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VS System 2PCG info released
Topic Started: May 27 2015, 12:20 AM (25,991 Views)
OMB
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Just popping by again to say how much I hate the overuse of counters in this new game. It's going to be total BS if the box doesn't come with at least like 10-15 "+" counters, 5-10 "-" counters, and 10 "wound" counters included.
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x_chan
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Jul 10 2015, 10:32 PM
Just popping by again to say how much I hate the overuse of counters in this new game. It's going to be total BS if the box doesn't come with at least like 10-15 "+" counters, 5-10 "-" counters, and 10 "wound" counters included.
This is one of the things I want them to clarify. If their aim was to make stuff less complicated and more friendly, they sure didn't succeeded with all those counters.

What was the point in changing endurance to Health? What does it bring to the game? Why is this better than giving the MC endurance like the Alter Egos and eliminate breakthough damage and SC stun damage so the only way to reduce the endurance would be to stun the MC (much like it's working now, but could have allowed the introduction of burning teams if needed plus the use of the MC and some SC -with adapted stats- on casual OVS)?

Was the board pressence an issue on OVS? Were they trying to amend it by creating a way to KO characters immediatelly? Won't this create other issues in the proccess?
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Speedy92286
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Psychotime
Jul 10 2015, 09:46 PM
Posted Image

That's a poor utilization of an otherwise good image. Other than that, I love the flavor of his level up. Rocket is Hellbent on kicking ass.

The more I think about it the harder it looks to get Rocket's level up to go off. I'll just have to play it to see how to make it work.

Why didn't they write his full name?
I feel like Marvek took Racoon out of his name and have just kept calling him Rocket since Bendis started the reboot of the series. As for Rocket's ability, if you keep your locations in your hand and recruit a lot of low costs I feel he will level up fsst.
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Psychotime
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Jul 10 2015, 10:50 PM
What was the point in changing endurance to Health? What does it bring to the game? Why is this better than giving the MC endurance like the Alter Egos and eliminate breakthough damage and SC stun damage so the only way to reduce the endurance would be to stun the MC (much like it's working now, but could have allowed the introduction of burning teams if needed plus the use of the MC and some SC -with adapted stats- on casual OVS)?
Endurance and Health have nothing in common with each other.

Many games have a Health/HP concept, but in this case it's similar to the wound mechanic from Call of Cthulhu.

Seems to me that it's a flavorful way of getting around the crippling feelbad that the original recover system had while adding design space and most importantly flavor.

In superhero stories, characters get their asses kicked all the time! They don't always win every fight. But what happens? They regroup and get back into the fight.

Did it ever make sense when your Defenders team gets wiped out and you have to choose between Hulk and Silver Surfer as to who gets back up? Aren't those two characters that can take more than enough beatings before they're finished? Why is only one an option?

Look at what health does now! It makes it so some characters can take more beatings than others, and helps characters stick around longer.

It's more or less an extension of why stunning existed in the original game. In early playtests of the original VS, characters died constantly. For a big superhero game about playing your favorite characters, it's a bit disappointing to play your favorite only to see them get killed immediately. And so stunning and recovering was their solution.

The only thing is that it didn't 100% fix the original problem. Adding health just improves the idea further.

And the best part is that wounds under this system are much easier to track than the damage counters of other games like Warhammer Conquest. One stun means one wound. No other damage tracking to be done.

I ended up thinking of applying the EXACT same thing to my personal project, and it's not surprising that new VS decided to use it. It's such a no-brainer of an idea that I'd have been surprised if they DIDN'T do it.

The removal of endurance wasn't a necessary change, but it makes perfect sense to remove it once the game became centered around main characters that each player chooses to start with. I personally dislike the concept because it makes the game focus on only the most popular characters, which I think is a bad idea in a game based on existing properties.

Regardless, when each player's avatar is a character card in play that attacks and defends, the concept of a life total outside of that character becomes completely arbitrary in a flavor sense. What would endurance represent? The player? No, that's what the main character is. A central hub or fortress that the characters are protecting? What are my locations, then?
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BatHulk
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@x_chan:

You really are missing the point.

At it's simplest, it's a way to keep track of what turn and how many resource points you have without needing an extra counter (stop thinking of this as a computer game).

Additionally, it's a place holder for locations (regardless of their use) that is sensical.

And, even without effects that manipulate cards in the resource row, you can immediately apply Squadron Supreme type thresholds to add another twist to the game (have you ever played Squad?).

Lastly, it doesn't limit the designers from using the resource row later to change rules, add effects or even re-introduce ongoing PTs (without a resource row, where would you put them?).

And yes, it is reminiscent of OVS, which to me is a good thing.
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x_chan
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Jul 11 2015, 02:21 AM
In superhero stories, characters get their asses kicked all the time! They don't always win every fight. But what happens? They regroup and get back into the fight.

Did it ever make sense when your Defenders team gets wiped out and you have to choose between Hulk and Silver Surfer as to who gets back up? Aren't those two characters that can take more than enough beatings before they're finished? Why is only one an option?

Look at what health does now! It makes it so some characters can take more beatings than others, and helps characters stick around longer.
Well, it's hard to see that with almost all the revealed characters having only 1 health (which means they are immediatelly KOd), even those with a cost of 7.

So if my Loki is stunned, he has no chance to come back at all, while before, he could. I don't see that as an imrpovement. Yes, you can recover more than 1 stunned character now, but the chances of you having more than one are pretty slim.... At least by what's revealed so far and what they said on the first article (many characters have 1 health).

@BatHulk. Yes, I get that. I'm just sad that they seem to have put 0 effort in it. It's as plain and simple as it can get. Yes, it has room to improve, but right now it's boring.

And I'm not thinking this is a computer game. Netrunner, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Star Wars, basically almost any LCG card game has it's own "unique" resource system. Some use tokens others not. VS 2PCG main competition is FF. The game looks bland and poorly designed when compared to those. They doesn't even aknowledge that (I mean, how long does it take to see if LCG is trademarked?). From the stupid name, the unfinished card frames, the lack of art credits to how locations ended up being just energy cards, to the unimaginative resource system or how the first core set has at most 86 diffrerent playable cards, but is trying to support 30 different "strategies" (MCs).

To my point of view, the game is not ready to be competitive against none of the existing game in any kind of format. It's main attraction is the marvel characters, but that is not reflected in the name and hasn't proven enough in the past. They main hope was to attract old VS players so the game had some kind of base. They even asked money from them, just to spit in their faces months later.
Edited by x_chan, Jul 11 2015, 07:26 AM.
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Psychotime
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x_chan
Jul 11 2015, 06:10 AM
Well, it's hard to see that with almost all the revealed characters having only 1 health (which means they are immediatelly KOd), even those with a cost of 7.
As of today they have revealed seven supporting character cards.

Of those only three have 1 health. The remaining four have 2-3.

Abomination
Sabertooth
Beast
Emma Frost

Each characters that make sense to be able to come back after a beating.

The one's that don't?

Daredevil
Captain America
Loki

2 of them are peak humans.

As for the god Loki, I'm pretty sure the intended audience for new VS has this image in their head.

Posted Image

It looks more and more that you just want to complain for it's own sake.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot Colossus.

A 7/7 that can turn into a 12/12 any combat MIGHT be the kind of card that'd be unbalanced if it had more than 1 health. Just something to think about.

These support cards have me thinking, though. I'm going to guess that they're going to go the Game of Thrones way of making new versions of characters. In that game the copies-per-deck rule applies to names, so even though they make a new version of a unique character, they aren't treated as different cards for deckbuilding.
Edited by Psychotime, Jul 11 2015, 04:52 PM.
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x_chan
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Well, I got some more information from some playtesters that were kind enough to help me understand what was going on.

The game started production 2 years ago. UDE wanted to benefit from MCU success (who wouldn't) and was willing to produce a new TCG game. Since WoW TCG was their best selling playing card game, they wanted to repeat that success too. So they basically started designing a WoW TCG with Marvel cards (that's why we have health and Main characters, and I guess energy was a part of that game too).

After a year of succesful playtesting, they decided to bring the VS community in, to see if they would be on board with the new project. That's when the GenCon announcement was made. The game was going to be produced either way, they just wanted to see if the VS fan base was supporting it or not. From the response, the game would be called VS (and some little changes would be made) or something else. We were fools enough to buy into it.

That's all I needed to know. The game was never meant to be a VS refactor but something else. That's why there are so many changes that I couldn't understand where they were comming from.

Aside from that, I got some information that could be of your interest. This is from the playtesters, so the final product might be slightly different.

- Single target attacks are classified as ranged if the character has range, no matter what row the character is. The rows are only a factor during team attacks, to prevent confusion (?).

- The core set is meant to support 4 decks. To do so, each one of it will have access to 20 locations. 16 basic ones plus 4 wild. The diversity will be granted by the MC characters as the decks are meant to play differently due to them. So they assume there will be 15 different strategies from the 4 different decks.

- There will never be alternate win conditions. The game is meant to be a combat game. Alternate win conditions like burning mechanics will work against it, so they will not support them (at least from now).

- The resource row is meant to stay dead (at least from now). It over complicated stuff and was making the game less newie friendly.

- The reason behind the recover all is meant to reduce the choices the player makes outside the combat or formation phase. Formation step and combat are what matters now.

- The rules haven't been clear about what happens if both MC get stunned and KOd at the same time or if the players have no way to stun the oponent (no cards and MC can't stun each other). Hopefully they had taken those cases into consideration, but from experience they don't happen often.

- Despite the new format, the game is meant to compete against traditional CCG and not against LCG, because what FF is doing is just plain terrible. It will never be a competition.

Overall, 9 out of 10 old VS players love this new version more. From those who will hate it, they are sure 15 new players will be brought in. The game is expected to be their biggest hit ever.
Edited by x_chan, Jul 11 2015, 09:18 PM.
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Vader
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Bat hulk For me it's not just the resource row it's everything they have done. I know most of you talking here are excited for having a new game to play but I am having a real problem with the design choices. I don't understand why they said combat was to hard but they have created a system that I don't think is any easier than the one we had in place. The resource row wasn't that complicated and was a way to get the most out of the cards you draw. Why did they get rid of the endurance system it is easier than having to have wounds counters on every character that doesn't auto ko. The fact that you no long have a choice when a character would be Koed is so limiting on deck building. I can no longer build a radiation man because he would be Koed to easily. The fact that the game limits the ability to interact outside of combat( no shared turn, no negation cards, exhaust effects, ect) make for a much less fun game for me because it cuts down on the variety of types of decks that can be played.

To me Vs system used to be like Legos in the sense that you could build anything, now this new game feels like taking a couple hot wheels and just smashing them together over and over. Repetitive and boring.
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xMr. Lemon Headx
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Jul 11 2015, 08:54 PM
Bat hulk For me it's not just the resource row it's everything they have done. I know most of you talking here are excited for having a new game to play but I am having a real problem with the design choices. I don't understand why they said combat was to hard but they have created a system that I don't think is any easier than the one we had in place. The resource row wasn't that complicated and was a way to get the most out of the cards you draw. Why did they get rid of the endurance system it is easier than having to have wounds counters on every character that doesn't auto ko. The fact that you no long have a choice when a character would be Koed is so limiting on deck building. I can no longer build a radiation man because he would be Koed to easily. The fact that the game limits the ability to interact outside of combat( no shared turn, no negation cards, exhaust effects, ect) make for a much less fun game for me because it cuts down on the variety of types of decks that can be played.

To me Vs system used to be like Legos in the sense that you could build anything, now this new game feels like taking a couple hot wheels and just smashing them together over and over. Repetitive and boring.
Says the guy who has never actually played the game. Why can't people just wait, try the game, and then give all the negative feedback their hearts desire?

A lot of you seem to be missing the fact that this is the FIRST set. It is going to be very simplistic. Maybe some of you haven't experienced first sets of card games or maybe it is ignorance. Smh

Nevertheless, this game could be terrible and not even last a whole year, or it could be extremely successful and become even more popular than OVS. Who knows? I don't and neither do any of you. However, if it does end up having longevity and becomes successful, I will make sure that everyone on these forums is aware of it! If it does not, I will move on with my life, as some of you should with OVS.

LEMON OUT [coolguy]
Edited by xMr. Lemon Headx, Jul 11 2015, 10:46 PM.
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x_chan
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Jul 11 2015, 10:44 PM
Says the guy who has never actually played the game. Why can't people just wait, try the game, and then give all the negative feedback their hearts desire?

A lot of you seem to be missing the fact that this is the FIRST set. It is going to be very simplistic. Maybe some of you haven't experienced first sets of card games or maybe it is ignorance. Smh

Nevertheless, this game could be terrible and not even last a whole year, or it could be extremely successful and become even more popular than OVS. Who knows? I don't and neither do any of you. However, if it does end up having longevity and becomes successful, I will make sure that everyone on these forums is aware of it! If it does not, I will move on with my life, as some of you should with OVS.

LEMON OUT [coolguy]
The problem is that they said they were bringing VS back not that they were creating a whole new different game, which is what they ended up (and started) doing. I think no one can't deny that. The fact that the new game has VS in it's name is anecdotical.

So every time new information is released, we get confused, as we are trying to make sense of it thinking as if this was still VS.

I think they would have saved themselves lots of troubles and anger had they decided to call this (Marvel) Heroes Fight or something like that. But they had to reach out to the VS community with false promises and lies. Sad as it is, we are the ones to blame for trusting them and buying the VS boxes last year. If we hadn't showed up interest, this game would have been called something else because was set to be released either way, and we would have moved on eventually, probably due to the new game picking our interest (or not).

From my point of view, the game doesn't give me anything the old VS gave me. I was never into combat. I never used a single attacking pump despise having 4x Savage Beatdown, because attacking was never of my interest, as combo and alternate win conditions decks were my weaknesses. This game seems boring to me right now, as combat is all it seems to care. That might change in time with the introduction of future sets, but until then, I don't think I'll enjoy this.
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OMB
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Jul 11 2015, 07:34 PM
Well, I got some more information from some playtesters that were kind enough to help me understand what was going on.

The game started production 2 years ago. UDE wanted to benefit from MCU success (who wouldn't) and was willing to produce a new TCG game. Since WoW TCG was their best selling playing card game, they wanted to repeat that success too. So they basically started designing a WoW TCG with Marvel cards (that's why we have health and Main characters, and I guess energy was a part of that game too).

After a year of succesful playtesting, they decided to bring the VS community in, to see if they would be on board with the new project. That's when the GenCon announcement was made. The game was going to be produced either way, they just wanted to see if the VS fan base was supporting it or not. From the response, the game would be called VS (and some little changes would be made) or something else. We were fools enough to buy into it.
Obviously I dunno the reliability of your sources on this, but if this is true it's kind of a dick move by Upperdeck.

But hey, it's Upperdeck, so why expect anything less?
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Speedy92286
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@x-chan. That is probably true. I can't really fault them since VS has been dead for so long yet the player base was still there. Last year at Gen Con they tested the waters to see if people would still buy a game similar to VS (they said last year the cards would not be compatible with the old ones and I think they did say things would change) so people who spent money voted yes. I am not surprised that the game was already in mind; this way if people bought last year's product or not, they would have something to sell this year.

Is it shady? Sure but many businesses do shady things, so I am not surprised. Hell this could have been just callrd Marvel 2pcg and I would have played but they used a label that many have been dying to return so that was smart. Yeah, the game is different but I see where the changes came from so I do see this as VS 2.0. I guess I am one of the 9/10 players that like the changes.
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x_chan
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Jul 12 2015, 12:24 PM
@x-chan. That is probably true. I can't really fault them since VS has been dead for so long yet the player base was still there. Last year at Gen Con they tested the waters to see if people would still buy a game similar to VS (they said last year the cards would not be compatible with the old ones and I think they did say things would change) so people who spent money voted yes. I am not surprised that the game was already in mind; this way if people bought last year's product or not, they would have something to sell this year.

Is it shady? Sure but many businesses do shady things, so I am not surprised. Hell this could have been just callrd Marvel 2pcg and I would have played but they used a label that many have been dying to return so that was smart. Yeah, the game is different but I see where the changes came from so I do see this as VS 2.0. I guess I am one of the 9/10 players that like the changes.
Like I said, they could have called this something else and I'm sure everyone would have been ok. I understand some see where the changes come from. I didn't and got me confused. Everything felt different without a clear reason why. Now I know the reason. I can move on.

One thing is saying that the cards will not be compatible just to give everyone a clean slate but opens the posibility for casual play (with the small changes they told us that were comming) and the other is create a whole new game from scratch. You can say that for you, this is VS, but for me, there's nothing in it that reminds me of it. We didn't wanted the label to come back, we wanted the game that we loved to do so. Yes, some changes were needed, but they didn't even try to implement them under the old system. They took the WoW TCG system and added some VS features in it to. I can't blame them, as WoW was more successful for them, but the result is something completelly different than what would have been had they decided to really redo VS in the first place. That explains almost all the changes the game has experienced, and I'm sure Raid decks are comming and what's what was hinted with the last article (gmaes with 3-4 players).

I liked some of the changes and think they would have given the original system a new fresh start. MC characters are an improvement over the Alter Egos, the strike back rules were something needed and the energy cards would have given the game some extra randomness. All those changes would have been really easy to adapt into the old game. Even the curve stats changes would have been something really easy to modify for casual players and would separate the old cards and the new ones completelly so no confusion would be caused, while solving the hitting the curve problems. But the health system which forces you to combat, the resource row changes, the plot twists and chain changes, the shared turn removal, team attack limitations and the destruction of the locations make most of what made VS special for me completelly destroyed (stall, combo, burning, resource manipulation, negation effects, second win conditions, etc.).

So I'm not sure what I will do. I wanted to play a Marvel game with the chance at Firefly characters popping in, but this looks as bland and boring as any other mainstream game for me. I understand this is what people want, because it's the same people that love Magic and Yugioh, but I'm just not into it. So my only hope is that they change almost all the rules back to what they were in time, so other playing styles can be supported. But that's really unlikelly to happen soon or at all, so sadly, I'm one of the 1/10 players that didn't like the changes.
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Speedy92286
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Understandable. The lack of a second win condition made me a little sad since I love those style decks. The lack of a chain is also weird since most tcg's have them. I think two of my friends who played VS probably won't play this without a lot of convincing since the chain was one thing I loved. Made free for alls interesting.

All of the other changes are not terrible. They turned locations into a mix of plot twist/one time resource so I actually like them more and having a MC feels more thematic than endurance. Especially for villains. If the big bad goes down everyone else scatters. Seperate turns is just better because it gives both players equal chances to attack. With the shared turn if it isn't your initative your whole field can get stunned and you have no attack. That isn't very fun.

So overall I agree with all changes besides the lack of a chain. Seems just silly to remove it.
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