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VS System 2PCG info released
Topic Started: May 27 2015, 12:20 AM (25,992 Views)
Speedy92286
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KardKrazy
Jul 9 2015, 08:02 PM
Speedy92286
Jul 9 2015, 07:49 PM
Especially without tutors I think having at least one character to play a turn is going to be even more important than ever...
Wait. When did they confirm no tutors?
They didn't but I am going to assume, as Orange said, that there are only 3 printed plot twists per team so I doubt one of them will be a tutor for each team. Unless there is a mobilize or enemy like search non team stamped plot twists I don't think tutors will exist in this set outside of character powered search effects.
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Psychotime
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I'm pretty sure tutors will still be a thing here and there, but with the rebalanced stat curve, the game won't need them nearly as much. Hopefully it's done sparingly and intelligently.

x_chan
Jul 9 2015, 08:51 PM
Right now, the resource row is as dead and stale as Duel Masters', while VS System was more than just a way to keep track of your resources. It acted as a secondary hand, allowing locations and plot twists to be played from there, but more importantly, it allowed mechanics like the Hellfire Club (increased bonuses from the number of locations you have), Avengers Reservists (benefits from having face down resources), replacing resources mechanics, etc.
They saw a problem: Playing plot twists from the resource row slows down the game by a considerable amount.

The point that it just became a second hand is evidence to WHY it shouldn't be part of the normal rules. It literally added nothing to the game outside of players checking their resources each turn and wasting time. Shouldn't cards IN HAND act as cards in hand? Was slowing down the game worth making a second hand that players have to constantly check? Doesn't that counter the concept of sacrificing cards for long-term investment?

It seems to me that the first attempt at the resource row was a situation of wanting to have your cake and eat it, too. With no regard to the gameplay consequences.

Their solution: Remove that option from the base game.

The assumption that they will NEVER explore the obvious design space of cards in your resource row is a silly one.

Going back to Duel Masters, they've spent years creating mechanics that utilize face down cards in the shield zone, as well as the cards put in the mana zone. There are cards that pay attention to the card types that you've made into resources (Fort Energy, Space Charge, Mana Arms), cards that replace them, cards that can be played from your resource row (Mana Reburst). Your insistence that these mechanics don't exist prove how little you know about what you're talking about.

The result of the mechanics being specialized to specific decktypes means that only decks MADE to use it will make sure to do so, meaning that there's much LESS chance for the game to get slowed down as opposed to every deck doing it. Think about it: When the only decks that use the resource row this way have a STRATEGIC reason to do it, they'll have set goals to think about, so they'll be flipping up and checking cards alot less than a game where everyone has to worry about doing it regardless of strategy.

There was no need for a second hand as a default rule. It just muddled the game. I understand why it's gone.
Edited by Psychotime, Jul 9 2015, 10:41 PM.
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KardKrazy
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Orange_Soda_Man
Jul 9 2015, 09:03 PM
KardKrazy
Jul 9 2015, 08:02 PM
Wait. When did they confirm no tutors?
If each team uses one of their 3 plot twists used up as a search effect that would be pretty limiting. It's possible for the effect to be on 4 of the 12 remaining location slots though.
Interesting. I personally would be shocked if there is not a generic Land tutor.
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Speedy92286
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Maybe the non basic locations can search?
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Hank McCoy
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So far the only non basic locations are the Wild Locations. Personally I hope for less generic tutors (Mobilize, EOME), always my least favorite card design in any game.
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KardKrazy
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Hank McCoy
Jul 10 2015, 03:22 PM
So far the only non basic locations are the Wild Locations. Personally I hope for less generic tutors (Mobilize, EOME), always my least favorite card design in any game.
Ah...yeah different strokes for different folks.

EomE and Mobilize were some of my favorite cards in Vs. Especially EomE...loved some of the decks that were spawned from it.
Edited by KardKrazy, Jul 10 2015, 03:53 PM.
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Speedy92286
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I agree with Hank. I rather draw more and have more tricks in the deck than consistency but I am just a baddie sometimes. i think there will be tutors via characterscat least but I don't think we will get a generic search. If we do, great. If not oh well; just going to try to build it as well as I can without a tutor.
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Psychotime
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Quote:
 
Another Main Character Preview coming in a few hours. Today's Main Character Level 1 Preview is the ONLY Main Character who has a "Level Up" XP Requirement of 1. That's right, you only have to fulfill his Level Up requirement ONE TIME in order to level up to Level 2!

Who could it be? Here's a hint - out of the 16 Main Characters, he's the shortest. What Level Up XP requirement could our mad genius designers have come up with that you only have to do ONE TIME??? Here's another hint - it's kind of related to this week's Preview article. Let us know your guesses in the comments below, and find out later today if you're right!


Rocket Raccoon getting a counter.
Edited by Psychotime, Jul 10 2015, 06:04 PM.
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Speedy92286
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Well that would be interesting. Also seems terribly easy to do. Not really sure though. Might be over analyzing.
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x_chan
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Psychotime
Jul 9 2015, 09:58 PM
There was no need for a second hand as a default rule. It just muddled the game. I understand why it's gone.

The assumption that they will NEVER explore the obvious design space of cards in your resource row is a silly one.
I understand why they needed to tweak it, but I don't get why removing it from the game was the best solution. I already mentioned how they could have implemented a solution to the problem without having to change how the resoruce row worked. So it has to be something else (or that they just went the easy route because reasons...)

And regarding the last quote, changing how locations and plot twist work makes me think they have no intention to use the obvious design space. Or why change the rules at all to get them back some time later?

Right now, plot twists can't be used from the resource row and locations are a one time only effect. That's in the rule book, I don't see how they will implement ongoing locations (unless they create a new type of card, which would make even more obvious that the new locations are just energy cards) or allow plot twists to be played from the resource row under those new rules. They even changed how keywords work (so terraform doesn't seem likelly to come back) to become just power names.

Maybe some MC or PT will just say "You can play plot twists from the resource row", but then they will have to create a rule that says how that happens. Will they work like the enegy cards being played face up and turn them face down after activation? Or will they work like the old system? I don't know right now, but to me it seems really unlikelly.
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BatHulk
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x_chan
Jul 10 2015, 07:58 PM
And regarding the last quote, changing how locations and plot twist work makes me think they have no intention to use the obvious design space. Or why change the rules at all to get them back some time later?
Because it's an introduction set.

Like most games, you can always add/change rules and mechanics later.
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Right now, plot twists can't be used from the resource row and locations are a one time only effect. That's in the rule book, I don't see how they will implement ongoing locations (unless they create a new type of card, which would make even more obvious that the new locations are just energy cards) or allow plot twists to be played from the resource row under those new rules. They even changed how keywords work (so terraform doesn't seem likelly to come back) to become just power names.

Again, rules can be changed.

You seem to be against open design space. You can't close off a system too much or it becomes restrictive, you have to allow for rules to evolve or change. At the same time, you can't introduce too many mechanics because it will limit accessibility.

This was one of my original critiques of OVS (kudos to whoever coined that term, it's much easier to type than Vs 1.0), they started it off with too many "things" a player had to manage.
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Maybe some MC or PT will just say "You can play plot twists from the resource row", but then they will have to create a rule that says how that happens. Will they work like the enegy cards being played face up and turn them face down after activation? Or will they work like the old system? I don't know right now, but to me it seems really unlikelly.

They could. But that's the beauty of leaving it out there so if they want to, they have the capacity to do so.

If they got rid of the resource row, that would make it harder to bring back Ongoing Locations/PTs or any of the resource row shenanigans.

One aspect they can introduce without changing any rules and being too complex is the Squadron Supreme resource mechanic. The can't do that at all if they removed the resource row.
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BatHulk
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Vader
Jul 9 2015, 05:38 PM
Bat hulk u r mistakin others also have a problem with the resource row. I keep reading hoping that something that is brought out will change my thoughts on this game. I even have tried not looking at as a Vs game and still think this is a poorly designed game. The only thing I think that is an actual improvement orver the original is the range flight thing minus the limits to team attacking.

I haven't been posting much because I don't want to bring down the people who are excited about it
So you want to remove the resource row like x_chan does?

I didn't say no one had issues with how the resource row is being used but x_chan doesn't even think they should have a resource row.

And again, I said "minority"... and so far, at least from what I see here and on the Facebook page, I don't see too many people saying that they should just remove the resource row.
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Speedy92286
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Rocket is up!
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Psychotime
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Posted Image

That's a poor utilization of an otherwise good image. Other than that, I love the flavor of his level up. Rocket is Hellbent on kicking ass.

The more I think about it the harder it looks to get Rocket's level up to go off. I'll just have to play it to see how to make it work.

Why didn't they write his full name?
Edited by Psychotime, Jul 10 2015, 10:10 PM.
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x_chan
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BatHulk
Jul 10 2015, 08:57 PM
You seem to be against open design space.
Maybe I'm not explaining myself. I'm not against open design space, I'm more like trying to promote it. The resource row and other stuff that's been brought from OVS is limiting them badly, and to me it's been proven by the fact they called the new energy cards locations.

Having that in mind, what I want is not that they eliminate the resource row per se, but that they had imagined this new game as if VS never existed. And let's be honest, this game resemblance to VS is quite anecdotical and could be linked to a dozens other games too.

What's the impact of removing the resource row? Do we need it in the first place? Does the new game need resources? If so, how would the new game generate them? If not, how would the game play itself? Can we imagine something nice for the game? Could a side deck generate the needed resources? Or a permanent team stamped or MC related location generate them? Would that introuduce some other factors that could make the game more random, but at the same time avoiding mana flood/screw? Or what about main characters? Could they be the source of the resources? If not, is a face down resource row the best solution or would it be better face up? What impacts has each of those options? Will we want them face down for future uses? What can be those uses? Etc.

If after asking some of those questions, the game still needs a resource row like the one it has, then I don't have a problem. But to me it looks like the resource system the new game has is just a dead weight brought from OVS. And that is limiting them badly.
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