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Exiles Poll - What's the REAL Problem?; Exiles Poll
Topic Started: Feb 11 2009, 04:07 AM (1,919 Views)
Manchine
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Dragon
Feb 19 2009, 08:22 PM
Shadowtrooper
Feb 19 2009, 05:21 PM
bkwrds
Feb 19 2009, 03:35 AM
Just because an errata would hurt a card doesn't mean it's unnecessary - changing the rules about a keyword or a type of card is always going to have... innocent bystanders. I was bummed out when my X-men Rush deck couldn't play Black Panther 3 to get a second Blackbird Blue on the board, but the Fate Show deck was f***ing broken. Seriously. We're all better off without broken bad decks.
The thing is Shift as is isn't broken and as thus it doesn't need any fixing. Besides the Exiles 4th turn destruction deck, how many other shift decks out there are "unbeatable"? None, and thats just it, only one Shift deck is "unbeatable" and the cause of the problem is not Mimic, Cable, Polaris, Deadpool or any other shift cards you want to ad to the list the core o the problem is Blink and her 2 sidekicks Sage and Mariko. What good will it do to the game if all Shift cards have an errata added to them when possibly only 3 cards are the ones that need to be put into control?

You say we are better of without broken decks and I agree to a degree, but the thing is you don't have to mess the entire mechanic of Shift to fix this deck.

If you have a finger with gangrene are you gonna cut the finger or the whole hand? If the hand can be saved why cut it off?
[cool]
Shadow I'm sorry but the shift mech is over powered and they have over powered effects. I should not have a deck that makes it impossible for you to draw any cards from turn 4 on yet I do. It consistantly shuts down your entire draw every game. I refuse to put it out due to net decking but I know that it is only a matter of time until someone else creates something similar to it or it and then this whole debate will rise up again. It is not an exiles deck however I do abuse the crap outta Blink and Beak Saves the Day and Panatacrap and if Blink was changed to once per turn it would shut down the entire deck.
Gotta agree the Shift mechanic is overpowered. Thats just the way I see it. =)
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Orange_Soda_Man
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Yolo Boros
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^^^^^^^

wait. So the idea to weaken the keyword shift from entering play effects to 'once per turn' isn't enough now?

How do you guys feel about, should Kid Omega ever become a problem, that his issue should be resorted with individually rather than bunching him in with the rest of the shift posse?
Edited by Orange_Soda_Man, Feb 21 2009, 06:02 PM.
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Dragon
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[cool]
No, I'm not saying Kid Omega needs to be delt with. What I'm saying is that I personally do not like the abilities that happen while a character is shifted out of play. They just rub me the wrong way. I personally believe that the characters with come into play abilites need the added text of "If you have not controled a character with the name..." then their ability can trigger.
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Orange_Soda_Man
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Dragon
Feb 21 2009, 06:53 PM
[cool]
No, I'm not saying Kid Omega needs to be delt with. What I'm saying is that I personally do not like the abilities that happen while a character is shifted out of play. They just rub me the wrong way. I personally believe that the characters with come into play abilites need the added text of "If you have not controled a character with the name..." then their ability can trigger.
Exactly! I think that shift errata is the best way to deal with the issue.
Maybe we can get a poll where we ask if members agree/disagree with that errata.
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Orcrist
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I see Exiles broken too, and it need some errata in my opinion. But I think that "if a character with the same name and version has not come into play this turn under your control" is a better solution than "If you have not controled a character with the name XXX". In this way, shift decks that dont abuse Blink-Mariko-Sage combo still can work.

And I agree with Orange_Soda_Man: a poll where ask if agree / disagree with each errata is a good idea =)

-= Orcrist =-
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kariggi
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Shadowtrooper
Feb 20 2009, 03:40 AM
m4g0
Feb 20 2009, 03:24 AM
Shadowtrooper
Feb 20 2009, 03:21 AM
kariggi
Feb 19 2009, 10:02 PM
Nice to say but I'll add again EvilDave's build went 3-3 here in SoCal and it wasn't in the hands of a noob.

Maybe we have too many other players who are also good here, unlike maybe some other places...where a good deck is all you need to win.
What did it lose to?
MkO
Trinity Money.dec
Society Complex
Anything special in those decks that made the match swing on their favor that any of you know off?
MKO, had the right draw her's wasn't perfect he beat her dead with lots and lots of pumps quick.

Trinity I think I talked about aleady, hit right, had even init, dropped WW, flustered her play.

Society hit riddlers and stripped her of her ability to use pts.
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Shadowtrooper
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I do agree that it sucks that Shifted characters with abilities can't be dealt with, but I think that is best deal in another thread. After all none of them are Exiles (except Timebroker) and once Blink has been fixed getting counters on them will be more difficult and cause problems with board presence. I guess what I am saying is that we can cross that bridge when we get there.

Now on to the come into play Exiles problems. Not all characters with come into play abilities should be limited to the suggested errata of "if a character with the same name and version has come into play this turn under your control." Again I remind you of Mimic 2 drop. Mimic hasn't been a problem so far and using cards like Clash of Worlds which would really make the card good would be all for nothing.

Another character is Nocturne. Her ability only works when recruited, but because she has Shift that errata on Shifted character would make her useless if I recruit two of them. The card hardly sees play, and I guess will never see play if the Errata is done like that.

Other cards that could be affected are: Longshot, Magnus, and 6 drop Mimic. I find it very unpleasant that if a player managed to develpo a strategy with any of these cards he would be denied of the opportunity to pull it off. I don't think anyone here should have a problem with turn 6 characters combos. Longshot can be debatable but he was made for such a purpose, his one cost should be proof enough of that.

Top problems are Blink, Sage and Mariko. Lets make adjustments on then before messing all possible effects and interactions of other cards. We want to drop Exiles power level, not make them completely unplayable. If after the "fixes" on these 3 ladies brings forth new problems with other exiles shenanigans then we will deal with them as well.
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Zuranthium
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kariggi
Feb 22 2009, 06:14 PM
Shadowtrooper
Feb 20 2009, 03:40 AM
Anything special in those decks that made the match swing on their favor that any of you know off?
MKO, had the right draw her's wasn't perfect he beat her dead with lots and lots of pumps quick.
Actually, that match was misplayed. Just about the only way MKO can beat Exiles (outside of an amazing draw vs. an absolutely horrible draw) is if the Exiles player brings Blink out on 3 on lets it get KOed, which is what I'm told happened. That MKO deck lost to one of the lesser Exiles builds during the tournament.
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Orange_Soda_Man
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Shadowtrooper
Feb 22 2009, 06:45 PM
Now on to the come into play Exiles problems. Not all characters with come into play abilities should be limited to the suggested errata of "if a character with the same name and version has come into play this turn under your control." Again I remind you of Mimic 2 drop. Mimic hasn't been a problem so far and using cards like Clash of Worlds which would really make the card good would be all for nothing.
For the record, that interaction would still work as long as you only shift in one mimic. If you recruit the others, that'd be fine. They'd all get their powers. Sounds to me like you have a cool deck that this errata would unintentionally hurt. PM?
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Shadowtrooper
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Orange_Soda_Man
Feb 22 2009, 10:30 PM
Shadowtrooper
Feb 22 2009, 06:45 PM
Now on to the come into play Exiles problems. Not all characters with come into play abilities should be limited to the suggested errata of "if a character with the same name and version has come into play this turn under your control." Again I remind you of Mimic 2 drop. Mimic hasn't been a problem so far and using cards like Clash of Worlds which would really make the card good would be all for nothing.
For the record, that interaction would still work as long as you only shift in one mimic. If you recruit the others, that'd be fine. They'd all get their powers. Sounds to me like you have a cool deck that this errata would unintentionally hurt. PM?
Well the thing is the effects will trigger as they come into play. With the errata it isn't specified if it is Shifted into play or recruited and it shouldn't matter, cause I could shift in a Blink and then recruit one still getting massive shift counters flowing around.

Here is Mimic's text just in case:

When Mimic enters play, he gains target character's payment powers this turn.

So you see we are on the right track with a comes into play in general, but we are losing sight trying to fix something that isn't broken with other characters. I honestly feel like we should go one step at a time, first test with Blink which many people have done including myself and have found to put a great deal of hurt on Exiles just not enough, then on Sage and last on Mariko if it should come to that.

Best control I have found with Exiles without losing playability and flavor of the team is doing the errata on Blink and then Limiting Beak Saves the Day to the combat phase.

With that done Sage and Mariko really lose their UMPH power, yet the deck can still win with a few adjustments like: Rogue and Timebroker.

As for the deck that I am trying to finish out, I'll PM you the details in a few.
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I_Avian
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Feb 22 2009, 06:45 PM

Top problems are Blink, Sage and Mariko. Lets make adjustments on then before messing all possible effects and interactions of other cards. We want to drop Exiles power level, not make them completely unplayable. If after the "fixes" on these 3 ladies brings forth new problems with other exiles shenanigans then we will deal with them as well.
Complete Agreement here.

Errata and bans should be approached with baby steps and much testing.



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OnyxWeapon
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Exiles are really a juggernaut in Modern.

however i believe the true root of the problem to be that concept in and of itself. With no further set releases, the concept of moder/silver/golden ages is completely moot. However we've tested out a Bring your own Modern format to a resounding success. There are much bigger fish in the water than exiles... why is everyone still focusing on this?

In my talks with TBS on similar topics, he always leaned towards the simplest changes. Adding a word here, or a clarification there. if a SIMPLE change could not be catered to repair the intended use of the card, it was simply banned.

This is also why i feel that while not adhering to the teams obvious theme, a simple change to a recruit limitation on blink and mariko, will still allow a remarkable use of shift effects, Don't forget that this is exactly what R&D did for a fix on Nocturne. Sure she could have had a "once per turn limitation, but again, simple fixes are always the best.

This simple change essentially remove the turn 4 burnout/swarm. In fact, in the weeks i've been testing precisely how this affects exiles, i've found that they can STILL overcome this to a remarkable turn 5 win.

And you know what? I can live with that. And curve Exiles is a pretty devastating build regardless.

Going back to my original statement however, evildaves turn 4 exiles fail to succeed against most swarm options from a "Bring your own Modern" event... but no-one is shouting for quicksilver bans anymore... Nor do i see threads on the debilitating venom burn, syn rush, moloids... or the like.

To those of you tired of losing to Exiles, my simplest advice is:

Stop playing Modern age.

There are no fixes coming. no new sets. Modern age will always be the new card templates with exiles as king of the hill. The simplest fix would be to keep the formats changing regularly. And from personal experience, "bring your own modern", "BYOT", and a healthy dose of "Random Punks" and the like, will do just that.

I'm NOT force-feeding you guys. Simply sharing what has worked with our playgroup over the last 2 months. And has worked, i might add, with a resounding success.

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