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| VS System 2PCG info released | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 27 2015, 12:20 AM (25,987 Views) | |
| Psychotime | Jul 16 2015, 02:50 AM Post #556 |
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I'm pretty sure the fact that ranged characters can still do melee attacks caused legitimate confusion (and possibly cheating) in playtesting. Player 1: "You can't stun him back cause he's got range." Player 2:"Yes I can, he's in the front row performing a melee attack." Player 1: (Raises hand) "JUDGE!" Later in the game. Imagine Player 2 is an asshole now. Player 1: "Wait a minute, how did you stun my guy last turn?" Player 2: "He was with other melee attackers so he counted as melee too." Player 1: (Raises hand) "JUDGE!" Edited by Psychotime, Jul 16 2015, 02:51 AM.
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| KardKrazy | Jul 16 2015, 03:43 AM Post #557 |
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Most of the attacking stuff makes sense flavor wise but one situation does not. Character A is in your Front Row with Range but can't attack Character B in the opposing Back Row because Character B's owner has Character C in the Front Row. -Fine makes a little sense because you are technically "melee attacking" even though it could be argued you are still using your gun/handblaster. Character A is in your Back Row with Range but can't attack Character B in the opposing Back Row because Character B's owner has Character C in the Front Row. -Doesn't make any sense because I'm shooting attacks at Character B with my gun/blasters and somehow Character C can block my shots at them regardless of where they are positioned in the Front Row. In the end, like Psycho posted, this is going to get ugly in game play. I can imagine a lot of the "younger audience" this game is obviously trying to please is going to get frustrated at times because of them trying to keep track of who has Flight, who doesn't have Flight, who has Range, and who doesn't have Range. Edited by KardKrazy, Jul 16 2015, 04:07 AM.
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| x_chan | Jul 16 2015, 05:23 AM Post #558 |
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Well, I don't get the point on making it so complicated on the first place. I understand why they can't team attack when in different rows makes it simple, as it wouldn't fit their self created distinction otherwise (which would have been a sign that it wasn't a good idea). Making that distinction is simply saying that Cyclops and Emma can't work together, Rocket and Groot neither nor Iron Man and Captain. It will cause confusion as it goes against the comicverse and MCU common sense. But that doesn't really matter. The changes to flight and range were complex enough and will take time to get use to, there was no need to add more complexity by separating attacks into ranged and melee, as they don't add anything interesting. You say it's being needed becase they run effects based on the type of combat, but I'm pretty sure they could have worded all of them differently had the distinction not been there, and the effects would have stayed the same. |
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| Psychotime | Jul 16 2015, 05:27 AM Post #559 |
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Try it out, if you really think so. |
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| BatHulk | Jul 16 2015, 06:06 AM Post #560 |
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@x_chan: Can I ask you if you have ever designed a card game? I ask because I know many people (including myself) who think it's pretty easy but when you actually do it, it's much harder. Just FYI but I've worked on several games, one of them was actually semi-popular for a time (but it was really badly designed). You always say "they could/should have done this/that" but it's not that simple. Your opinion of removing the resource row already makes me suspect. Just trying to get some context here. For all I know you are a lead designer for WotC. |
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| x_chan | Jul 16 2015, 06:11 AM Post #561 |
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Something like this? Strike back: Against a character with Range, the defender only gets to strike back if it also has Range. Dodge: He can't be attacked by characters in the back row. Ferocious: He strikes back before enemy characters. Dust of death: Stun a character in the front row that's attacking Red Skull. Monstrous: When he is team attacked, he strikes back against each character if able. |
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| BatHulk | Jul 16 2015, 06:18 AM Post #562 |
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As a judge, I would use the following explanation: For an attack to be called a Ranged attack isn't because the characters have Ranged, it's because they attacked from the back row. But, in order for them to attack from the back row, they have to have Ranged. Defenders in a Ranged attack cannot strike back unless they also have Ranged. I will concede that maybe they could have called a back row attack Distance attack so that you don't confuse the Ranged ability with the row your are attacking from. Additionally, any attack from the front row, it's a Melee attack, regardless of the character has Ranged or not. I would just look at what type of attack and then see if the defender has ranged in order to determine strike back capability. It's confusing now, but will become instinctual as you play more games. I agree that it could be a bit complex but as you see the cards on the table, I think it will make more sense and be easier to explain. |
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| BatHulk | Jul 16 2015, 06:22 AM Post #563 |
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Sure, but most games like to use keywords to simplify templating. It's easier to say "Melee Attack" than "characters attacking from the front row". But yes, maybe they should have just said "Front Attack" and "Back Attack". |
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| x_chan | Jul 16 2015, 06:49 AM Post #564 |
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I have no problem in creating keywords to simplify templating. My problem is when those keywords don't really simplify, but make things more confusing. Why can't characters in different rows team attack? Because we don't know what to call them. I hope there's other reasons, but right now, that seems to be it. Like you said, they could have used something like "front row attacker/defender" or "back row attacker/defender". It works better as it allows team attacks, and it's less stuff to remember for new players (which I thought they wanted to). |
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| Psychotime | Jul 16 2015, 07:01 AM Post #565 |
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Notice how awkwardly that text becomes to grok now? It removes the flavor and makes it confusing, even though it's doing a very simple thing. It's the same problem as the basic locations over energy cards. What about being in the back row prevents this character from being attacked, and what does the name "Dodge" have to do with it? He can't dodge a front row attack? What is it about a front row attacker that makes Red Skull's power work? What is it about the row that makes it so special? What does it mean? Notice how old VS never had abilities like Dodge, and only made two cards in the entire game that did anything close to what Dust of Death does? (Those cards being Annihilus, Destroyer of Life and Blackfire, Komand'r; both cards from Origins sets) Did you ever wonder why? |
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| Speedy92286 | Jul 16 2015, 01:27 PM Post #566 |
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The problem with combining range and melee team attacking together is that if you are attacking a front row character without range the opponent is forced to stun back only your melee attacker. It can work but just makes team attacking and choosing who to stun back messy. It is a lot cleaner and simplier to have all ranged or all melee so this way cards can improve or not be affected by a certain kind of attack (Dodge on Red Skull will not work if you can combine melee and ranged attacks at once. I personally love the changes but it does take some gstting used to. |
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| vssystemnPoland | Jul 16 2015, 02:28 PM Post #567 |
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As we're seeing more and more cards from this release set it has definitely piqued our interest. The one question I still have (it may have already been answered) is whether or not there will be expansions to this game? Are there booster boxes planned with more character/plot twists/locations, alt art cards, foil cards, etc. Or, is this a game of 400 cards in the box, and that's all that there will ever be? |
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| x_chan | Jul 16 2015, 02:39 PM Post #568 |
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How does make it messy? You can only stun back characters without range. No matter where they are. There's no choice involved, so it should be a lot more simple. Now it's messy, because like it's been said, characters with range can be striked back if they are in the front row. They are not range attacking even though they have range. And regarding Red Skull, it would work perfectly. The character with range or in the back row would not be able to team attack him, so the attack would not be legal. What's the problem with that? Why do you say it wouldn't work? I understand how it works now. Making team attacks from different rows was not fitting their self imposed distinction, so better remove them (it seems like a pattern, something is causing them troubles, better remove them then). That should have been a sign that the distinction was not good in the first place, and I haven't seen a power that wouldn't work without it otherwise. I already exemplified how the ones we know could have avoided that and kept the powers similar to what they are now, so they can still affect or alter some of them when they want to making all team attacks possible (which would be more flavourful). |
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| KardKrazy | Jul 16 2015, 03:02 PM Post #569 |
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It's going to be a Living Card Game but just not called a Living Card Game. UDE has stated that there will be more sets if this first set sells good. But it will not always be Marvel cards. They will utilize things like Firefly, Aliens, Predator, etc...to make up other sets. I personally have not been overly impressed by the previews and massive changes to the Vs mechanics to accommodate this particular card game (even to the point had I not made Hotel reservations with friends and we 3 having purchased our Gen Con tickets I would not be going). So unless playing the game at Gen Con heavily sways my opinion I'll just be one and done and stick with Hearthstone. There will never be "booster boxes". The game will release in sets where each time it cost $49.99 and you get a play set of each card in the set for that price. Edited by KardKrazy, Jul 16 2015, 03:03 PM.
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| Psychotime | Jul 16 2015, 03:22 PM Post #570 |
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I'm pretty sure their expansion model with the exact same as it is in Legendary, which imitates the model of LCGs already: Base sets are $50-$60, small expansions for $20. Base sets are very few and far between. Expansion sets in LCGs have less cards because there's less need for filler to round out a set. I can easily see the expansions basically being the same concept and price as the Hellboy Essential set. Speaking of which, I REALLY hope we can get some Hellboy again. And thinking of Legendary, how about VS gets a Maximum Carnage set that actually matches the comics this time. That'd be nice. Edited by Psychotime, Jul 16 2015, 03:47 PM.
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