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The Players Council: A proposal.; please read and comment
Topic Started: Feb 16 2009, 03:12 PM (3,387 Views)
BatHulk
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BTW... on DC Alter Ego cards, herocomplex posted this on VSRealms:

Quote:
 
Oh, and since DC alter egos were never released, I hope folks enjoy seeing these unofficial versions:

Superman, 75 Endurance
Characters you control can't cause breakthrough while attacking characters.

Batman, 55 Endurance
While you control a hidden character, your opponents can't play more than one plot twist per attack.

The Joker, 40 Endurance
Each player can't play a card he's already played this game.

Lex Luthor, 55 Endurance
At the start of the game, choose two different affiliations. Crossover those affiliations.

Two-Face, 60 Endurance
At the start of each turn, flip a coin. The winner of the flip gains the initiative.

Bizarro, 50 Endurance
Switch the ATK and DEF of all characters.

Roy Harper, 40 Endurance
Characters you control get +2 ATK while in combat with a character with greater cost and have range.

Oracle, 50 Endurance
At the start of the recovery phase, each player replaces a resource he controls.


I suggest using art from current DC VS sets if possible.
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vashstampede99
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I think this could be a good idea, I will be glad to help out in any way possilbe with my talents in Multi Media(CS2 and CS3) I will be glad to do that or anything to help.

But the main problem I see happening is well I mean its kind of corny but as Uncle Ben said is "With great power comes great responsiblity," and as Captain America said, "Power corrupts, and absolute power absolutely corrupts."
I would be worried though that someone would want to abuse their power, I mean yes another member could keep them in line but what prevents a Virus from spreading? I mean I do not know this is just my worry and my concern is that something would happen.

The other thing is like here in South Texas none of the guys want fantasy sets they think its stupid and not a great idea at all. Thats also in part they want a card that reads I win no questions asked kind of thing.

My other concern and this is the part I am worried about stepping on feet so if you are easily offended please stop reading now:
But to me if you jump at the idea to do this like to be part of the council is that good or bad? I mean are you in it to help the game or in it for just wanting I guess best way to say it is power? I hope you get what I mean, if this goes threw who chooses the council? What gives them the right? I mean there is a judge here and I am to but I am a lower level judge and will admit that, and he is a high level judge and all, but knows very little on the game. So some times a title does not always work, I mean I ask a lot to learn more which is why I am a lower level but still....This is just a rant with a question and again sorry if anyone was upset with anything. I just want this game to live and not die, and I want it to be able to grow still with all of us. I dont want a council that may kill it. Again love the idea think its great just read above thats all

Vash The Stampede
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I_Avian
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bathulk
Feb 16 2009, 06:43 PM
These are suggestions only:

1. DSM-2 cards should retain the original name and version, just the text and/or characteristics are modified.

2. Events where DSM-2 is legal, the original DSM is not. It either replaces it (for a Golden Age-type event) or is in a format where DSM is not legal (ie Modern).

3. Not all cards in DSM-2 need to be changed from DSM... this probably can go unsaid but people might be thinking that they are going to have 165 new cards.

4. Try to keep the borkiness based on rarity levels. Don't make Play Time - Exhaust all characters your opponent controls, and then do nothing to Superman-8.

5. Make a list of DSM cards that suck and start there.

I really like this idea over brand new fantasy cards. Revising crappier older sets is a simpler path and has less copyright/legal issues.
I second these suggestions.
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Hank McCoy
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HomerJ
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I thought about these ideas some more and have some additional input:

1) If we stick to pre-printed sets and have to stay aligned to any of the already existing values (ATK/DEF, Cost, Name, Version, etc) we would be button-holing ourselves to simply 'fixing' old cards text boxes with nothing else to show. My thought is that recreating the card, but reusing the art is maybe the better option? Especially since a set with SEVEN Supermen in an already powerful legend-based format seems a problem

2) Re-writing an existing set to fix it, works great for DSM and probably for MSM (especially if we were to put more affiliations into it) but what happens when we run out of 'bad' sets? Now are we fixing sets that aren't broken?

3) Regardless of my previous two comments, if we were to re-invent DSM using the existing Names/Versions, I'd say we would either errata the entire set, or set the standard ruling that every card in a re-released set, also includes the set-name in it's version. For example: Superman, Clark Kent/DSM2

Overall, here would be my suggestion, if I were to make all the decisions without everyone's input. I would re-release the DSM set as DSM2. I would re-print a small number of the cards that are already playable as is (keeping name and version as is). Then I would completely re-design the remaining cards, reusing only the art. (Possibly using a mirror image of the existing art to differentiate).

For example:
I would keep Play Time as is.

I would make Super Strength read "Target attacker you control gets +2 ATK this attack. You may remove a cosmic counter from that attacker. If you do, it gets +2 DEF this attack. If the target is named Superman, he gets an additional +1/+1."

I would make Superman, Red, into:

Superman, Red/DSM2
Cost 1
Flight/Range 3/2
Superman may not be recruited.
During your recruit step, if you control Superman, Blue/DSM2, you may put Superman, Red/DSM2 into play from your hand.

And I would make Linda Danvers <> Supergirl, Matrix into an entirely different card altogether. Something like:

Linda Danvers <> Matrix, Fallen Angel
Cost 4
Flight/Range 7/6
While in play, Linda Danvers has the name and identity Supergirl.
Characters with the name or version of Supergirl or Power Girl you control gain +1/+1.


Just some examples of where I'm coming from.
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stubarnes
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vashstampede99
Feb 16 2009, 07:26 PM
I would be worried though that someone would want to abuse their power.

I hope you get what I mean, if this goes threw who chooses the council? What gives them the right?
There are only a select few people left who have the dedication and skills to do this, and only a select few people left who will be affected by the Player's Council decisions.

I think we should just go ahead with it, using polls here on this site to allow the community to decide who and what direction we want to go.

I think we should not worry about all the petty concerns about power and popularity.

I think the select few people left will grow into a healthy community under the leadership of the Player's Council, no matter who or what we do in the beginning.

I think the community is mature enough to work together instead of squabbling about the details.

Let's just do it.

[tophat] [tophat] [tophat]
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HomerJ
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bathulk
Feb 16 2009, 06:43 PM
These are suggestions only:

1. DSM-2 cards should retain the original name and version, just the text and/or characteristics are modified.

2. Events where DSM-2 is legal, the original DSM is not. It either replaces it (for a Golden Age-type event) or is in a format where DSM is not legal (ie Modern).

3. Not all cards in DSM-2 need to be changed from DSM... this probably can go unsaid but people might be thinking that they are going to have 165 new cards.

4. Try to keep the borkiness based on rarity levels. Don't make Play Time - Exhaust all characters your opponent controls, and then do nothing to Superman-8.

5. Make a list of DSM cards that suck and start there.

I really like this idea over brand new fantasy cards. Revising crappier older sets is a simpler path and has less copyright/legal issues.
Real quick, more of my thoughts:

1) I don't want to nullify existing cards for any reason. DSM2 cards should have the added DSM2 version added to them if they're characters and have the same name/version. (Plots, Locations, and Equipment obviously don't apply)

2) Again, I'm against deleting an existing set. I'd rather put the onus on the Design Team to make sure new cards don't affect the original set.

3) I agree. There are lots of existing cards that are just fine. Similarly, there NEEDS to be 'bad' cards and 'good' cards to promote deck building. So it's just as likely that a bad card could, and SHOULD be reprinted, if there's nothing wrong with it other than being extremely narrow.

4) This is entirely within the requirements and responsibilities of the design team, and I agree whole heartedly.

5) "Suck" is a relative term. I'm more apt to say that the Design Team should review the set, determine the failings as a whole, and attack each team accordingly. For example, New Gods did not make good use of the Cosmic mechanic, and now with Super-Town available, their core mechanics should be reevaluated. Superman in DSM was obviously very focused on Protection and Clones. My thought would be to remove the Clones aspect and re-evaluate the rest. Darkseid is pretty good already, and so possibly would have few changes. And so forth . . .
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carlosthedwarf
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vashstampede99
Feb 16 2009, 07:26 PM

I would be worried though that someone would want to abuse their power, I mean yes another member could keep them in line but what prevents a Virus from spreading? I mean I do not know this is just my worry and my concern is that something would happen.

My other concern and this is the part I am worried about stepping on feet so if you are easily offended please stop reading now:
But to me if you jump at the idea to do this like to be part of the council is that good or bad? I mean are you in it to help the game or in it for just wanting I guess best way to say it is power? I hope you get what I mean, if this goes threw who chooses the council? What gives them the right? I mean there is a judge here and I am to but I am a lower level judge and will admit that, and he is a high level judge and all, but knows very little on the game. So some times a title does not always work, I mean I ask a lot to learn more which is why I am a lower level but still....This is just a rant with a question and again sorry if anyone was upset with anything. I just want this game to live and not die, and I want it to be able to grow still with all of us. I dont want a council that may kill it.
Vash - you aren't the only one with those fears, believe me. But let me lay this on ya':

Steve and I have TOTAL CONTROL over this site. We can erase posts we don't agree with. We can change what you write. We can delete members we don't like.

But we don't.

People can sit around and worry about someone taking control and abusing power. But until I see it actually happen here - I'm not going to let it slow me down.

What will kill this game's rebirth faster than anything is "inaction".

Yes - abuse COULD happen. That's why we build in some checks and balances. But at some point, if we want this game to succeed, we'll need to start trusting each other.

Not every step we take as a group is going to be perfect. We ARE going to make mistakes. As long as we learn from them and move forward, we'll be OK.
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tchalla
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The biggest problem with a project like this is the resistance from people that are scared of somebody abusing power.

People, no one is going to force you to play anything. If you don't like it, don't play! What is so hard to get across with that idea? Did you play even though you disliked something UDE did? Then sit back, enjoy the game and stop standing in the way or progress. If you aren't willing to stand up and put forth efforts to make this thing the raging success it CAN be, then back off and stop with the "what if somebody makes changes I don't want to play with" type stuff. If you don't like it, don't get involved.

As for the virtual cards, it is not legal to print out new art nor to encourage other people to print out new art for cards, as it is the right of the intellectual property's owner to be able to SELL those rights and taking actions to use that art work without permission CAN lead to a cease and desist order. However, using existing artwork and issuing functional "erratum" to a card is NOT illegal, as clarifying the way a card works shouldn't cause any violation of legality, as far as I'm to understand it.

The beauty of Virtual Cards for VS is that we have a dozen different fields we can issue changes to a card to constantly keep a card's "value" high, due to Virtualizing the card, if you will.

As for altering the version and allowing 8 cards named Spider Senses, that is not the best way to utilize this method. I don't think you want a player to be able to Rally for any card name and pick something they can run 8 of in a way that wasn't intended. But, maybe others will disagree and nobody will see it as a bad thing and instead it will be exactly how it is implemented.

The single most important thing is NOT to allow Virtual cards to be SO powerful that the older, original cards are so under powered that they have little use in a game. Star Wars is fighting with this right now, and for every player they boast of returning to the game another one leaves the game because the game just isn't what they thought it was any longer.

The first candidates for Virtualizing really should be cards already on the banned list, as restoring the full card pool is most beneficial to new players or even existing players since the card pool has now become finite. Increasing the number of cards accessible for play is one of the most important things to do. People can now get VS cards for EXTREMELY low prices, and getting a bunch of cards that you can't play with because they are banned would really turn a new player off to the game. It has happened before...

I think a player's committee is a good idea. I've always thought it was a good idea. I don't want to be a part of this one, though, and hope it succeeds and becomes something truly great. Good luck to all involved and may the VS gods smile on your efforts!
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stubarnes
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carlosthedwarf
Feb 16 2009, 08:01 PM
People can sit around and worry about someone taking control and abusing power. But until I see it actually happen here - I'm not going to let it slow me down.

What will kill this game's rebirth faster than anything is "inaction".

Yes - abuse COULD happen. That's why we build in some checks and balances. But at some point, if we want this game to succeed, we'll need to start trusting each other.

Not every step we take as a group is going to be perfect. We ARE going to make mistakes. As long as we learn from them and move forward, we'll be OK.
That time is now.

Don't slow down for anyone. Just get started and get it done.
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blues686
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hmmm the idea seem doable and i'll follow it to the fullest if it gets passed. I know that my group of buddies arent going to like this idea of reusing old cards with new text slips. even though it has that some what new feeling you still have that oh " ive been there done that" feeling.

i was really hoping that this game would continue with completely new cards like what was done with dc universe fan set. my group as of now has added the dcu set in the current modern age and rotated out marvel legends. The majority like the idea of new sets not the uses of old sets all over again.

i dont know if others feel this way. even with the copyright issues at hand it is still possible to do new sets using dc/marvel characters without either company getting involved. There is no money being made.

This reminds me of a fantasy fighting game for the pc call MUGEN where players use/ create characters from exisiting fighting games or other licenses and the companies of theses license dont come after these people. and this game is well exposed to the computer gamers out there. Theres dc characters, marvel characters, movie characters, anime characters, cartoon characters, all the fighing game properties out there, you name it its in mugen. no one has gotten sued. no one is making money. These are copyrighted characters that are being used by fans with out any profit.

The same thing can be done with vs system with new sets like dcu instead of going the star wars tcg route.
Edited by blues686, Feb 16 2009, 08:21 PM.
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tchalla
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Marvel and DC might let it slide.

They might not.

If they sell the rights to another company to make a game, the cease and desist will come along shutting down access to new characters and fan stuff, almost guaranteed.

Custom action figures go under the radar most of the time, since it isn't worth the efforts to chase them down. However, if you aren't careful about what you are selling customs of, Hasbro can and has in the past, come after people for using characters that Hasbro has the rights to. So be wary on that front.

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blues686
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tchalla
Feb 16 2009, 08:24 PM
Marvel and DC might let it slide.

They might not.

If they sell the rights to another company to make a game, the cease and desist will come along shutting down access to new characters and fan stuff, almost guaranteed.
well i'll bring up the Mugen game again.

The game is still updated with characters from many fighting game properties such as street fighter, mortal kombat, fatal fury ect. its also updated constantly with new dc/marvel characters. This is has been going on for yeeeeears!

now during those years many games using those copyrighted characters have been released and were successful. Til this day no c&d has ever been issued to anyone. If this can happen without any interference by the companies of the licensed characters since the release of mugen then it can be done with vs with no problem. especially since mugen is more widely known by people then vs system is
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stubarnes
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tchalla
Feb 16 2009, 08:24 PM
Marvel and DC might let it slide.

They might not.

If they sell the rights to another company to make a game, the cease and desist will come along shutting down access to new characters and fan stuff, almost guaranteed.


Again, I say we should go ahead with it and not let fear dictate.

Onward!

[bounce] [bounce] [bounce]
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DarkSolrac
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i think the Alter Ego suggestions kick ass, and am i to understand this correctly as its been repeated several times (just not sure if i get it yet) only card text is changed? are att/deff effected? what about the layout of the card is it still the old school layout? when adding this set would it make the cards modern/silver age legal? either way i think its a fun idea at the very least its something to do instead of sittin on our thumbs so i am for it and would like to help in what ever way you guys would need
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