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Exiles Poll - What's the REAL Problem?; Exiles Poll
Topic Started: Feb 11 2009, 04:07 AM (1,924 Views)
kansashoops
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Shadowtrooper
Feb 12 2009, 06:59 PM
Not many decks other than Exiles in Modern bring more than one character to play per turn and the few that do like Multiple Man and perhaps X-Babies variations would be crippled at the site of a card like Political Pressure. Honestly I don't think thats the way to go.
Sorry, no. A tech card that single-handedly nuked Exiles and Shield Burn would definitely be worth playing and not be a waste of card slots.
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Shadowtrooper
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kansashoops
Feb 12 2009, 07:27 PM
Shadowtrooper
Feb 12 2009, 06:59 PM
Not many decks other than Exiles in Modern bring more than one character to play per turn and the few that do like Multiple Man and perhaps X-Babies variations would be crippled at the site of a card like Political Pressure. Honestly I don't think thats the way to go.
Sorry, no. A tech card that single-handedly nuked Exiles and Shield Burn would definitely be worth playing and not be a waste of card slots.
If you play against them sure, but if you don't? I mean first you have to make Political Pressure legal for Silver and Modern. Then you would have to make an errata for Political Pressure so that it affects not only recruiting but also Shifting into play. That would leave you with abuses from Nick Fury from SHIELD players. People will complaint so now you would also have to make Political Pressure affect all come into play effects as people are tired of a 4th turn activation from Nick to put 2 Agents on the field, bounce Nick back to hand recruit and activate again. Then, now that Political controls all come into play effects that resemble recruitment and shift the decks and combos that rely on Bodyslide and Poison Ivy for example will do squat.

Of course thats just the way I see it, because once you start bringing cards from one format to the other then people are going to want more and more cards to also be allowed to be played in order to tech out or nullify certain decks. You would start a downward spiral that would potentially lead to the "destruction" of the formats.

Doing an errata on Blink is the best way to go and the easiest without damaging all other deck types and without having to bring cards from one format to another.

Also the object is to level out Exiles not to nuke them completely. if Exiles is nuked then people will start to play Quicksilver or Wolverine again. Then what? Every time a good deck that dominates comes along we are going to bring new cards and ban the heck out of the deck?
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Zuranthium
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I_Avian
Feb 12 2009, 12:05 PM
Zuranthium
Feb 12 2009, 07:23 AM
If Blink could only be used once per turn, the card would still be imbalanced. You simply shouldn't be able to generate resource points like that with a 3-cost character. Instead, I think her ability should be to put a Shift counter on ONE shifted card you control.

But then she would suck to the degree of totally unplayable.

A 5/4 3-drop with shift that generates a resource point and lets you play Warp Shards shouldn't be unplayable.

I'd rather see Exiles build towards winning on turn 5 and utilize cards like Rogue. Exiles could still have a consistent and deadly turn 5 if Blink was nerfed like that, right? It seems completely fair since there is no way to really stop the "combo" (and nor should there be). I don't know why Exiles has to be able to win on 4. Such a thing should only happen if a deck gets a God draw and the opponent gets a bad draw, or if the deck is so single minded that it can do absolutely nothing else but rush and therefore leave itself open to several broad counters.

kansashoops
 
Do you really think many people would play Exiles in a competitive tournament if there were a reusable plot twist like Political Pressure that limited them to recruiting/shifting into play one character per turn? I don't. It would completely nuke the deck.

It's fine to have high-powered cards/effects, as long as there are complementary cards/effects that can negate them or hold them in check. It's the absence of answers for Exiles' effects that make them so powerful.
I believe that highly specific anti-"XXX" cards are bad for games. All it does is further push the play into Rock-Paper-Scissors. You want cards that are versatile and gain power depending on how well they are utilized, which caters towards experience and skill.
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kariggi
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Hmmm lets try this again,

What if we simply disregarded the FAQ making Keyword/Payment powers untouchable?
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I_Avian
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kariggi
Feb 12 2009, 08:24 PM
Hmmm lets try this again,

What if we simply disregarded the FAQ making Keyword/Payment powers untouchable?
Hrrm, don't know if this would work, after all most teams don't have access to negation.



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kansashoops
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Feb 12 2009, 08:01 PM
If you play against them sure, but if you don't?
It doesn't matter whether you do or not, as long as there is a chance that you might. I would happily dedicate 4 card slots to a tech card that single-handedly throttled two of the top decks in the format.

And please don't say, "Yeah, but you have to draw it." You don't. The very existence of such a card neuters the deck(s) it counters, and lessens the likelihood that people will even play the deck. Why did Checkmate/Ahmed never make a splash in Golden Age, despite dominating DC Modern and Silver? Reign of Terror.

BTW, I wasn't talking about Political Pressure itself, but rather a hypothetical card LIKE PP that stopped multiple recruits/shifts into play per turn.
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Shadowtrooper
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kansashoops
Feb 12 2009, 09:07 PM
Shadowtrooper
Feb 12 2009, 08:01 PM
If you play against them sure, but if you don't?
It doesn't matter whether you do or not, as long as there is a chance that you might. I would happily dedicate 4 card slots to a tech card that single-handedly throttled two of the top decks in the format.

And please don't say, "Yeah, but you have to draw it." You don't. The very existence of such a card neuters the deck(s) it counters, and lessens the likelihood that people will even play the deck. Why did Checkmate/Ahmed never make a splash in Golden Age, despite dominating DC Modern and Silver? Reign of Terror.

BTW, I wasn't talking about Political Pressure itself, but rather a hypothetical card LIKE PP that stopped multiple recruits/shifts into play per turn.
The things is hoops the intent is not to make the deck unplayable, but bring it down a notch. Destroying the possibility of of playing the deck is just ridiculous, specially when some people have invested so much money to build their decks.

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kariggi
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So trooper would disolving the FAQ make them unplayable, fair, still broken but beatable, still broken but too scary to play for fear of mass negation of spent resource points?
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Shadowtrooper
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kariggi
Feb 12 2009, 10:38 PM
So trooper would disolving the FAQ make them unplayable, fair, still broken but beatable, still broken but too scary to play for fear of mass negation of spent resource points?
Well lets say that shift can be negated as a payment power, what are you going to negate it with in modern? I just did a search on the official card reference document and only a few cards can actually help:

1) Batman, Cape & Cowl
2) Dr. Strange, Protector of the Soul Gem
3) This Bores Me
4) Fatality, Emerald Assassin
5) Utility Belt

I found nothing else to counter or negate payment effects and I went through the list twice. All of them work for Golden, 3 of them work for Silver and two one of them works for Modern. of the two that work for Modern one will never see play against Exiles cause it's a 7 threshold cost Plot Twist and the other (Dr. Strange) will only work once and if you have the initiative on the 4th turn.

I still think an errata is the best way to go.

If the FAQ is dissolved for Albert and Miguel issues then perhaps Exiles will take a hit.
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blues686
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Feb 11 2009, 06:38 PM
two votes that say there isn't a problem, hm? I wonder which one Ralph voted for [butthead]

[I voted against Blink].

I am in agreement with Squire as far as how we should 'fix' blink.
oooo super burn! thats sooooo unfair.. lol

i voted for mariko by the way because i honestly think blink really isnt the issue. all she does is just bring out more guys. we all have seem some form of swarm via free characters. its nothing new. There are ways to deal with it. even if you change her to recruit the exiles deck would be a whole deck of 2 drops instead of 3 drops and mariko/bodyslide madness would continue. you weaken the burn aspect of the deck or take it out entirely then you just have a regular old turn 5 kill aggro deck...(turn 5 is still a little early but is more acceptable by the community

mariko is the real problem
Edited by blues686, Feb 15 2009, 07:44 AM.
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lastchance
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Hey, do you know what will solve this entire fiasco? If a card is made that helps counter Shift in a fan set that can become legal for use in the future! Then we can stop debating this issue so much!!!
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blues686
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lastchance
Feb 15 2009, 08:05 AM
Hey, do you know what will solve this entire fiasco? If a card is made that helps counter Shift in a fan set that can become legal for use in the future! Then we can stop debating this issue so much!!!
yes i agree!! lead on brother! lead on for the fan made movement
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KardKrazy
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blues686
Feb 15 2009, 07:41 AM
I voted for Mariko by the way because i honestly think blink really isnt the issue. all she does is just bring out more guys. we all have seem some form of swarm via free characters. its nothing new. There are ways to deal with it. even if you change her to recruit the exiles deck would be a whole deck of 2 drops instead of 3 drops and mariko/bodyslide madness would continue. you weaken the burn aspect of the deck or take it out entirely then you just have a regular old turn 5 kill aggro deck...(turn 5 is still a little early but is more acceptable by the community

mariko is the real problem
Quoted for the win. While I 100% believe that a character that can generate resource points is fundamentally broken after reading your tournament report it was very obvious what won 100% of your games...Burn. And I want everyone to please pay attention to this carefully to bring it into perspective:

This is a chart that shows just how much Mariko burned each round for Ralph:

Quote:
 
Round 1: 20 Endurance - Turn 4
Round 2: 42 Endurance - Turn 6
Round 3: 56 Endurance - Turn 4
Round 4: 50 Endurance - Turn 5
Ralph quit taking notes at this point but the following are quotes from his recap of each round -
Round 5: "I also drew 2 copies of bodyslide to burn Gram way into the negatives for the win."
Round 6: "I was able to burn Wade for about 48 endurance on turn 4 with two Marikos and two copies of Bodyslide."
Top 8 Round 1: 64 Endurance - Turn 5 (Without Mariko, Ralph lost this round by the way)
Top 8 Round 2: 48 Endurance - Turn 6
Top 8 Round 3: See Round 3's notes up there...Yeah happened all again according to Ralph's notes.


If you think Blink wasn't able to do what she does the burn wouldn't have happened. Not really. Go back and read his report:

Bodyslide and Beak Saves The Day enabled A LOT of the burning. Yes without Blink's ability there are a couple of times where Ralph would not have been able to burn for quite as much but I have to agree 100% with Ralph. You nerf Mariko you will see a Turn 5, sometimes Turn 4 rush deck that will have to win by attacking. Not only that but Exiles will actually be more vulnerable to stall decks since they will have to attack to win.
Just my outlook on the situation,
Kj
Edited by KardKrazy, Feb 15 2009, 12:24 PM.
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Shadowtrooper
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Interesting points of view but ask yourself one question: would of Mariko burned that much without Blink giving the extra resource points for shifting characters into play?

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KardKrazy
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Shadowtrooper
Feb 15 2009, 04:07 PM
Interesting points of view but ask yourself one question: would of Mariko burned that much without Blink giving the extra resource points for shifting characters into play?

Yes she would. Bodyslide and Beak Saves The Day enable more burn than Blink did in his reports. There were numerous games that he played Bodyslide 2-3 times and guess who he played it on...Not Blink, it was played targeting Mariko. Beak Saves The Day was also played some games 2-3 times where he would just pay 2 resource points(normal ones) to bring in Mariko 2-3 times a game.
Nerf Blink and a month from now you will have people complaining that the problem deck out there will be Mariko Shift Burn. I am willing to bet that you can take Blink out of an Exiles deck in Modern and still have a Tier 1 burn deck.
later,
Kj
Edited by KardKrazy, Feb 15 2009, 06:51 PM.
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