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| Exiles Poll - What's the REAL Problem?; Exiles Poll | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 11 2009, 04:07 AM (1,925 Views) | |
| lastchance | Feb 11 2009, 09:15 PM Post #16 |
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Senior Member
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From the point of view of someone who had to deal with this issue in a great degree recently... Blink doesn't need to be banned, but she does need to be errated. I don't believe any card needs to be banned in general when a simply change of wording will work fine to fix most problems (why wast the paper that the card was made on in the first place?). I looked over the use of Blink with Shift with filth999 extensively (among other cards in that combo of Exiles) and she seems to be the biggest problem. I think if she was erratedt to say "When you recruit Blink..." then we wouldn't see the loop hole we see by her giving tons and tons of Shift counters to other characters (and herself) which is over kill. |
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| HomerJ | Feb 11 2009, 10:02 PM Post #17 |
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The problem with an errata that requires recruiting her, is that it nullifies what the Exiles are trying to do from the set/affiliation design itself. The Exiles are Shifters. They shift into play. Other than maybe Proteus, the team is designed to come from the RFG zone, not be recruited. The best way to NOT mess with the overall Exiles team, is to quantify "If this is the first time Blink came into play this turn" or "If you have not controlled Blink this turn." By using this type of errata, you allow Exiles to play the same way, but prevent abuse. I also feel strongly that this errata would/should apply to Sage and Mariko as well. Edited by HomerJ, Feb 11 2009, 10:03 PM.
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| I_Avian | Feb 11 2009, 11:01 PM Post #18 |
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Tech is not the answer, IMO. I originally laid out my reasoning here:On Tech and here: Reactivity |
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| conykchameleon | Feb 11 2009, 11:12 PM Post #19 |
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I'm a big fan of KardKrazy's idea. It's our game now. Lets come up with a solution. |
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| Shadowtrooper | Feb 12 2009, 05:58 AM Post #20 |
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I Hate Rebel Scum!
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I agree with HomerJ that "If you have not controlled a character named ________ this turn." is a great solution that still keeps the flavor of Shift in both Blink and Mariko. |
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| Zuranthium | Feb 12 2009, 07:23 AM Post #21 |
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If Blink could only be used once per turn, the card would still be imbalanced. You simply shouldn't be able to generate resource points like that with a 3-cost character. Instead, I think her ability should be to put a Shift counter on ONE shifted card you control. I agree with the once-per-turn limit for Sage and Mariko. |
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| I_Avian | Feb 12 2009, 12:05 PM Post #22 |
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But then she would suck to the degree of totally unplayable. Personally, I think the desired outcome of any errata would be to leave Exiles at Tier 1 but in the realm of beatable. The errata "If you have not controlled a character named [character] this turn" on Blink, Mariko, and Sage would be a good one. I wouldn't put on any more errata than that without playtesting the results. (Anyone with an Exiles deck care to play out a few games with said errata and report back?) |
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| ukyo_rulz | Feb 12 2009, 02:02 PM Post #23 |
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I actually think that the problem lies in Silver Age and Modern Age. I think there are decks that can legitimately beat Exiles while having a good chance against the rest of the field (not a lot, but they're there). The problem is that they are not legal in MA/SA. At a time when VS System is out of print and will not be printed anymore, I am somewhat amazed that the community still follows a format system that is based on the schedule of set releases. |
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| kansashoops | Feb 12 2009, 04:40 PM Post #24 |
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Do you really think many people would play Exiles in a competitive tournament if there were a reusable plot twist like Political Pressure that limited them to recruiting/shifting into play one character per turn? I don't. It would completely nuke the deck. It's fine to have high-powered cards/effects, as long as there are complementary cards/effects that can negate them or hold them in check. It's the absence of answers for Exiles' effects that make them so powerful. |
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| kariggi | Feb 12 2009, 04:45 PM Post #25 |
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Hero For Hire
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K-Hoops has a point, does anyone else remember what Null Time Zone while noticeably absent from the event did to that PC in LA...if you don't, what it did was make Titan's a virtual no show on the weekend, strickly due to the fear of being locked out by the NTZ. Oh and Miguel doesn't help much if you can't drop him before quicksilver kills you which can happen on three and believe it or not some people miss there search cards (even running 8) and don't always hit the mental vs cards they need in the real show. |
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| kansashoops | Feb 12 2009, 06:09 PM Post #26 |
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Look at it this way: suppose there were two 4 cost plot twists, one that said "All opponents lose 50 endurance" and another that said "All opponents lose 15 endurance". Now suppose that there were an ongoing 3 cost plot twist that said "If you would lose 50 endurance, gain 25 instead." Which of the first two plot twists is more powerful, the one that does more damage, or the one that does far less damage but can't be countered? Clearly it's the one that has no good counter. The threat of turning a -50 for your opponent into a +25 is going to make you very leery of playing that card. Even if your opponent doesn't have it in his deck, you have to assume that he does and play accordingly. You don't want to risk turning a sure-fire win into a sure-fire loss. But the lesser-powered card has no counter, so there's no potential downside to playing it. All reward, no risk. So it is with the Exiles. Now, in the current state of things, we don't really have the option of creating tech cards that counter Exiles, so if we want to do something about them, the only option is ban or errata. All I'm saying is that the real mistake I think they made in creating the Exiles cards was in not providing anything to counter them. If they had done that, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. |
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| kariggi | Feb 12 2009, 06:26 PM Post #27 |
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Hero For Hire
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Heck if it wasn't for the FAQ on Keyword payment powers that they decided they needed to make these guys realy bust we might be OK. |
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| I_Avian | Feb 12 2009, 06:30 PM Post #28 |
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The problems with a one card answer are: 1) You've got to draw it. This means Exiles would still be a powerhouse, unless your opponent draws the answer. This reduces the skill factor and introduces an X-Factor. Second, any answer will have a counter answer, so Exiles will play that, further increasing the randomness problem. 2) Metagame cycles mean first people will stop playing Exiles to avoid the tech card, then people will realise that the tech card isn't seeing play, so will bring Exiles and win, then the tech card goes back in, and so on around the merry go round. 3) Any card slot you have to devote to narrow tech is that much less room for actual creative deckbuilding and fun cards which let you play your deck instead of hosing the other. Whereas an errata would bring Exiles into line more simply and elegantly. |
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| kariggi | Feb 12 2009, 06:58 PM Post #29 |
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Hero For Hire
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If they had never printed the FAQ to make Shift/Evasion not susceptable to effects that negate/impact payment powers would we still be having this discussion or would we be afraid to play exiles....Risk vs Reward? |
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| Shadowtrooper | Feb 12 2009, 06:59 PM Post #30 |
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I Hate Rebel Scum!
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The problem with adding a tech card is that you end up with useless cards in your deck for other matches, and personally I hate that. For QuickFate we had Level 12 Intelligence but it wasn't a dead card as we could always use it for extra endurance. Not many decks other than Exiles in Modern bring more than one character to play per turn and the few that do like Multiple Man and perhaps X-Babies variations would be crippled at the site of a card like Political Pressure. Honestly I don't think thats the way to go. A simple errata on Blink will suffice,but if it still a problem no matter what errata we do then it's going to be quite clear for everyone that a ban is in order. BTW I saw a problem with the errata: "If you have not controlled a character named Blink this turn." and thats that it would negate the possibility of taking full advantage of cards like Wolverine Squad, or recruitment of characters with the same name. Like for example controlling 1st a 1 drop Blink to latter recruit/shift a 3 drop that same turn. It should read more along the lines of: "When Blink comes into play if you have not controlled a character with the same printed name and version as her this turn ..." |
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