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Exiles Poll - What's the REAL Problem?; Exiles Poll
Topic Started: Feb 11 2009, 04:07 AM (1,923 Views)
Savage Tofu
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KardKrazy
Feb 11 2009, 09:00 PM
Here is a thought, and it is just that a thought but let the Vs community have a contest to see who can create the most balanced and believable card that can be used as tech against Shift. It would be fun and when all is said and done the Vs Community will have a tech card against Shift.
Then again you can always just do house rules of banning Blink if your play group felt the need.
Just some thoughts:),
Kj
Maybe we could errata political pressure to include shifted cards.
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Savage Tofu
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Shadowtrooper
Feb 12 2009, 05:58 AM
HomerJ
Feb 11 2009, 10:02 PM
lastchance
Feb 11 2009, 09:15 PM
I think if she was erratedt to say "When you recruit Blink..." then we wouldn't see the loop hole we see by her giving tons and tons of Shift counters to other characters (and herself) which is over kill.
The problem with an errata that requires recruiting her, is that it nullifies what the Exiles are trying to do from the set/affiliation design itself. The Exiles are Shifters. They shift into play. Other than maybe Proteus, the team is designed to come from the RFG zone, not be recruited.

The best way to NOT mess with the overall Exiles team, is to quantify "If this is the first time Blink came into play this turn" or "If you have not controlled Blink this turn."

By using this type of errata, you allow Exiles to play the same way, but prevent abuse. I also feel strongly that this errata would/should apply to Sage and Mariko as well.
I agree with HomerJ that "If you have not controlled a character named ________ this turn." is a great solution that still keeps the flavor of Shift in both Blink and Mariko.
I don't agree with this. "only when recruited is enough" otherwise ban her.

Personally i think they should make a new format:

ALL THINGS SHIFT!

All characters & equipments have shift.

these would be the banned cards for the format

regular ban list
3 drop blink
3 drop shadow cat
2 drop proteus
beak saves the day
any more?

I have always felt that free resources are a no no. People can argue with me about Conjuration & Manhunters not being good but in the end we were all safer without free resources.

Considering something official IMHO something needs to be done about blink. That is all I would do right now. Truthfully though something needs to be done with most of the MEV set. If we errata Exiles to a more manageable level there is going to be other contenders closely waiting in line. X-force & runaways are on my personal radar right now.
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Savage Tofu
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kariggi
Feb 12 2009, 08:24 PM
Hmmm lets try this again,

What if we simply disregarded the FAQ making Keyword/Payment powers untouchable?
That would be bad.

It would be O.K to introduce a format like this but saying things like this scares me.
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Savage Tofu
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KardKrazy
Feb 15 2009, 10:52 AM
blues686
Feb 15 2009, 07:41 AM
I voted for Mariko by the way because i honestly think blink really isnt the issue. all she does is just bring out more guys. we all have seem some form of swarm via free characters. its nothing new. There are ways to deal with it. even if you change her to recruit the exiles deck would be a whole deck of 2 drops instead of 3 drops and mariko/bodyslide madness would continue. you weaken the burn aspect of the deck or take it out entirely then you just have a regular old turn 5 kill aggro deck...(turn 5 is still a little early but is more acceptable by the community

mariko is the real problem
Quoted for the win. While I 100% believe that a character that can generate resource points is fundamentally broken after reading your tournament report it was very obvious what won 100% of your games...Burn. And I want everyone to please pay attention to this carefully to bring it into perspective:

This is a chart that shows just how much Mariko burned each round for Ralph:

Quote:
 
Round 1: 20 Endurance - Turn 4
Round 2: 42 Endurance - Turn 6
Round 3: 56 Endurance - Turn 4
Round 4: 50 Endurance - Turn 5
Ralph quit taking notes at this point but the following are quotes from his recap of each round -
Round 5: "I also drew 2 copies of bodyslide to burn Gram way into the negatives for the win."
Round 6: "I was able to burn Wade for about 48 endurance on turn 4 with two Marikos and two copies of Bodyslide."
Top 8 Round 1: 64 Endurance - Turn 5 (Without Mariko, Ralph lost this round by the way)
Top 8 Round 2: 48 Endurance - Turn 6
Top 8 Round 3: See Round 3's notes up there...Yeah happened all again according to Ralph's notes.


If you think Blink wasn't able to do what she does the burn wouldn't have happened. Not really. Go back and read his report:

Bodyslide and Beak Saves The Day enabled A LOT of the burning. Yes without Blink's ability there are a couple of times where Ralph would not have been able to burn for quite as much but I have to agree 100% with Ralph. You nerf Mariko you will see a Turn 5, sometimes Turn 4 rush deck that will have to win by attacking. Not only that but Exiles will actually be more vulnerable to stall decks since they will have to attack to win.
Just my outlook on the situation,
Kj
Burn has been a problem for a long time. Even since MOR. Burn ruined GA Random punks format. With mind gem, last laugh, morlocks justice & 1 drop evaders you could easily put your opponent down to -50 on turn 4. -50 is generous. Most games I played were around -80.

Mariko's problem is she is 2 endurance for each character rather then 1 like Cable is.

I have no problems with banning Markio & Blink. The deck will still function well with both cards gone. You still have Proteus, Shadowcat & M kran crystal.



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Shadowtrooper
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KardKrazy
Feb 15 2009, 06:50 PM
Shadowtrooper
Feb 15 2009, 04:07 PM
Interesting points of view but ask yourself one question: would of Mariko burned that much without Blink giving the extra resource points for shifting characters into play?

Yes she would. Bodyslide and Beak Saves The Day enable more burn than Blink did in his reports. There were numerous games that he played Bodyslide 2-3 times and guess who he played it on...Not Blink, it was played targeting Mariko. Beak Saves The Day was also played some games 2-3 times where he would just pay 2 resource points(normal ones) to bring in Mariko 2-3 times a game.
Nerf Blink and a month from now you will have people complaining that the problem deck out there will be Mariko Shift Burn. I am willing to bet that you can take Blink out of an Exiles deck in Modern and still have a Tier 1 burn deck.
later,
Kj
Yes Bodyslide and Beak Saves the Day will help with the burn from Mariko but how many characters would he be able to of have recruited without the Blink + Beak Saves the Day combo? 3? 4? That's a maximum of 8 points of burn. lets go to the math tables 8 points of burn by 3 ( Bodyslide = Beak Saves the Day) and thats only 24 points of damage. Yeah it still sucks but not as much as the 42 points of burn he averaged in the first 4 rounds. You have a chance of surviving. I mean lets be honest here, his average was about double what he could be doing without Blink. How can you still think Mariko is the problem?

Lets say that he can put into play 5 characters for 10 points of burn you triple that with a Beak Saves the Day and a Bodyslide and you're still 12 points of burn under the average. Extra resources generated at that amount is simply BROKEN.

BTW I still believe that Beak Saves the Day should be limited to the Combat Phase.
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Shadowtrooper
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Savage Tofu
Feb 15 2009, 07:05 PM
Maybe we could errata political pressure to include shifted cards.
This has already been suggested and it is not a good idea. First of all you would need not only to make an errata on Political Pressure but you would have to make it legal for Modern and Silver. If that isn't enough that would make Exiles still a force to be reckoned with in BYOT. If there is an errata to be made it needs to be done with Blink.
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Savage Tofu
Feb 15 2009, 07:30 PM

Mariko's problem is she is 2 endurance for each character rather then 1 like Cable is.




The difference is not 1 burn Vs 2 burn cause if that was the case then Multiple Man decks would run Mariko instead of Cable. Yes Mariko burns more but she burns for each character that came into play that turn. Cable on the other hand burns for each X-men character that you control. There is a big difference there and the difference is Blink enabling so many resource points.
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KardKrazy
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I just think that Exiles would be fine without Mariko. You see I agree that Blink is fundamentally broken but I think she was built to be broken(as in she works EXACTLY as designed). So does Mariko but if Exiles could not burn I would not have a problem with the deck because they would have to attack and play Plot Twist to win. They would just be a form of swarm. Swarm and rush have been around since the beginning. This was just the last form of it that UDE gave us before cutting Vs lose. So yeah I say get rid of the burn and Exiles move way into the beatable category. The Illuminati or any control stall deck could handle the deck. I mean Ralph would have lost his match with The Illuminati AND the Radioactive Man control deck if it was not for the burn.
Just my outlook on it:),
Kj
Edited by KardKrazy, Feb 15 2009, 08:37 PM.
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Shadowtrooper
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Thats just the thing KK, Exiles would still be able to win even without Mariko. There is where the problems lies. If you read the Tourney Report again and some of the threads in Realms you will see that it blues even admitted that inability to play correctly against the threat of James Barnes is in fact what delayed the game. Every character recruited was in the concealed area so Exiles could of easily rushed a win against this deck.

Why did this happen? Well if you look at blues build and compare it to EvilDaves build you will see that blues relies to much on burn. It is evident just because of the addition of Cable and Bodyslide. IMO thats why both you and him think that Mariko is the problem, when in all honesty it isn't.
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KardKrazy
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Well I guess we just differ on this one:).
By the way if we were going to give an errata to Blink my personal choice would be that she be written as so:

Quote:
 
Shift
When Blink enters play, put a shift counter on a shifted card you own.


I think Blink would be balanced if she could put only one shift counter on a shifted character when she comes into play. Reason being the most counters I can see her generating would be 3 and that would come only when turns like 4 or 5 hit. Dr. Light technically generated 2 and the main reason people had a problem with him was because the card pool he had access to and he was not limited to certain types of characters. Blink has a far less card pool to manipulate and she is limited to one type of character.

Just a thought,
Kj
Edited by KardKrazy, Feb 16 2009, 02:54 AM.
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Shadowtrooper
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I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. [laugh]

About that Errata though that would make her almost unplayable. Proteus is much better than that and can generate much more counters. Right now I am playing the deck in two different versions:

1) One with Polaris instead of Mariko (I intend to try out every 3 drop with shift just to see how dependent on Mariko the deck really is.)

2) Blink putting counters when she comes into play only once per turn.

With Polaris I have managed wins on 4 though they come less often. Without Blink I have to hold for turn 5 FTW by burning with Mariko. Turn 5 is not that good a turn for Exiles as control can be established and a fast deck like TNB can edge out a win on 4 if it draws enough pumps. Hulk can also take it to town.

All in all I am getting mixed results but controlling Blink has been much more productive than controlling Mariko simply because of the swarm of characters that can be avoided. Honestly I fear double Common Bonds more than double Marikos. The only real conclusion that I have gathered is that Beak Saves the Day should be limited to the combat phase. Honestly this is the card that no matter what version of the deck you run enables Blink to put counters like crazy and for Mariko to do double burns.

That is the next version of the deck that I intend to test out with my friends to see if a more balanced deck can be achieved.
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blues686
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Feb 16 2009, 04:52 AM

The only real conclusion that I have gathered is that Beak Saves the Day should be limited to the combat phase. Honestly this is the card that no matter what version of the deck you run enables Blink to put counters like crazy and for Mariko to do double burns.

That is the next version of the deck that I intend to test out with my friends to see if a more balanced deck can be achieved.
yea beaks is really the enabler for the blink combos. i mull for that card every game! i think we should try and leave blink and mariko as is and test the deck with beaks saves the day limited to the combat phase. maybe that will slow the deck down.

i was thinking even if you changed blinks effect to a recruit or once per turn thing. you would see exiles decks run more copies of makran crystals to maximize the counters. im currently brainstorming with the erratta in mind of blink being a recruit. and an exiles deck with mainly shifted 2 drops instead of 3 drops. with the whole cable/bodyslide/mariko thing going on. blink recruit effect and makrann crystal can get the turn 4 kill considering the numbers. im gonna see what i can come up with...

i think the latest you can get turn 5 kill and thats just with burn.

i still say its mariko instead of blink.
Edited by blues686, Feb 16 2009, 09:45 AM.
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blues686
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KardKrazy
Feb 15 2009, 10:52 AM


This is a chart that shows just how much Mariko burned each round for Ralph:

Quote:
 
Round 1: 20 Endurance - Turn 4
Round 2: 42 Endurance - Turn 6
Round 3: 56 Endurance - Turn 4
Round 4: 50 Endurance - Turn 5

Ralph quit taking notes at this point but the following are quotes from his recap of each round -

Round 5: "I also drew 2 copies of bodyslide to burn Gram way into the negatives for the win."
Round 6: "I was able to burn Wade for about 48 endurance on turn 4 with two Marikos and two copies of Bodyslide."
Top 8 Round 1: 64 Endurance - Turn 5 (Without Mariko, Ralph WOULD OF lost this round by the way)
Top 8 Round 2: 48 Endurance - Turn 6
Top 8 Round 3: See Round 3's notes up there...Yeah happened all again according to Ralph's notes.


If you think Blink wasn't able to do what she does the burn wouldn't have happened. Not really. Go back and read his report:

Bodyslide and Beak Saves The Day enabled A LOT of the burning. Yes without Blink's ability there are a couple of times where Ralph would not have been able to burn for quite as much but I have to agree 100% with Ralph. You nerf Mariko you will see a Turn 5, sometimes Turn 4 rush deck that will have to win by attacking. Not only that but Exiles will actually be more vulnerable to stall decks since they will have to attack to win.
Just my outlook on the situation,
Kj
fixed it for ya.. lol :)
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blues686
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KardKrazy
Feb 15 2009, 06:50 PM
Shadowtrooper
Feb 15 2009, 04:07 PM
Interesting points of view but ask yourself one question: would of Mariko burned that much without Blink giving the extra resource points for shifting characters into play?

Yes she would. Bodyslide and Beak Saves The Day enable more burn than Blink did in his reports. There were numerous games that he played Bodyslide 2-3 times and guess who he played it on...Not Blink, it was played targeting Mariko. Beak Saves The Day was also played some games 2-3 times where he would just pay 2 resource points(normal ones) to bring in Mariko 2-3 times a game.
Nerf Blink and a month from now you will have people complaining that the problem deck out there will be Mariko Shift Burn. I am willing to bet that you can take Blink out of an Exiles deck in Modern and still have a Tier 1 burn deck.
later,
Kj
Yes i would agree.. working on the deck now for the upcomming battle in the swamps/meadowlands by captain cuba..
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KardKrazy
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lol...sorry about that Ralph [duh]
later,
Kj
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