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VS System 2PCG info released
Topic Started: May 27 2015, 12:20 AM (25,993 Views)
Speedy92286
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x_chan
Jul 8 2015, 11:10 PM
deviaan
Jul 8 2015, 10:13 PM
I also think they went about this the wrong way. A new name would have been better, but probably not gotten as much traction.

I don't think this game is better or worse, but just different. Some people will like it more some will like it less. I think the problem with OVS was that it was a niche game, especially at the end. Perhaps they feel that this new game will have broader appeal.

I wasn't aware of the Front Row/Support Row team attack change. Perhaps they believe it's easier to limit who can team attack than to have the players figure out who can be stunned during a team attack. I don't think it's that confusing, but maybe they do. Or maybe being able to to control who gets stunned during a team attack was deemed to powerful. Essentially giving your ranged guys a meat shield when attacking non-ranged guys.

The game is looking better to me, at least. It's not VS, it never was. But I think I'm ok with that now.
I think this should have been better as a whole new game too. There are stuff that's dead weight carried on from the old game, like the locations (they would have been perfect as energy cards) or the resource row. It kinda worries me, because the game could need some new stuff on the future to make it better (and I'm sure it will if it lasts long enough, which I have serious problems believing it), but they will be limited first by what the old VS had.

I'm also worried on the lack of a secondary win/lose condition. With how hard keeping board presence is going to be, how close are the stats between drops, how fast you'll go through your deck (7 initial + 2 cards each round), and how easy it seems to brickwall, you could perfectly end up with no cards or ways to stun your enemy MC.

For that reason I'm really curious on what superpowers and level up condition will Profesor X have with the already revealed 0/6 base stats. He is practically forcing the use of team attacks, superpowers, flight and pumps to stun him, all of those quite limited.
I have been wondering if Prof X's power is an alt win conditon as well since at the last con someone said that he mills. Emma fits that theme very well and with some more cards a mill theme could be viable since you draw two cards every turn and you only lose if your MC (which I assume would be a main milling source and win condition) is taken out.

If not this means games come down to who uses their cards at the right time and who will have the superior field. I think the game is fine without alt win conditions but those kinds of decks are always fun.
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KardKrazy
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Well that sucks how Plot Twist resolve.

Pretty much means we will never see any "negate" shenanigans. Those were always fun.

Also, I found it very odd they come up with a crappy name for this game with "2 Player Card Game" tacked on the end of Vs System. Yet at the end of the article they clearly have rules for 3 and 4 player versions of the game.
Quote:
 
Note: In a three or four player game, everyone gets a chance to affect the outcome. First the attacking player goes, then the order goes clockwise and continues on until everyone passes in succession.

As each week passes it makes me feel like they seem a bit more confused on what they want to do with this game :\.

And hell with it, since I'm being all negative Nancy. CAN THEY PLEASE FIRE WHOEVER DID THOSE CARD TEMPLATES?! lol...ok that's out of my system. But seriously, what the hell is up with the drop shadow from the Attack/Flight and Stats box being on Locations and Plot Twist? It looks beyond rushed and cheap. That literally takes a simple "click" of a mouse to hide that Layer before saving the image.
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BatHulk
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The more I think about it, locations are basically wild card Plot Twists that change based on your MC.

Seems like they needed a way to give the MC a special ability that didn't require exhausting it to activate it but also wanted to limit its use and randomize it a bit. Not sure how this will affect overall gameplay but it's an interesting way to go and will make deckbuilding different.

For sake of simplicity, I'm not really fond of them introducing new mechanics but I can see what they were trying to do.

While I understand the changes they did to "simplify" playing VS, it might be net zero considering the modifications to combat, MC abilities and location ratios for deck building.
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Vader
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Bat hulk u r mistakin others also have a problem with the resource row. I keep reading hoping that something that is brought out will change my thoughts on this game. I even have tried not looking at as a Vs game and still think this is a poorly designed game. The only thing I think that is an actual improvement orver the original is the range flight thing minus the limits to team attacking.

I haven't been posting much because I don't want to bring down the people who are excited about it
Edited by Vader, Jul 9 2015, 05:39 PM.
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Psychotime
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https://www.facebook.com/VsSystem2PCG/photos/a.782119235229276.1073741828.762608663847000/790772947697238/?type=1

Another team-stamped +1/+1 counter boost. This is getting boring.

You CAN show other kinds of plot twists, you know. Stuff that does other things?
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x_chan
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BatHulk
Jul 9 2015, 03:25 PM
The more I think about it, locations are basically wild card Plot Twists that change based on your MC.

Seems like they needed a way to give the MC a special ability that didn't require exhausting it to activate it but also wanted to limit its use and randomize it a bit. Not sure how this will affect overall gameplay but it's an interesting way to go and will make deckbuilding different.

For sake of simplicity, I'm not really fond of them introducing new mechanics but I can see what they were trying to do.

While I understand the changes they did to "simplify" playing VS, it might be net zero considering the modifications to combat, MC abilities and location ratios for deck building.
I agree with that. The new game didn't need locations at all, it needed energy cards. The only reason they used locations is because VS had them. If they hadn't based this on VS (which they shouldn't) but created it from the scratch I'm sure we would have had a different card type. That's why I don't like how the resource row currently is.

We could have had something different that interacted with the game in other means or ways. Something unique that could have improved the game experience giving it its own identity. But they went with the old system just to take everything that made it special to make it just bland and lame. We know it has potential for good stuff, but the game isn't ackowledging it or more likelly, the devs don't want it (they already said the old system was a big issue on VS, so why keep it?).

On another hand, we haven't seen any exhaustion related effect or any kind of payment effects that doesn't require energy to be used. I don't know if they are going to bring some of them back, but so far they seem to be gone for good.

They are focusing on combat and energy cards to balance and limit skills. Exhaustion would prevent the character to attack and would go against the whole game while unlimited superpowers could have a similar effect (Storm's comes to mind). So as long as there's no alternate win condition, you have no way to win without attacking (which also means you don't have a way to lose if you brickwall the attacks).
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Psychotime
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Jul 9 2015, 05:49 PM
But they went with the old system just to take everything that made it special to make it just bland and lame.
Everything that made VS 1.0 was taken piecemeal from existing games and reworked to fit a generic superhero theme.

The resource system was a simplified version of Duel Masters (itself an experiment by the Magic creators at making a different system from Magic's mana, which they now see as a mistake).

The combat system of rows was a simplified version of the Russian card game Berserk.

Initiative had existed in the Game of Thrones card game 2 years before VS released.

The chain is the exact same thing as Magic's stack.

Not a single thing in VS was original. Not in the slightest.

And I have to ask: What are those "things that made the game special that they took away" that you're talking about?
Edited by Psychotime, Jul 9 2015, 06:18 PM.
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x_chan
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Psychotime
Jul 9 2015, 06:12 PM
And I have to ask: What are those "things that made the game special that they took away" that you're talking about?
Calling old VS resource row a rip off of Duel Master's is a joke. This new game I could agree (which is what I'm angry about), but the old resource row worked completelly different. It was like a second hand. If you can't get that, go play VS again so you can figure it out.

And I find it kinda ironic that you are liking this new resource system when it acts exactly like Dual Master's, which you find a huge misstake.
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Psychotime
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The changes to the resource system in new VS are what separate it from Duel Masters.

Old VS's resource system was in fact a direct knock-off of what Duel Masters invented, with the removal of colors that served as thresholds. Everything else was exactly the same: You sacrifice a card in your hand to grant yourself a resource point for the rest of the game, and some cards have abilities while in that position.

Actually look at how Duel Masters worked and you'll see it. You clearly have not if you think that new VS works like Duel Masters.

The new VS incorporated elements of Pokemon on top of the existing Duel Masters template that old VS used.

I think that VS system's first iteration of it's resource system is a mistake for the exact same reasons that the Magic creators feel that Duel Masters' system was a mistake: Gameplay becomes repetitive and predictable after enough plays and the game becomes a chore. I realized that once I branched out to other games.

The ideas new VS decided to add are a bit of an improvement. It's not the best way, but it's a way to slow down some of the by-the-numbers gameplay that the old system accidentally endorsed.
Edited by Psychotime, Jul 9 2015, 06:55 PM.
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Speedy92286
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Jul 9 2015, 05:43 PM
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https://www.facebook.com/VsSystem2PCG/photos/a.782119235229276.1073741828.762608663847000/790772947697238/?type=1

Another team-stamped +1/+1 counter boost. This is getting boring.

You CAN show other kinds of plot twists, you know. Stuff that does other things?
Eh, I think it is to show that you can infact abuse cointers (iron man and hulk's abilities) by using more than one team. Also I think they might make characters more powerful by making plot twists more generic and boring. In theory this could be a good thing since you don't want too many plot twists in your hand; choosing what non location to put down as a resource will always be annoying in that scenario.
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Psychotime
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Personally, I felt that plot twists not costing resource points ended up preventing decks with a low character count from ever being viable without alot of support.

I get that the game is centered on character combat, but I always wished that there could have been an alternative playstyle that focused on plot twists over combat, and didn't outright punish you for not playing to curve each turn.

It's one of those kind of things I hoped would change, but ah well.
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Speedy92286
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Deck building is going to be interesting for sure. Especially without tutors I think having at least one character to play a turn is going to be even more important than ever. Decks are going to probably end up being half characters with the other half mostly being locations (16 most likely, maybe 12) leaving only room for 14, maybe 16 plot twists. This is why I would really love a full checklist/image gallery soon so we can start some real theory crafting.
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KardKrazy
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Speedy92286
Jul 9 2015, 07:49 PM
Especially without tutors I think having at least one character to play a turn is going to be even more important than ever...
Wait. When did they confirm no tutors?
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x_chan
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Psychotime
Jul 9 2015, 06:52 PM
The changes to the resource system in new VS are what separate it from Duel Masters.

Old VS's resource system was in fact a direct knock-off of what Duel Masters invented, with the removal of colors that served as thresholds. Everything else was exactly the same: You sacrifice a card in your hand to grant yourself a resource point for the rest of the game, and some cards have abilities while in that position.

Actually look at how Duel Masters worked and you'll see it. You clearly have not if you think that new VS works like Duel Masters.

The new VS incorporated elements of Pokemon on top of the existing Duel Masters template that old VS used.

I think that VS system's first iteration of it's resource system is a mistake for the exact same reasons that the Magic creators feel that Duel Masters' system was a mistake: Gameplay becomes repetitive and predictable after enough plays and the game becomes a chore. I realized that once I branched out to other games.

The ideas new VS decided to add are a bit of an improvement. It's not the best way, but it's a way to slow down some of the by-the-numbers gameplay that the old system accidentally endorsed.
I'm not saying the added energy cards aren't a good implementation or not, but they could have implemented an easy way to include them in how the VS System resource row worked (as easy as create a new card type called energy that could be used from both hand or resource row).

Right now, the resource row is as dead and stale as Duel Masters', while VS System was more than just a way to keep track of your resources. It acted as a secondary hand, allowing locations and plot twists to be played from there, but more importantly, it allowed mechanics like the Hellfire Club (increased bonuses from the number of locations you have), Avengers Reservists (benefits from having face down resources), replacing resources mechanics, etc.

They said the changes were intended as keeping track of what was faced down on your resource row was making matches longer than intended (I never had a problem with that, but whatever), but there was no reason to eliminate it's usefulness in order to amend that.

They could have perfectly implemented the new rules to the energy cards, meaning you play plot twists and locations faced up, and turn them down (if they are not ongoing effects) once activated. It would have solved the resource row checking problem, and while the resource row would have lost its surprise effect, it would have kept it's overall usefulness, allowing cards and mechanics to interact with it, and at the same time it would have created some interesting combat tensions and decitions, as you could see some of the plot twists your opponent could use against you (like you can see it's energy now), having to rethink your strategy or modify your play game (Can I successfully attack the opponent now? Will he use it or will he save it? How can I force him to use it now so I can do X next round? etc., which is there in some sort, but limited to only energy and superpowers)

I don't understand how they felt going the easy route and just simply eliminate any kind of (additional) use the resource row had was the best way to solve the issue of face down checks.

There are lots of changes that while answering some of the old issues, their implementation is not quite good. It seems they took the easy route in a lot of them and didn't thought them through.

I'm sure some of the reported issues could have been solved by minor changes to the rules (like the strike back rule, which I see myself using in VS system casual play) and some of the new mechanics could have been implemented in the old system in some way or another. I see no problem in adding the energy cards and superpowers into the old system, after all, they are just new payment powers and add some sort of luck to the game. And regarding the MC mechanics, we had something similar before witht the Alter Ego format. No reason why the new MC couldn't fit into a similar system.

But they changed too much stuff just for the sake of it and creating new problems through the process. It looks like they put extra effort in creating new stuff just so it's harder to play this with the old cards. Lots of those add more problems than they solve.
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Orange_Soda_Man
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KardKrazy
Jul 9 2015, 08:02 PM
Wait. When did they confirm no tutors?
If each team uses one of their 3 plot twists used up as a search effect that would be pretty limiting. It's possible for the effect to be on 4 of the 12 remaining location slots though.
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