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VS System 2PCG info released
Topic Started: May 27 2015, 12:20 AM (25,995 Views)
KardKrazy
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Psychotime
Jul 7 2015, 05:46 PM
I'm surprised that after all the talk of making the game simpler, they go and make combat a little more complicated than it used to be.
I agree...this is surprising and will take a little getting use to at first.
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KardKrazy
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Wow...I was just talking to Jbo about the attacking rules.

Range is pretty damn strong and I just realized while looking through the cards that ones that had Range in Vs 1.0 do not have it in Vs 2.0.

Storm and Captain America for example.

Not sure I agree with them not having Range. :\

Although, I guess they are just reserving Range for Guns/Hand Blasters. <-- Jbo's thoughts.
Edited by KardKrazy, Jul 7 2015, 06:09 PM.
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minivan987
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Granted I haven't taken much if any time to really bother to learn them but all of the new symbols they have in the cards now are also awkward to me.

Why in the holy hell do I need a symbol to tell me if I can play a card during either players turn? The fact that somehow this game might need a symbol to tell me that about an effect just makes me concerned for the way the game plays. Additionally such symbols are not differentiated enough from the resource payment symbols as well. I'm sitting here right now trying to remember what the Red circle radar looking thing means and I honestly can't remember.
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Speedy92286
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My guess would be board control. If you have no way to defend youe MC you are bound to lose.
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Hank McCoy
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Red stands for Skill.

And the circle that says you can play during either turn is because by default you can only play plot twists (and use abilities) on your own turn. The circle lets you know you can use it during your opponents turn to interrupt what they are doing.

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-TK-
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Psychotime
Jun 29 2015, 08:31 PM
Calling resource cards in a deck "useless" is inherently a fallacy. They always have a use in the game by default.

The complaint that it's bad design because it's random is a fallacious argument because all games with a shuffled deck have randomness as a factor. You're never going to always draw the right cards at the right time, and it's your job as a player is to take responsibility for that variance every way that you can. That's what card games that want you to make your own deck expect out of you.

Saying the game NEEDS to help you win without any of your own input says alot about what you expect out of the games you play.

And honestly, it's funny, because I can say that I actually dislike most purely random games. I dislike Boss Monster and Star Realms because the players have zero input on what's available to them, and when the randomness wants to screw you, it will, and you have nothing you can do about it.

You can focus on a goal or strategy, and cards that don't help that goal in any way will pop up as your only option, because you have no control over what can show up. The game can give your opponents the option of outmaneuvering you simply because the better card spawned for them and not for you. I find little enjoyment in those kinds of games.

I personally feel that both games would be improved if each player had a degree of control over what random cards they can be dealt. In Star Realms' case, it should just have the set up of Dominion. For Boss Monster, each player should be able to build their own deck.

Hopefully that helps you understand where I'm coming from.

I already explained how the games I named in the other thread use randomness in their resource system. I'll copy paste them.

Quote:
 
Game of Thrones has the player control their minimum amount of resources through their plot cards, but to gain more than that minimum as the game progresses, you must invest in locations (and characters, if you're playing Lannister) that add to your amount or lessen costs, and only if you manage to draw them from your deck. The players set their minimum, but progression is random, and dependent on how the player built their deck. If you build a deck with cards that are too expensive, you'll have to rely on drawing the right resources during gameplay.

Pokemon assigned resources to a separate card type that have to be drawn from the deck at random. Like Magic, you can get screwed and not draw what you want, and like Magic, mixing two colors at once will result in an even trickier deck to play.

Force of Will is essentially Magic with the lands set as a separate deck (that is shuffled), and the player must invest their Ruler in order to add to their resource pool each turn. The second you use more than one color (or use non-basic resources), your resources get trickier and you can color screw yourself. Progression becomes random once your deck becomes more advanced, and only grows the more colors your deck has. Even in a two color deck you can get color screwed if you use cards that are too color intensive, and it's smarter to build a deck with cards that are less mana intensive, but balanced to be weaker.


I'll also leave this quote from you again.

-TK-
Jun 9 2015, 07:30 PM
And I never said that randomized resource are bad.
Again, the problem must be my english here.

Cause you keep not getting what I mean.

I think I stated it really clear: I DO NOT THINK THAT RANDOMNESS EQUALS BAD DESIGN.

What I think is, instead, that a resource system that turn games into not-games is bad design.

They are 2 completely different position and I honestly don't know how to explain it better. Can someone help me here? Cause It seems obvious to me but I can't get i throught.

I never said the game needs to help me win. I said the game needs to let me play the game.

Therefore, I do not dislike randomized resource system. I dislike Magic resource system cause it doesn't allow you to play the game at least 1 out of 4 match. Which is an insanely high %.

All the games you mentioned keep a randomized resource system but minimize the chance that that randomness ends up turning your game into a solitaire.
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Psychotime
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Posted Image

https://www.facebook.com/VsSystem2PCG/photos/a.782119235229276.1073741828.762608663847000/790050471102819/?type=1

Daredevil is awesome and so is this card.
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plaid_warlock
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Lol Psychotime beat me to it. Love this card. Easily should be in every Avengers deck.
Edited by plaid_warlock, Jul 7 2015, 10:55 PM.
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Psychotime
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-TK-
Jul 7 2015, 09:58 PM
Therefore, I do not dislike randomized resource system. I dislike Magic resource system cause it doesn't allow you to play the game at least 1 out of 4 match. Which is an insanely high %.
Where are you getting that percentage from?

I'll admit to using a tumblr weirdo as a source, so it's up to you if you want to believe them. Make sure to read it the whole way through.

http://jtsmtg.tumblr.com/post/3480985388/data-dump-mana-screw-and-mana-flood-how-common

According to their calculations, the odds of the average competitive Magic deck from being unable to draw any lands in four consecutive turns is 11.55%, and they believe that the average player's frustration over it are emotional exaggeration over legitimate factual data.

Keep in mind that Magic was designed by a person with a PhD in Mathematics, and the odds of how their resource system works out would naturally be part of their decisions. Much more than your average game designer by a longshot.
Edited by Psychotime, Jul 7 2015, 11:33 PM.
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KardKrazy
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Holy mother of god...that Daredevil card seems a bit OP...and with so it is the first card I have seen that I will actually go and say "I love it.".
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Speedy92286
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KardKrazy
Jul 8 2015, 12:39 AM
Holy mother of god...that Daredevil card seems a bit OP...and with so it is the first card I have seen that I will actually go and say "I love it.".
Yeah, I know. He is sooo good. If you play him on your attack step you can almost guarantee a wound on the opposing character. Use Iron Man's ability on turn two with this guy and blam! Even late game 6 attack is nothing to sneeze at while going after a MC. With 3 drop cap you he is even better on later turns.
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OMB
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Psychotime
Jul 7 2015, 05:46 PM
Without endurance and reinforcement, I wonder what use there is in protecting a character without range in new VS.
I would think trying to keep fragile (one wound) characters alive for later turns mostly... :P
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Orange_Soda_Man
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Cap is sweet with the new combat rules - most MCs on level 1 can't stun him back anyways. Potentially puts Daredevil in a position to do a lot of work the turn you play him, then Think Again MNB-024 to save him on defense seems pretty legit.
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Psychotime
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OMB
Jul 8 2015, 03:39 AM
Psychotime
Jul 7 2015, 05:46 PM
Without endurance and reinforcement, I wonder what use there is in protecting a character without range in new VS.
I would think trying to keep fragile (one wound) characters alive for later turns mostly... :P
I don't know about that. In VS 1.0 I can see it, but with initiative gone there's not much incentive anymore to play defensively on certain turns. The days of turtling every other turn are over. You get to play your dudes and then attack with them immediately afterward! You'll never have to wait on your opponent to attack your new dudes before you get to use them!

But with the other stuff gone, you put a melee dude in the back row, unless they have a static ability, they're literally useless.
Edited by Psychotime, Jul 8 2015, 04:13 AM.
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Dog
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Orange_Soda_Man
Jul 8 2015, 03:55 AM
Cap is sweet with the new combat rules - most MCs on level 1 can't stun him back anyways. Potentially puts Daredevil in a position to do a lot of work the turn you play him, then Think Again MNB-024 to save him on defense seems pretty legit.
Bring in Daredevil on a later turn, put a token on him for Cap, then add three more with main Iron Man's Upgraded Armor.
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