule, they can't add any more cards that do the same thing.

Imagine if in old VS they made a 4-threshold plot twist that gives +5 ATK to an attacker and named it Violent Barrage. Sound familiar? Now there's another card named Savage Beatdown that does the same thing, right? You can have 4 of each card in your deck now! What if they made another card that does the same thing called Murderous Annihilation? Now I can have 12 copies of Savage Beatdown in my deck!

The 4-of rule for resources means they will never make new cards to replace them, because the result will give players the ability to add more of the same card to their deck, which they don't want to happen. They establish a 4-of rule for a basic resource, they aren't going to make new ones.

The non-basic locations are a different thing entirely. The only one we've seen so far is team-stamped, and I assume that most will do other things than just add resources, the same way it works in other games. And with the aforementioned rule they're gonna be careful about it.

My guess is that not every team will get wild locations. Otherwise there's no point in making team-stamped ones.
Edited by Psychotime, Jul 2 2015, 03:17 AM.
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x_chan
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plaid_warlock
Jul 2 2015, 02:37 AM
Plot twists don't have a threshold cost anymore but characters still do. Locations aren't just fuel for powers. They're also useful things you can put in your row to have the resources necessary to recruit characters. I feel like people are forgetting about that when it's kind of important. Again, I don't like this change but you have to have some sort of resource mechanic. This is probably the easiest way to do it. Hearthstone's resource engine works well because it's a digital game. It's easy to see it in action but I'm sure it would be a pain in the ass if it was played in real life instead of online. You'd probably have to keep track of your resource count with dice or something.

My point is I feel there's no reason to scrap the resource engine entirely just because things about it have changed. It's basically still the same engine, just more restrictive about what you can put in your row while still getting value from it.

Also since people have posted while I was typing this up, there are more basic locations than just the 4 in the preview. You can only have four copies of the laboratory thing in your deck but there will be other blue energy locations to use. They've apparently already said this, at least according to Facebook people.
There's nothing from the resource engine there. No thresholds, no plot twists from the row, no ongoning plot twists, no replacing effects, no locations (as they are mere energy now), no reservist, no terraform, NOTHING.

Like you say, it's only used to recruit characters. There's so many other natural ways to do so that could have been more flavourful to the new game. Keeping the old VS resource row feels forced, pointless and completelly out of place.

Some system like Hearthstone would have worked wonders with this game. You get 1 additional resource each round. You spend them to recruit characters (as that's the only real use of the resource row right now). Call the resources something flavourful, like "hero points", and you have the perfect resource system for your new game. You can even have some plot twists that interact with that giving you extra hero points or taking some from your oponent (and since the curve has been fixed, that wouldn't be game breaking).

Then you have a draw 2, discard 1 draw phase, and color based energy type cards to discard to activate powers (Psychome example seems so much better than the actual cards). No need for locations or odd game rules like resource row plot twists/characters can't be played, locations have one use only from your resource row, etc.

Why the need to overly complicate stuff for no reason, confusing players with the resource row, other than to stick with the old system that doesn't fit the new one at all?

Is this so hard to see?
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Orange_Soda_Man
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There's a disproportionate amount of criticism going on compared to the results of that survey. People complained about Magic being made simpler too. I doubt this'll be as bad as some of you expect.
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Orange_Soda_Man
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I'm not gonna deny there are things I don't like. There being more than one basic location that does the same effect doesn't make much sense to me with the 21 cards we've seen so far.

This is also a base set - just because as far as we know there aren't locations with other effects or equipment doesn't mean they can't add them down the road.
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kariggi
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call erik this is really bad vagic(tm) and is going to kill a great name.
please please please reexamine this before these clearly not fully realized ideas go to print.
This doesn't need to happen everyone would understand. Others have shown you better card layouts. Don't be proud, seek them out and use us.

This is getting to the point that it doesn't actually seem any less complex just completely different and incompatible with VS and if so I have to ask why. At least thousand understand the complex VS system, no one understands the Vagic system you've created to die.

Please pull this like the movie image game before it happens and go back to the drawing board (literally) we will help ...let us. This is not good. We won't buy it, kids won't buy it, it will make the VS name look bad.

Call Erik as much as I disagree with him at least he has ideas that could make your card compatible enough so that my 4 friends and I would buy them. You need us to buy cards. Make cards I can convince my friends to buy.
Edited by kariggi, Jul 2 2015, 12:50 PM.
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x_chan
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Jul 2 2015, 03:25 AM
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There's a disproportionate amount of criticism going on compared to the results of that survey. People complained about Magic being made simpler too. I doubt this'll be as bad as some of you expect.
Well, this is not a "version" of the game. This is a completelly new game with a V and an S in it's name. Any resemblance to the old game is anecdotic (only real stuff left are flight and range, everything else is just plain vanilla stuff that's in almost every card game).

I would have tried the game was it called any other name. Like I did with Legendary. I think it has good ideas on the MC department (although I liked the way Legend cards were introduced on VS system better), and separating it from VS would have allowed them to create it's own identity and do stuff only for the new game, like energy cards or new rules created only for the combat phase, like the game seems to be all about. But calling this VS is just a joke.

What I'm more sad about is that it has no flavour. It's a mix of other games mechanics put together. They put 0 effort in it.
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KardKrazy
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Psychotime
Jul 2 2015, 02:52 AM
My guess is that not every team will get wild locations. Otherwise there's no point in making team-stamped ones.
You would guess wrong sir. According to UDE themselves:
Quote:
 
Each team also has a team-stamped “wild” location,...
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Psychotime
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Wow, what's the point of doing that? That's pretty dumb.
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BatHulk
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First, this isn't a vast change in the resource system. You still need them to track how many points you have to recruit that turn.

As for making locations like Pokemon energy cards, I disagree.

In Pokemon, you have to run energy cards like land cards in Magic because almost every effect from every Pokemon requires it (as you have to run land in Magic because you can't create mana without it). In this current version of Vs, only the MCs require it and they don't need it for combat, just for their SuperPower and to level up. You can run a location-less deck and still combat (although your deck would be really neutered). And if you are planning on going one type, you could probably get away with just running 8 locations (4 wild, 4 basic) instead of 1/3 to 1/2 of your deck full of energy/lands.

I would like Mandel to go into the philosophy of why they chose this type of secondary resource system in 2PCG.
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x_chan
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Jul 2 2015, 06:19 AM
First, this isn't a vast change in the resource system. You still need them to track how many points you have to recruit that turn.

As for making locations like Pokemon energy cards, I disagree.

In Pokemon, you have to run energy cards like land cards in Magic because almost every effect from every Pokemon requires it (as you have to run land in Magic because you can't create mana without it). In this current version of Vs, only the MCs require it and they don't need it for combat, just for their SuperPower and to level up. You can run a location-less deck and still combat (although your deck would be really neutered). And if you are planning on going one type, you could probably get away with just running 8 locations (4 wild, 4 basic) instead of 1/3 to 1/2 of your deck full of energy/lands.

I would like Mandel to go into the philosophy of why they chose this type of secondary resource system in 2PCG.
Going energyless will put you in a hard spot. If your oponent levels up his MC, you are probably done for good.

And regarding the resource row. What's the need of it? If any card is able to grant you a point by placing it face down. And all your cards on your resource row are going to be dead weight. Why not make you draw 2 and discard one instead and give you the resource points (or hero points and they are no longer resources like before, they didn't restrict locations or plot twists) at the start of your build face? Why keep up with a system that no longer fits your game?

Hearthstone doesn't use resource cards and still you can easily track your resources and have a limit amount of them to recruit a finit number of characters. I don't get why they didn't go that route and instead kept a system that's working against their new game.

Eliminating the resource row completelly would have made the game combat centered only, which is what they want. All your cards in the field would be characters, and the cards on your hand would work to powe them up, though PT, Energy cards or power ups. That would have made the game a lot more solid. Having cards face down contribute nothing to the new game and is going to cause confusion to new and old players alike.

Also all this "team stamped" general locations cards would have been replaced with something more useful. If we are only getting 100 different cards, it seems at least 25 will be plain looking locations. A waste of space IMHO.
Edited by x_chan, Jul 2 2015, 07:37 AM.
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Speedy92286
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Facebook page seems to be really happy with the new row and I have to agree. Locations are vital for several reasons now and you have to decide the best time to use them. This adds an extra layer of strategy instead of just having them all be passive. Much like magic you really have to count your opponents hand and look at their field; because if you make a mistake (attacking colossus without pumps on turn 7 for example) the location based powers are devastating.

However since they are limited to 4 each and 4 wild cards per team you get a max of 8 uses per power. Now i am seeing why there are not any team ups. It would make the wild locations, and in turn MC's and Support characters that use them too even more devastating.

After seeing Colossus and the MC's the new style of play reminds me of the way I used to play my Marrow deck (shhhh, she is my favorite card, sue me). I had threats you saw, Marrow, Storm, Callisto, Leech, Tar Baby (totally a threat to some decks I assure you!), Caliban, etc. I also had threats you didn't see, which are basically all my plot twists and when I flipped up Yancy street or the Hill. What I am saying is that in the new game combat will be more of judging do you think your opponent has a location card to use their MC's power, or will they hold onto it?

Storm's power is a great example of this because early game it will devastate your opponent, get free stuns (0 defense and you get stunned) and late game it will help with trades and saving your character from getting stunned. However, you can only use it a max of 8 times. Do you use it on turn 2? Or do you save it for a later turn for when there is a larger threat?

Remember guys, plot twists are ALSO in the game so there will be a ton more choices instead of just having a passive effect on the field. I am sure passive locations will come out at some point, but for now the game strategy has shifted from both players focusing on the row and board to the board even more and the hand.

I can tell you from past experiences that the hand mattered less to me than the board and row. 90 percent of decks I have fought kept their crap in their hand and their more powerful stuff in the row. Unless they are playing a ton of locations or reservist (not many play more than a few ongoings since Revenge Squad was always a little meh) you can bet if they have 7 resources they most likely have 5+ cards to use against you. If they have 7 cards in their hand, it is more like 2 most of the time.

With the new game if they have 10 cards in their hand, it is more like 7 options to use against you. However now since MC's are created you have think about the MC's power since you HAVE to stun them to win. So if Hulk has two wounds, will the opponent add counters on him to make him stronger or let the stun go through so he levels up faster? Will he save his locations for when he is LV2 or use it to stun your own MC?

I know I am all over the place right now, but I honestly think the resource row change is good for this version of the game. They want to you to focus mostly on the hand and field. The row is either just cards to put down to play another, or locations to fuel powers. That's it. Does this take away strategy from the game? Yes and no. Yeah, you don't have to worry about your opponents row really unless they are playing a ton of locations face up but it shifted to now being a game where the hand is soooo much more important.

TLDR: I like the new resource system because it makes the hand and board far more important while the row is just used to stay on curve.

Edit: On the computer so fixing spacing and adding more!

Edit 2: Sorry for being so wordy >_>

Edited by Speedy92286, Jul 2 2015, 11:32 AM.
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Psychotime
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Jul 2 2015, 06:19 AM
As for making locations like Pokemon energy cards, I disagree.

In Pokemon, you have to run energy cards like land cards in Magic because almost every effect from every Pokemon requires it (as you have to run land in Magic because you can't create mana without it). In this current version of Vs, only the MCs require it and they don't need it for combat, just for their SuperPower and to level up. You can run a location-less deck and still combat (although your deck would be really neutered). And if you are planning on going one type, you could probably get away with just running 8 locations (4 wild, 4 basic) instead of 1/3 to 1/2 of your deck full of energy/lands.


Comparing it to Pokemon is more accurate than comparing it to Magic. It's not exactly the same, but the principal concept is: Part of your deck is composed of resource cards that are used to activate character abilities and nothing else.

Um, which characters need energy to level up? I didn't see any.

Oh, how many people here are aware that VS System's central resource system of putting cards into a row each turn is a simplified version of the resource system from Duel Masters? Because it is.
Edited by Psychotime, Jul 2 2015, 11:40 AM.
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Speedy92286
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Edit:, Storm does. Whenever you use a super power, not just hers, she gains experience. She is my fav MC so far for that alone.
Edited by Speedy92286, Jul 2 2015, 11:36 AM.
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