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Copyright Law/Fair Use Law/Fan Based Card Sets
Topic Started: Feb 17 2009, 05:20 AM (1,192 Views)
CaptainIreland
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I can't find the link that I had posted on VSrealms about this before, but I'll explain what it was about, at least.

There's a webcomic called Order of the Stick. It is available for free online at giantitp.com. The author has sent at least a dozen cease and desist letters to people who repost a page of the comic with the text translated into another language, even if they post it online for free and completely crediting the author.

Free comic pages, properly cited, only the text translated, and he has a group of lawyers whose only job is to send cease and desist letters to people who do this, and their internet service providers.

And this is just one sick guy writing a free comic book. How much worse could a corporation be?
Edited by CaptainIreland, Feb 17 2009, 04:46 PM.
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Calvin Government
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HeroComplex and Captain Ireland, from what I understand, have it in one. It depends entirely on how touchy Marvel and DC are about this.

They could be absolutely not care. That is one possibility. I won't go so far as to say that it is the most likely possibility, but I don't think they would care. Too much.

Or, they could care quite a lot. Given that there's no money involved and neither of them have a card game they're actively marketing right now, this MIGHT be possible.

But, when it comes right down to it, American copyright law is complex enough that even most copyright lawyers don't quite understand it, and this has been causing problems in America for a number of years. It is a tremendously complex area of law, and one that simple matters of 'legal' and 'illegal' don't really immediately apply.

Regardless of the legality or the morality, we COULD get slammed. For virtual cards, sure, but especially for fan cards, which uses new art and, sometimes, new characters.

To be entirely frank, I don't see us growing big enough to manage to catch the attention of them, and I'm pretty fine with that. If we start holding national tournaments or taking fansets to GenCon, I'd imagine there will be trouble abrewin'... but I don't imagine that Marvel or DC has people trolling the web for illicit VS cards.

To be safe? We should probably make it difficult to find such things through the standard channels - make it hard to find through Google and that sort of thing - and don't take fan sets to big venues, and we probably won't see the hammer come down anytime soon.

The most important thing is, of course, to note that if we do get a cease and desist, that we stop right away. Marvel and DC have gotten quite practiced at copyright lawsuits, and it would be foolish to fight them on something like this.
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BatHulk
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I've said this on Realms and I'll say it again here:

The standpoint from UDE (and I've spoken them specifically about this) is that they don't mind fans making cards as long as there is no money being made either directly or indirectly (such as receive a DCU set when you pay to enter a tournament or buy a box of MEV and get 10 DSM-2 cards). As long as there is no monetary aspect... making cards to play online or at home or at a tournament is fine.

They don't, however, control the what Marvel/DC may do concerning the use of their images (or any other licensor for that matter). While the chances of any company going after anyone for copyright infringement is probably zero, it does not mean it is legal to do so (which is what CI and HC are saying).

So basically it's proceed at your own risk. Will anyone go after you? Probably not. Is it illegal? Without written consent from UDE or any of the property owners... most likely.
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Shadowtrooper
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One question I have. If UDE, Marvel and DC didn't care about fan made sets while the game was being produce why would they care now?
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Calvin Government
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We know that UDE didn't care.

We have no idea what Marvel or DC thought - DC especially, since I believe the artists still retain at least some of the rights to the images used, or at least reproductions of said images. We just know that Marvel and DC never spoke up about it... which, as has been said in the thread before, just means that it isn't terribly likely they'll start now.

All we've been saying is that they CAN, at any moment, come down on us... and it doesn't matter if we're doing virtual cards or complete fan sets, the law will be on their side, in all likelihood. All that's being said is IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT WE AREN'T MAKING MONEY OFF OF IT, to dispell that popular myth.
Edited by Calvin Government, Feb 17 2009, 07:11 PM.
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stubarnes
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Calvin Government
Feb 17 2009, 07:10 PM
All we've been saying is that they CAN, at any moment, come down on us...
We understand that. And no matter how many more times someone says it, we will still understand it.

Thanks to everyone who helped us clear that up, now let's move on.

[bang] [bang] [bang]
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carlosthedwarf
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This topic sounds like something The Council should take the lead on...
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CaptainIreland
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Shadowtrooper
Feb 17 2009, 06:46 PM
One question I have. If UDE, Marvel and DC didn't care about fan made sets while the game was being produce why would they care now?
A few reasons:

First, the agreement with UDE. I do not doubt that UDE was the only company allowed to make a trading card game with Marvel and DC characters while that license lasted. (Does anyone know of another card game released during UDE's contract?) That would be standard practice. So fan cards created while the game existed were no threat to another game Marvel tried to make.

If Wizards of the Coast approaches Marvel and has a card game and an agreement is reached to create that card game, Marvel will have a vested interest in making sure that VS cards are not still being made to compete with that new game.

Second, UDE would not want to come down on fan cards because of backlash against the VS System. Since the cards were selling, they did not mind people adding to the game in that way. Now, however, they may want to protect the IP, the engine the game uses, because they want to retain the rights to that engine. Every time they released a new set, that solidified their ownership of the game. Without sets, they must find another way to maintain their claim to the engine. The best way to do that is to shut down competitors with cease-and-desist letters.
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CaptainIreland
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carlosthedwarf
Feb 17 2009, 08:11 PM
This topic sounds like something The Council should take the lead on...
Does anyone on this currently non-existent Council have ANY experience with copyright law?

There's nothing to "take the lead on." Whether or not anyone makes fantasy cards is not the issue as lastchance posted it. Those of us who do have some kind of experience with this are just explaining it to people who don't.
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bkwrds
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Is there a risk involved? If we get a C&D and are able to follow that command, will there be legal recourse? I tend to agree with the sentiment that "we should be OK" but is there a possible consequence of creating a card set, being given a C&D for a specific action, and then following their request? I'm asking because I don't know.
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tchalla
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One of the reasons why it is worth knowing that the BIG TWO can shut it down at any time is because that is a lot of time and effort and work to put in to fan cards only to have it snatched away and undone, especially when virtual cards carry little or no legal violations.

I've mentioned it in the other thread, but will put it here, too for those that are citing other instances of a company turning a blind eye to their IP being "borrowed".

On eBay, dozens of action figure customizers disassemble and reassemble and repaint action figures to make one of a kind original works of art featuring characters they in no way shape or form own any of the rights to.

Every couple of months, somebody is picked as the lucky recipient of a DC issued Cease and Desist and has their auction shut down by threat of legal action against eBay for allowing the violation to occur on their website. eBay goes ahead and shuts down the auction, of course. Sure, they still allow the custom figures to be posted, and it doesn't seem to follow any particular reason why certain auctions get the flag raised against them, but that's just what happens.

Instead of engaging in illegal activity, why not apply that energy towards developing virtual cards?
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lastchance
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Man.... I just spent another 2 hours searching for any info I could find on the net when it comes to the usage of characters by fans and I really couldn't find anything. I've taken it upon myself though to contact Marvel's copyright and infringement department asking for any info they could supply and if they knew if it was alright to make our own fan based cards and giving them a little background about our situation. I should hear back from them within the next two days.

I know people say that it doesn't matter if your making money off of something or not, but I do think that the making and selling of home made figures does hurt DC because the person selling it is making money off of it and it would be competing with something DC sells since they produce their own figures.

Spending hours on the internet trying to come to some kind of conclusion and info on this subject I realized something else.... there are tons and tons of websites that use comic images for public use for no money and they haven't been shut down. Again, this is just something else I've noticed to support my beliefs.

I will send an email to DC comics tonight to see what they have to say about our situation. I have a feeling Marvel will be cool and DC won't, but who knows?
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CaptainIreland
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bkwrds
Feb 18 2009, 12:36 AM
Is there a risk involved? If we get a C&D and are able to follow that command, will there be legal recourse? I tend to agree with the sentiment that "we should be OK" but is there a possible consequence of creating a card set, being given a C&D for a specific action, and then following their request? I'm asking because I don't know.
ASSUMING they take the standard approach and start with a cease and desist order, then immediate compliance with that order should result in no further legal action.

The only downside there would be the potential investment of time and money into something that could be shut down before it happens.
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tchalla
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One of the things you are missing, lastchance, is that by giving people a way to NOT have to PAY for the cards you are taking money away from the IP's owner, which is as bad to them as if you were stealing their sales and pocketing the money. At least in many cases.

That is why we that are warning of the legality are warning of it. We are already in dangerous territory with the game. Making a risky move to satisfy a few that honestly would have played regardless of the risky move isn't planning for tomorrow very well. We already see what happens when you don't plan far enough in advance. You lose your game is what happens.

Put that energy in to virtual text instead of stealing art work and you will have new content and a legal way to do it. Heck, you'll have that and you'll have the ability to share it with other players unlike what will happen when Time Warner decides that the use of their licensed property without their permission is worth the time to have this web site threatened with legal action.

Nobody here has the ability to fight off Time Warner's legal team. If you DID have that kind of cash, wouldn't you just buy the damn game and do things legally in the first place? :)
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tchalla
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stubarnes
Feb 17 2009, 07:38 PM
Calvin Government
Feb 17 2009, 07:10 PM
All we've been saying is that they CAN, at any moment, come down on us...
We understand that. And no matter how many more times someone says it, we will still understand it.

Thanks to everyone who helped us clear that up, now let's move on.

[bang] [bang] [bang]
No matter how many times you say that "we understand that" as long as somebody is posting saying that they disagree, then clearly there is somebody that DOESN'T understand that.

And if that person is not understanding that the action they are suggesting is illegal, then it is the moral obligation of the site owner's as well as the other members of this site to help prevent something so tragic and easily avoided from happening.

So if you could help by putting that effort towards helping those that don't understand how bad things are from a legal stand point instead of saying to stop saying things, then maybe the urge to say it would abate.

Everybody here loves Vs, stu. Some are loving it in that dangerous stalker kind of way, where their actions aren't really all that legal while others are saying that there's nothing wrong with taking a little time to court her the right way.

Help stop the stalkers and help show them that there is a legal way to pursue that sweet, sweet loving that everybody is scared of losing out on!
Edited by tchalla, Feb 18 2009, 05:38 AM.
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