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Exiles Poll - What's the REAL Problem?; Exiles Poll
Topic Started: Feb 11 2009, 04:07 AM (1,921 Views)
I_Avian
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You don't want to add a whole list of exceptions to the basic rules just for Shift though.

I actually think Shift is an awesome mechanic. "Shift maths" is challenging, which is good. It's just that Blink is a little too awesome, and she specifically needs toning down. Possibly Mariko and Sage too.

Blink's text should read "If you have not controlled a character with the name and version Blink, Earth 295 <> Clarice Ferguson this turn, When Blink enters play, put a shift counter on each shifted card you own."
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Shadowtrooper
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bkwrds
Feb 19 2009, 03:35 AM
Just because an errata would hurt a card doesn't mean it's unnecessary - changing the rules about a keyword or a type of card is always going to have... innocent bystanders. I was bummed out when my X-men Rush deck couldn't play Black Panther 3 to get a second Blackbird Blue on the board, but the Fate Show deck was f***ing broken. Seriously. We're all better off without broken bad decks.
The thing is Shift as is isn't broken and as thus it doesn't need any fixing. Besides the Exiles 4th turn destruction deck, how many other shift decks out there are "unbeatable"? None, and thats just it, only one Shift deck is "unbeatable" and the cause of the problem is not Mimic, Cable, Polaris, Deadpool or any other shift cards you want to ad to the list the core o the problem is Blink and her 2 sidekicks Sage and Mariko. What good will it do to the game if all Shift cards have an errata added to them when possibly only 3 cards are the ones that need to be put into control?

You say we are better of without broken decks and I agree to a degree, but the thing is you don't have to mess the entire mechanic of Shift to fix this deck.

If you have a finger with gangrene are you gonna cut the finger or the whole hand? If the hand can be saved why cut it off?
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Dragon
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Shadowtrooper
Feb 19 2009, 05:21 PM
bkwrds
Feb 19 2009, 03:35 AM
Just because an errata would hurt a card doesn't mean it's unnecessary - changing the rules about a keyword or a type of card is always going to have... innocent bystanders. I was bummed out when my X-men Rush deck couldn't play Black Panther 3 to get a second Blackbird Blue on the board, but the Fate Show deck was f***ing broken. Seriously. We're all better off without broken bad decks.
The thing is Shift as is isn't broken and as thus it doesn't need any fixing. Besides the Exiles 4th turn destruction deck, how many other shift decks out there are "unbeatable"? None, and thats just it, only one Shift deck is "unbeatable" and the cause of the problem is not Mimic, Cable, Polaris, Deadpool or any other shift cards you want to ad to the list the core o the problem is Blink and her 2 sidekicks Sage and Mariko. What good will it do to the game if all Shift cards have an errata added to them when possibly only 3 cards are the ones that need to be put into control?

You say we are better of without broken decks and I agree to a degree, but the thing is you don't have to mess the entire mechanic of Shift to fix this deck.

If you have a finger with gangrene are you gonna cut the finger or the whole hand? If the hand can be saved why cut it off?
[cool]
Shadow I'm sorry but the shift mech is over powered and they have over powered effects. I should not have a deck that makes it impossible for you to draw any cards from turn 4 on yet I do. It consistantly shuts down your entire draw every game. I refuse to put it out due to net decking but I know that it is only a matter of time until someone else creates something similar to it or it and then this whole debate will rise up again. It is not an exiles deck however I do abuse the crap outta Blink and Beak Saves the Day and Panatacrap and if Blink was changed to once per turn it would shut down the entire deck.
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Shadowtrooper
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I have seen such decks, in fact I have one too thanks to our discussion on the Golden discard deck that we were building. Best way to control their hand is to not let them draw. :) Besides without a consistent way to search for Kid Omega who is unaffiliated and the entire engine of such deck, draw would usually be only limited to one less draw from him and 0 extra draw because of Caliban. Would love to discuss about the deck with you and how it preforms against a full Exiles deck so drop me a PM.

In any case Dragon you abuse Blink in order to make the deck work properly. You don't abuse Polaris, you don't abuse Timebroker, or Sabretooth. There are a lot of of characters with Shift but you ended up using Blink and Beak Saves the Day. What a surprise there. I mean your argument is basically strengthening mine.

Without the use of Blink and Beak Saves the Day you would need to spend 10 resource points for both Kid Omegas and another 2 resource points on Caliban. Thats 12 resource points and last time I checked by turn 4 you only get 10 resource points, thus making the deck impossible to lock on turn 4 without Blink. It can be done with Proteus and Panoptichron but then you would be open for a lot of hurt by decks such a EXILES! What possible board presence will you have to defend against rush decks?

I would love to see someone really abuse Shift and some of the cards with the mechanic without the use of Blink. It just does not happen.
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kariggi
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I'd honestly love to see the full legnth and breadth of decks this set can produce, but it seems we're all so hung up on eXiles no one is building like they used to. Could be the fact they stopped production as well, but since we wouldn't have seen another set for months and I'm seeing as many tournaments if not more than before, I'm laying all the evils of the world at their feet.

Bring out your decks' bring out your decks'

"But I'm not deck yet"

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HeraldofDoom
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Once we get some more tourneys out of the way and see how the eXiles really perform in a semi-competitive environment, we should decide then and only then what to do about them.
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Shadowtrooper
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HeraldofDoom
Feb 19 2009, 09:46 PM
Once we get some more tourneys out of the way and see how the eXiles really perform in a semi-competitive environment, we should decide then and only then what to do about them.
Well Blues686 didn't play EvilDave's Build and still managed to win relatively easy. With the cost of cards going down thanks to the game being discontinued it's only a matter of time before the players that are left can build such a deck. $ was an issue before since the cards were so expensive but in a month or two it won't be an issue anymore.

Deck is mega consistent and it has firepower like the US Naval Forces. A relatively new player can win with this deck even if he doesn't play it 100% correctly.

We all know what it can do, we don't need for it to keep winning before we do something about it.
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kariggi
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Nice to say but I'll add again EvilDave's build went 3-3 here in SoCal and it wasn't in the hands of a noob.

Maybe we have too many other players who are also good here, unlike maybe some other places...where a good deck is all you need to win.
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HeraldofDoom
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I dunno, some guys might be bringing it to MW Michigan. We'll see then. I thought about taking my build (which is an alternate build, but just as good as Blues686's Cable/Bodyslide version), but I don't want to make anyone angry or be considered a netdecker, etc.

The deck is definitely not good for the community as a whole, for sure.

Something does need to be done eventually, but like I said, not now or anytime in the next couple months. Once MW Mich, UK Nationals, Battle at the Border: Texas, and other such events are finished, we can research the meta more precisely. Only then can we determine if something should be done about the eXiles heavy hitters.

I will have an extensive tournament report from MW Michigan and lots of pics and video for sure. (Unless my friend Shyo bails on me, then I need to find another way there)
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Zuranthium
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I_Avian
Feb 19 2009, 02:11 PM
You don't want to add a whole list of exceptions to the basic rules just for Shift though.
How is that a "whole list"? If a shift card's come-into-play ability has already been used during the turn, it can not be used again. Plain and simple.
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Shadowtrooper
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kariggi
Feb 19 2009, 10:02 PM
Nice to say but I'll add again EvilDave's build went 3-3 here in SoCal and it wasn't in the hands of a noob.

Maybe we have too many other players who are also good here, unlike maybe some other places...where a good deck is all you need to win.
What did it lose to?
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m4g0
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Shadowtrooper
Feb 20 2009, 03:21 AM
kariggi
Feb 19 2009, 10:02 PM
Nice to say but I'll add again EvilDave's build went 3-3 here in SoCal and it wasn't in the hands of a noob.

Maybe we have too many other players who are also good here, unlike maybe some other places...where a good deck is all you need to win.
What did it lose to?
MkO
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Shadowtrooper
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m4g0
Feb 20 2009, 03:24 AM
Shadowtrooper
Feb 20 2009, 03:21 AM
kariggi
Feb 19 2009, 10:02 PM
Nice to say but I'll add again EvilDave's build went 3-3 here in SoCal and it wasn't in the hands of a noob.

Maybe we have too many other players who are also good here, unlike maybe some other places...where a good deck is all you need to win.
What did it lose to?
MkO
Trinity Money.dec
Society Complex
Anything special in those decks that made the match swing on their favor that any of you know off?
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Dragon
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Feb 19 2009, 09:09 PM
I have seen such decks, in fact I have one too thanks to our discussion on the Golden discard deck that we were building. Best way to control their hand is to not let them draw. :) Besides without a consistent way to search for Kid Omega who is unaffiliated and the entire engine of such deck, draw would usually be only limited to one less draw from him and 0 extra draw because of Caliban. Would love to discuss about the deck with you and how it preforms against a full Exiles deck so drop me a PM.

In any case Dragon you abuse Blink in order to make the deck work properly. You don't abuse Polaris, you don't abuse Timebroker, or Sabretooth. There are a lot of of characters with Shift but you ended up using Blink and Beak Saves the Day. What a surprise there. I mean your argument is basically strengthening mine.

Without the use of Blink and Beak Saves the Day you would need to spend 10 resource points for both Kid Omegas and another 2 resource points on Caliban. Thats 12 resource points and last time I checked by turn 4 you only get 10 resource points, thus making the deck impossible to lock on turn 4 without Blink. It can be done with Proteus and Panoptichron but then you would be open for a lot of hurt by decks such a EXILES! What possible board presence will you have to defend against rush decks?

I would love to see someone really abuse Shift and some of the cards with the mechanic without the use of Blink. It just does not happen.
[cool]
Shadow I easily search out both Kid Omega and Caliban for the deck. Mobilize works wonders on digging him out of the deck thanks to Underground Resitance/SHRA.

As for how it does against rush well Caliban beats rush decks. Rush decks need card draw or they run out of gas. Caliban laughs at card draw. Now Blink's ability is very very nice, but the big problem I have with Shift is the characters who have abilities while shifted out. There is nothing you can do about those abilities accept sit there and take it. That is what I hate about shift. Some of these effects really haven't been looked into that much. Cards with insaine abilities:
Kid Omega, Caliban, Apoc, Sunfire, Archangel, Vision, Sabertooth, etc. . . People really haven't sat down to look into these cards yet and notice that they are dominating. I'm sorry but Apoc vs Swarm Exiles is not good for exiles as he can stun their entire board with ease. Factor in a few tech cards to keep your butt alive and you've just won.

As for needing Blink and Beak Saves the day. I could use other cards to uber out my Counters. I could abuse Promethius and Shadow Cat. I could also abuse M'Kron Crystal. I don't (not yet at least) b/c Shadow Cat is a rare I don't own and I don't proxy.

I know what your saying but I also must say that the enitre Shift mech needs to be looked at not just a few parts of it.
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Shadowtrooper
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Dragon
 
As for how it does against rush well Caliban beats rush decks. Rush decks need card draw or they run out of gas. Caliban laughs at card draw.


Not really. Rally is the new draw and thanks to Longshot SHIELD Burn, and almost every other army deck/burn type just got a big help. ARR can also do without the extra draw that Caliban negates because they just rally like crazy and can beat you in 4. Rush decks now days know that there is a Caliban out thee and they are preparing for him, heck even non-rush decks are doing it. At least in my corner of the world they are.

Dragon
 
I'm sorry but Apoc vs Swarm Exiles is not good for exiles as he can stun their entire board with ease. Factor in a few tech cards to keep your butt alive and you've just won.


Not going to happen. Apocalypse only works at the start of your attack step, by then Exiles would of have taken you out. Honestly all they have to do is see a shifted Apocalypse and they would just hold on until they have the initiative,thats what I do and what any smart Exile player does. It has been tried and it does not work. If this is a straight Horseman build it's even worse. Apocalypse needs at least 4 counters, that makes your board presence almost insignificant, when to 7 characters bashing you straight to the face.

As for other Shifted characters: Sunfire can only exhaust a 4 drop at the max, Archangel targets which means it can be negated with any recovery effect or PA he also needs 5 counters in any build that doesn't create counters he isn't that good, Sabretooth has the same problems Archangel has, Kid Omega and Caliban are troublesome I will grant you that but right now if you can't beat Exiles it's not worth playing. At least not anywhere that Exiles are going to be played.


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