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Exiles Poll - What's the REAL Problem?; Exiles Poll
Topic Started: Feb 11 2009, 04:07 AM (1,922 Views)
Shadowtrooper
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blues686
Feb 16 2009, 09:21 AM

yea beaks is really the enabler for the blink combos. i mull for that card every game! i think we should try and leave blink and mariko as is and test the deck with beaks saves the day limited to the combat phase. maybe that will slow the deck down.

i was thinking even if you changed blinks effect to a recruit or once per turn thing. you would see exiles decks run more copies of makran crystals to maximize the counters. im currently brainstorming with the erratta in mind of blink being a recruit. and an exiles deck with mainly shifted 2 drops instead of 3 drops. with the whole cable/bodyslide/mariko thing going on. blink recruit effect and makrann crystal can get the turn 4 kill considering the numbers. im gonna see what i can come up with...

i think the latest you can get turn 5 kill and thats just with burn.

i still say its mariko instead of blink.
The thing with adding M'Kraan Crystal to the equation is that you will lose consistency as you have no way of searching for it in modern without doing harm to the deck card count.

However if you look at what happened in round one you will see that in that scenario thats exactly what the Exiles player will need to do if Blink does receive an errata to once per turn. Lets look at it and keep in mind that Beak Saves the Day was never used on Blink.

blues686 report
 
... shifted blink for 1

I recruited Proteus ... ... activated Proteus to put a shift counter on blink, bringing her to two counters.


I shifted out Albert, Mariko, and Miguel from my hand. I activated Proteus to give Blink her third shift counter. I then shifted Blink into play, allowing her effect to resolve giving my shifted characters +1 shift counters. .... ... I played Warp Shards on Blink to remover her from play.


Not drawing much in characters this turn, I flipped Panoptichron and activated it on Proteus to shift him out of play, giving shift counters to Mariko. I paid 1 resource point to give Proteus a shift counter. I then shifted Blink into play, allowing her effect to resolve and maxing out all my characters with shift counters. I shifted them all in, with mariko being the last character and burning for 10. I then played Beak Saves the Day on mariko to shift her out with 2 shift counters. I paid a resource point to shift her back into play, burning Joe for another 10.


Thats the only way you can really recruit enough characters with an errata on Blink; with a shifted Blink in one, Proteus on the second and a Warp Shards on the 3rd, and still you did only did 20 damage with Mariko. Now if you did limit Beak Saves the Day to the combat Mariko would of have only done 10 damage, yet if you had another copy of Beak Saves the Day she would of have done another 10 damage provided you would of used Proteus' ability for a total of 30.

So you see Mariko is not the problem as Blink was played as best she could of been played with an errata. Now how many games did this scenario happen? Only in one out of nine, I say that diminishes the power of Exiles relatively enough so that other decks do have a chance burn aside.

The way I see it Mariko needs no errata. A simple errata on Blink and limiting Beak Saves the Day to the combat will suffice. Sure you can still do double burns with Mariko if Cable and Bodyslide show up but you would need not just one card to pull that off but two and thats risking having dead cards in hand if Cable doesn't show up.
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Luther Bob
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Wow....I think my head may explode after reading this entire thread. Holy cow.

It is apparent that a tech card alone would not really serve the entire game well. Not to knock those that feel otherwise...but I think the case against it speaks for itself. That's not to say that future fan sets shouldn't have 'shift-hate'...matter of fact my 'Masters of the Universe' set will have such a thing....hehe

But....

Having played Magic for over 5 years...and now VS since it came to be...errata is the way to go. Bans...only in rare....rare cases...errata is the key. The particulars of her errata...I'm torn. I've read very compelling arguments here.

For Blink....I believe the best points lie with:

a) some form of 'once'...in essence limit her to a more Proteus-esque abililty

or

b) only give a counter to ONE character at a time

or

threeve) give her a Rogue-esque power...start of a phase add or something of the like

As for Beak Saves the Day...perhaps limit the phase yes....or require a specific state....non-stunned/ready/stunned...etc

Perhaps start a poll for each card in question....if we are truly a non-dictionary...dictator..........whatever...hehe.....we should vote.

Most importantly....PLAYTEST whatever is up for a vote...give it so many days/weeks to allow ample testing. I think we all agree that MEV was lacking in testing....soooooooooooooooooo...let's test! [pirate]
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blues686
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Luther Bob
Feb 17 2009, 06:18 AM
Wow....I think my head may explode after reading this entire thread. Holy cow.

It is apparent that a tech card alone would not really serve the entire game well. Not to knock those that feel otherwise...but I think the case against it speaks for itself. That's not to say that future fan sets shouldn't have 'shift-hate'...matter of fact my 'Masters of the Universe' set will have such a thing....hehe

But....

Having played Magic for over 5 years...and now VS since it came to be...errata is the way to go. Bans...only in rare....rare cases...errata is the key. The particulars of her errata...I'm torn. I've read very compelling arguments here.

For Blink....I believe the best points lie with:

a) some form of 'once'...in essence limit her to a more Proteus-esque abililty

or

b) only give a counter to ONE character at a time

or

threeve) give her a Rogue-esque power...start of a phase add or something of the like

As for Beak Saves the Day...perhaps limit the phase yes....or require a specific state....non-stunned/ready/stunned...etc

Perhaps start a poll for each card in question....if we are truly a non-dictionary...dictator..........whatever...hehe.....we should vote.

Most importantly....PLAYTEST whatever is up for a vote...give it so many days/weeks to allow ample testing. I think we all agree that MEV was lacking in testing....soooooooooooooooooo...let's test! [pirate]
so after reading the thread and seeing both sides of the arguement do you believe the problem lays with blink or mariko.. and why?
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Zuranthium
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Mariko can't effectively burn until turn 5 if you take away Blink in her current form. Although, I do think Mariko's ability should definitely only work once per turn. Ditto for Sage.

Again, I believe Exiles should be balanced towards winning on turn 5. A build that heavily utilizes big drops like John Proudstar and Rogue should also be just as effective as the version that tries to vomit out 3 drops and use Common Bond. I was thinking more about what would be a fair errata for Blink and this is sounding good to me right now: "When Blink comes into play you may put a shift counter on a shifted card you own. At the beginning of your recruit step, you may put a shifted counter on a shift card you own."

That change would promote Blink actually staying on the board to build up the resource points.
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kariggi
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The problem lies not in our stars, but in ourselves.
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Shadowtrooper
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kariggi
Feb 17 2009, 09:54 PM
The problem lies not in our stars, but in ourselves.
uhhhmm .....
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Orange_Soda_Man
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So, Ralph [blues686] agreed with the following idea on a possible solution to this problem elsewhere:

Give the keyword shift the following extra text as errata: "If you have controlled a character with the same name and versions as this character card this turn then characters with that name and version lose and cannot use their triggered powers this turn."

This tags Blink, Mariko, Sage, Cable, Horsemen, Miguel, everyone. And it's a pretty clean way to go about it rather than giving errata to individual cards.

BTW Ralph, I'll super-burn you any day of the week [whip]
lol just messing with ya =0
Edited by Orange_Soda_Man, Feb 18 2009, 04:38 AM.
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Luther Bob
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Well...I would vote for that errata. Good call IMHO. [pirate]
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Zuranthium
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I wouldn't use exactly that wording; you deserve to get the effect twice if you play two separate copies of the card. Limiting it to once-per-turn for each individual card would be fair, though. Beyond that, I still feel like Blink is simply unbalanced with the current ability. Even if it's only once per turn, the effect is simply too good in decks that want to abuse it.
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HeraldofDoom
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Zuranthium
Feb 18 2009, 07:47 AM
I wouldn't use exactly that wording; you deserve to get the effect twice if you play two separate copies of the card. Limiting it to once-per-turn for each individual card would be fair, though. Beyond that, I still feel like Blink is simply unbalanced with the current ability. Even if it's only once per turn, the effect is simply too good in decks that want to abuse it.
You can't really put a "once per turn" for a card that gets shifted in and out, since it becomes a "different" card every time it leaves play.

I am the other person that voted for no problems, by the way. I think that it can easily be dealt with in the metagame, like TBS said on the Realms awhile back when the Realms community asked for a final ban/errata from him.

There were two Exiles decks in top eight at NY, and I don't think any top 8ed at SoCal, right?

Look at all the other decks that placed above it. It can be beaten.

If anything absolutely had to change, I would say that the only sufficient thing to do would be errata Beak Saves to "Combat Phase only".

My two cents. [cool]
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Shadowtrooper
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Orange_Soda_Man
Feb 18 2009, 04:37 AM
So, Ralph [blues686] agreed with the following idea on a possible solution to this problem elsewhere:

Give the keyword shift the following extra text as errata: "If you have controlled a character with the same name and versions as this character card this turn then characters with that name and version lose and cannot use their triggered powers this turn."

This tags Blink, Mariko, Sage, Cable, Horsemen, Miguel, everyone. And it's a pretty clean way to go about it rather than giving errata to individual cards.

BTW Ralph, I'll super-burn you any day of the week [whip]
lol just messing with ya =0
OMG no this is a terrible idea. That screws up cards that shouldn't even be messed with.

Cable, Dayspring
Cable, Soldier X
Cable, Temporal Traveler
Cable, Mutant Messiah
Cable, Nathan Summers
Mimic, Earth-12
and the list goes on for most characters that do have Shift. By doing this you are also messing with possible Beak Saves the Day + Proteus + Timebroker, or any other similar interactions that are not broken. For example Cable burns are not a problem because they cause very little damage and they do target so they can be negated.

I don't even know how this errata would affect Miguel and Albert since they gain a name. If it did work however why should Albert's trigger effect be denied. Do you mean come into play effects instead of triggered efects?

I do not like this errata one bit. All shifter characters are not a problem so don't try to fix it as a whole. The problem is Blink and perhaps if another way of breaking multiple shifting into play is found Mariko and Sage.
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Orange_Soda_Man
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Shadowtrooper
Feb 18 2009, 04:16 PM
Orange_Soda_Man
Feb 18 2009, 04:37 AM
So, Ralph [blues686] agreed with the following idea on a possible solution to this problem elsewhere:

Give the keyword shift the following extra text as errata: "If you have controlled a character with the same name and versions as this character card this turn then characters with that name and version lose and cannot use their triggered powers this turn."

This tags Blink, Mariko, Sage, Cable, Horsemen, Miguel, everyone. And it's a pretty clean way to go about it rather than giving errata to individual cards.

BTW Ralph, I'll super-burn you any day of the week [whip]
lol just messing with ya =0
OMG no this is a terrible idea. That screws up cards that shouldn't even be messed with.

Cable, Dayspring
Cable, Soldier X
Cable, Temporal Traveler
Cable, Mutant Messiah
Cable, Nathan Summers
Mimic, Earth-12
and the list goes on for most characters that do have Shift. By doing this you are also messing with possible Beak Saves the Day + Proteus + Timebroker, or any other similar interactions that are not broken. For example Cable burns are not a problem because they cause very little damage and they do target so they can be negated.

I don't even know how this errata would affect Miguel and Albert since they gain a name. If it did work however why should Albert's trigger effect be denied. Do you mean come into play effects instead of triggered efects?

I do not like this errata one bit. All shifter characters are not a problem so don't try to fix it as a whole. The problem is Blink and perhaps if another way of breaking multiple shifting into play is found Mariko and Sage.
you know what ... when coming into play effects could work to the same end. Plus it doesn't hurt cable. As for Mimic, does he really need to enter play multiple times a turn? On the Timebroker combo, if it isn't a coming into play effect then it would still work. I see that as being most useful when you would otherwise lose board. As for Miguel/Albert ... it should check printed names/affiliations to include them.

How do you feel about this?
Edited by Orange_Soda_Man, Feb 18 2009, 04:46 PM.
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Shadowtrooper
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Depending on the build it might matter for Mimic or other shifted characters to come into play more than once per turn. For example a Mimic deck that misses it's 3 drop, it plays Origin Story to search for the 4 drop and then re-recruit the 2 drop. With several ways to break uniqueness it would really do more harm than good to do an errata on the Shift keyword. The most problematic cards are obviously: Blink, Sage, and Mariko (and I believe in that same order). I suggest we keep all erratas on them and keep our hands off the keyword.
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bkwrds
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Just because an errata would hurt a card doesn't mean it's unnecessary - changing the rules about a keyword or a type of card is always going to have... innocent bystanders. I was bummed out when my X-men Rush deck couldn't play Black Panther 3 to get a second Blackbird Blue on the board, but the Fate Show deck was f***ing broken. Seriously. We're all better off without broken bad decks.
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Zuranthium
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HeraldofDoom
Feb 18 2009, 12:49 PM
Zuranthium
Feb 18 2009, 07:47 AM
I wouldn't use exactly that wording; you deserve to get the effect twice if you play two separate copies of the card. Limiting it to once-per-turn for each individual card would be fair, though. Beyond that, I still feel like Blink is simply unbalanced with the current ability. Even if it's only once per turn, the effect is simply too good in decks that want to abuse it.
You can't really put a "once per turn" for a card that gets shifted in and out, since it becomes a "different" card every time it leaves play.
You say "that's the rule" and it becomes the rule. Not hard.
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