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VS System 2PCG info released
Topic Started: May 27 2015, 12:20 AM (26,019 Views)
Wallywest1988
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VS had issues. People need to remember the game has its flaws. New changes make for a faster paced game. Better competitive experience with best of 3 being an option along with potential side decks.

Remember losing cuz you didn't get odds in old day VS? Not fun times.

Champion Heroes will make deck building a blast.

It helps to realize that old VS was never coming back. Some games don't come back at all. I am pretty excited to dive into new VS but also glad I held on to my entire collection of old VS after they announced the reboot.
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-TK-
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BatHulk
Jun 1 2015, 12:49 PM
As I've monitored this forum activity over the years, is it fair to say that the number of Vs 1.0 stalwarts has dwindled to a number that is probably much less than potential new players and players who are willing to play the new Vs?

12 years in gaming is a generational leap and as much as I think these changes should have been done while Vs was an active game, I feel that these *had* to be done or else it would not even be worth releasing it.

Maybe that was the thought process behind last year's "living" TCG announcement and now. That the game had to evolve or stay dead.

Would you rather it not come out at all? UDE's legal issues and reputation aside, if I had the means to acquire the Vs engine rights, I probably would have done the same thing, still call it Vs to appeal to the nostalgic but make it viable for today's gamers because it does have to compete with so many more things (mobile gaming did not exist 12 years ago).
The "why" they did is perfectly clear to everyone. They think this way they can trick old players into the game, while presenting something new to players that don't know how they are bad at this.

I mean, it's not rocket science.

At this point yes: I would rather it not coming out at all. It would have saved us from that charade last year about VS coming back. And UDE not making fun of us.

Moreover... it didn't come back... that's one of the reason I'm salty about this in the first place. They said it would be back, and then it didn't.
Edited by -TK-, Jun 1 2015, 01:59 PM.
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Mordis
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The game absolutely needed changes, but they could have made nearly all, if not all, of these changes without flattening the character power curve. Not that missing a drop isn't a problem, but it seems like that is already minimized by the fact that endurance is gone. If they had given the MC more frequent/smaller "level ups" it would have further minimized the impact of missing a drop. Sure, there would probably have been some additional tweaks required. Also, if you're consistently missing drops, maybe fix your deck.

At least if they had kept the power curve, probably most of the new game would have been fairly backwards compatible. Especially if the MC plot twists are worded in such a way that they would work as Legend Plot Twists.

I'm still getting the new game to give it a fair shake, but I agree that this whole thing felt a bit like a switcheroo con. Oh well.
Edited by Mordis, Jun 1 2015, 02:48 PM.
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BatHulk
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@TK:

Again, I don't think they were trying to "trick" people last year.

I think they really wanted to bring it back but after looking at it from a "living card game" position where you get all the cards in one box, they realized that they had to do more than just re-release it with the old engine.

I'm not sure where wanting to improve (in my opinion) the Vs game experience is a "charade" or a "making fun of you". I think the last thing UDE wants to do is insult its audience.

If this really were some attempt to fool the Vs 1.0 crowd, they could have just released a few more sets last year after GenCon 2014 and then announced this year that they were making these changes. That would have been a kick in the nether regions.
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-TK-
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BatHulk
Jun 1 2015, 03:51 PM
@TK:

Again, I don't think they were trying to "trick" people last year.

I think they really wanted to bring it back but after looking at it from a "living card game" position where you get all the cards in one box, they realized that they had to do more than just re-release it with the old engine.

I'm not sure where wanting to improve (in my opinion) the Vs game experience is a "charade" or a "making fun of you". I think the last thing UDE wants to do is insult its audience.

If this really were some attempt to fool the Vs 1.0 crowd, they could have just released a few more sets last year after GenCon 2014 and then announced this year that they were making these changes. That would have been a kick in the nether regions.
I'm sorry, but we have no indication that they really wanted to give us VS System.

What we know is they the said they would, they got the money from the old community and then they used it for a completely different game.

If they weren't sure about what they wanted to do, all they needed to do was shut up about VS System and present a new game this year. But they didn't. They explicitly told us VS System was coming back and they explicitly said that its return was bound to how well the pack last year was going to sell.

What they did was asking the old vs system community money. The same community that was asking for the return of the real vs system for years. Not for a similar one, and surely not for a completely unrelated one like this.

They knew what we wanted, they knew that we were going to give money to see VS System back and they take advantage of it. There is no point in denying it.

You may want to play this new thing, that's ok. Have fun. Bending reality isn't.
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Dog
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-TK-
May 30 2015, 04:51 AM
Dog
May 30 2015, 01:09 AM
-TK-
May 29 2015, 10:16 PM
Dog
May 29 2015, 09:13 PM
Quote:
 
What they are doing is making fun of vs system players.

1. Make fun of a tiny group of people who already hate your company.
2. ?????
3. Profit

Makes sense.
Lol.

You know what's fun? That they already profit on vs system players when they sold the pack last year.

I'l repeat it: they already made money on the old vs system players.

I know people that tend to answer in this sarcastic way usually have some problem understanding basic concepts, so I'll ask some other users here to help me.

Can someone find a different weay to explain this concept to Dog? Maybe if a lot of people keep telling him this obvious thing he'll understand.

I doubt it, but everything can happen.
How on Earth were selling those boxes making fun of anyone? Did they change the logo to Calvin taking a piss on a Savage Beatdown?

Yes, I do not get that. But don't worry, I'll take my unforgivable and irrevocable ignorance elsewhere and leave you to it. Seems like you need the win.
I don't need anything. You made a joke about UDE making money on old VS System players like that was something that never happened.
Holy shit, I'm glad I did come back, because I'm about to break a personal rule and throw down the "reading comprehension card" for the first time in my life.

Read my (apparently horrific) post again. I made a joke about profiting from making fun of people, not about profiting from former players at all. Unless you have the ultimate persecution complex, there's no way to interpret selling those sets from GenCon as making fun of people.

I'm honestly rubbing my eyes in disbelief that you can't understand this.
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BatHulk
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Can someone tell me how much these Vs sets from last GenCon cost? And how many were there?

Unless those things were $1000 each and there were hundreds sold, I'm not sure how sales of those sets can finance this Vs 2PCG.

Developers cost money, printing cost money, packaging cost money, distribution cost money... is TK telling me that whoever bought those sets last year paid enough to finance this release at GenCon 2015? To pay for the $10k+ of prizes that UDE is going to pay out in August?

I wonder if UDE even broke even on the costs to make those sets last year with what they sold them for.
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-TK-
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Quote:
 
Holy shit, I'm glad I did come back, because I'm about to break a personal rule and throw down the "reading comprehension card" for the first time in my life.

Read my (apparently horrific) post again. I made a joke about profiting from making fun of people, not about profiting from former players at all. Unless you have the ultimate persecution complex, there's no way to interpret selling those sets from GenCon as making fun of people.

I'm honestly rubbing my eyes in disbelief that you can't understand this.


Yea, nice try, but you know that when you answered me you were referring to this answer:

Quote:
 
I'm sorry but there is no arguing about this being anything related to VS.

If anything is wow tgc with a couple of borrowed mechanics.

That position is not defendable. Core mechanics are completely missing. You are free to play soccer with your hands and score in a basket, but that's not soccer. Doesn't matter if you keep saying that, like in soccer, punching your opponent is wrong.

This is not VS.

Play it if you like and, if you like, enjoy the fact that it reminds you vs somehow, but there is no arguing about it being VS in any form.

Moreover, I'm not describing some secret conspirancy: I'm just stating the obvious. I didn't imagine them promising us the return of VS, I didn't imagine them making money on the old VS players (Cause I hope you don't want to sell me that a relevant number of new players bought that pack for 50 bucks. It's simply not true), and I didn't imagine them keeping the name of a dead game instead of coming up with a new one.

Those are facts and no one can honestly say that the more simple interpretation here is that they are trying to lure old VS System players into this game.

And, FYI, I'm not stuck with anything. I still play VS sometime cause it's an excuse to meet old friends, but VS is not more relevant to me that the Super Mario Bros game I used to play when I was 6 years old. I just don't like UDE making fun of old players like they are.


It's pretty clear why I talked about making fun in that answer. I was specifically referring to them getting money from people and not delivering what they promised.
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OMB
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BatHulk
Jun 1 2015, 12:49 PM
As I've monitored this forum activity over the years, is it fair to say that the number of Vs 1.0 stalwarts has dwindled to a number that is probably much less than potential new players and players who are willing to play the new Vs?
There are definitely a lot of people who seem to have drifted away and a lot of the new people who pop in seem to vanish after a bit. Dunno if they lose interest because they can't find enough cards or people to play with or just because the learning curve is so steep they're getting crushed. We've had people come and go after they couldn't handle the amount of losing you have to do before you start winning.

Who knows. New game looks like it has some interesting things happening. I'll take a look at it and hopefully it's fun.
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-TK-
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BatHulk
Jun 1 2015, 08:52 PM
Is TK telling me that whoever bought those sets last year paid enough to finance this release at GenCon 2015? To pay for the $10k+ of prizes that UDE is going to pay out in August?

I wonder if UDE even broke even on the costs to make those sets last year with what they sold them for.
Nope, I'm telling you that they promised VS System and asked money for VS System. Then used it for this totally unrelated game.

This would be wrong even with them making a single dollar out of those boxes.

And honestly, do you want to sell me that they sold those boxes for less then their cost? Cause that makes them look even worse then they already are. Which I really didn't think was possible.
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Cosmic
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I'm astonished by how many dead games I've kept playing are being gutted, necromanced, and shilled by their owners.

Such crushing disappointment. Though it's not surprising this 'new' company is still using bait and switch tactics.

This game and the spirit are not same. From its inception VS was hyper competitive and complex, this incarnation is neither. A real shame since small LCG releases seemed like the perfect platform for a rerelease as it doesn't necessitate casuals like TCGs.

VS has always had freedom and nuance at every facet, it's simply not in this game. Speaking of anti-life equations, I need to finish my villain encounter: Darkseid deck.
Edited by Cosmic, Jun 1 2015, 10:44 PM.
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bigboj55555
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To be honest i do like being able to spend only 50 bucks and getting a playset of every card in the set. I remember how hard it was to find straights,enemy,savages,mobilize(especially if you arrived late to the game). But to say the games mechanics needed to be changed is just wrong. Missing drops was part of the game(any game really). I loved initiative and how you and your opponent were on the same level each turn. I have played mtg and vs system and i like vs way more. the fact that all your cards in your deck are playable is better. Anyone who has played mtg can tell you how frustrating it is to get stuck drawing lands or not having lands. Not to mention you can play characters and as many plot twist you want each turn. Personally i'm just going to add the new cards to what has already been printed an call vs 1.0. Ude just gave me new cards and i have to thank them for that at least. Hopefully we can all come to a consensus on what vs 1.0 is and use the new interest in the game to show that Vs system is still viable.

Also side decking changes the game completely. imagine being able side in flame traps,unmasked,political pressure betrayal, no man. You could cripple a deck and essentially make your opponents cards blank
Edited by bigboj55555, Jun 1 2015, 11:01 PM.
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BatHulk
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-TK-
Jun 1 2015, 09:09 PM
BatHulk
Jun 1 2015, 08:52 PM
Is TK telling me that whoever bought those sets last year paid enough to finance this release at GenCon 2015? To pay for the $10k+ of prizes that UDE is going to pay out in August?

I wonder if UDE even broke even on the costs to make those sets last year with what they sold them for.
Nope, I'm telling you that they promised VS System and asked money for VS System. Then used it for this totally unrelated game.

This would be wrong even with them making a single dollar out of those boxes.

And honestly, do you want to sell me that they sold those boxes for less then their cost? Cause that makes them look even worse then they already are. Which I really didn't think was possible.
I'm not understanding your logic here.

Wasn't the money those people paid (were you one of them?) for that box set, not for any future sets?

Was there some type of promise that if you bought the "living card game" version at last year's GenCon you would get the same exact Vs you wanted in a future release?

I understand that may have been the expectation but I don't think buying last year's box set created some type of contract that UDE had to deliver on.

And yes, they may have lost money on that set. I don't know how many were printed and how many were sold nor do I remember what they sold for. I know the approximate printing/packaging costs for fixed card sets locally (it's way cheaper overseas) but I can't know what their margins are without numbers.

I don't know if that makes them "worse", as it would be difficult to gauge demand for a game that had been discontinued 6 years prior.

Either way, would it make you feel better if you realized that it's not personal... it's business. Take it from me, I ordered so much Marvel Evolution for my store in hopes that there would be another set after that... and we know how that turned out... and I was stuck with boxes of MEV.
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Mordis
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I bought one of the sets at Gen Con last year (and convinced 3 or 4 friends to do the same) and while I don't remember the exact quote the message was clear "if this does well, we'll bring back Vs. System". I spoke to several UDE employees including Brenner, and I specifically remember the phrase "the game we know and love" in response to some of my questions as to how the game's return would work. So essentially it was a Kickstarter with a box of Marvel Origins cards as a "Pledge Bonus" for a $50 pledge.

I doubt they knew then that they would be changing so much. In fact I don't think they knew they were changing this much 6 (more like 4) months ago based on that video floating around of Brenner at some other con. At that point we were still being told that the two games would be compatible for kitchen table play.

I hope the new game is great, but it does feel shitty.
Edited by Mordis, Jun 2 2015, 01:10 AM.
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BatHulk
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@Mordis:

Thanks for the clarification.

I would hope that they could simplify it but keep it compatible with the old cards, which is why one of my projects is to see if I can bridge that gap with some "house rules". Especially for those of us who want to play with DC characters. :)

In that light, I think I can understand TK's position more.

We'll see how that shakes out... but until then I wonder if I can play Vs with these DC Deck Building Cards, they look pretty nice.
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