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Copyright Law/Fair Use Law/Fan Based Card Sets
Topic Started: Feb 17 2009, 05:20 AM (1,190 Views)
KardKrazy
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Lastchance, I'm sorry that you feel like I'm trying to rain on your parade. It sucks to me that some of you are so focused on wanting to have fun that you are willing to ignore the selfishness of not caring about the legal risks that you expose Steve and Miguel to by refusing to adhere to the law itself. I'm not presenting you with my opinion about the law. Just the law.

I'll just say that I am pretty sure Steve and Miguel are not to concerned about this matter. That is all. Wait till next week and you will see why.
later,
Kj
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lastchance
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I think my point of this thread was to prove though that if we make some fan based cards to play with we do have some rights. Add to the fact many other reasons I've stated in the past I don't think we'll have a problem, but like I said some players here won't really be happy until we get confirmation from the companies themselves.

T'challa: Don't worry about it man. I felt like you were attacking me, I'm sure you felt I was attacking you... it's all good man. We're all just looking out for the best interests of the game!

When it comes to the DCU & DCF sets I believe they (DC) are going to want to see the actual product. Due to this I believe it's in our best interests that the cards look as good as possible (very little to no mistakes). At the bottom of the cards there should be something written stating the ownership, copyrights, and trademarks DC owns on the words, pictures, and characters involved. All artist's of the artwork used should be given credit on the cards also. Basically the cards need to have all the normal referential credit and ownership that they did when they were still being produced by UDE. In fact UDE should also be credited for owning the Vs System, too. I'm saying this because from what I remember the last time I saw the cards as they currently are they did not have any of this info listed. Whenever I make fan cards I always take the time to give credit where credit is due for legal and moral reasons.

If we really want to see this happen and people really want to have the blessing of the companies then the cards need to look as professional as possible for them to take us serious and not worry about someone "devaluing" their material.
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Orange_Soda_Man
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Something I learned from youtube today:

Giving credit where credit is due doesn't excuse the usage of copyrighted material. http://www.youtube.com/t/howto_copyright

As to how it affects us, well ... The fair use thing seems to be the only loophole we got. If we distribute anything, it's much easier for ude/dc/marvel to fight us.
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stubarnes
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lastchance
Feb 19 2009, 01:41 AM
I believe they (DC) are going to want to see the actual product.
Chance, with all due respect, I think you are getting really carried away.

These big companies will not care about the details. Either they will ignore us or they will try to shut us down.

I really think you should relax and enjoy the creation of the sets, rather than continuing your crusade.

We can have fun with it, and just see if they come after us. I seriously doubt that they will "approve" our stuff, even if it looks perfect.

[bang] [bang] [bang]
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lastchance
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Stu: I'm 100% with you on this subject, but whenever I bring it up I get roasted! I think that a lot of people want these future sets, but in the back of their minds they are worried if not a lot then at least a little. That is why I posted that if they were so worried then why didn't they contact these companies themselves? I'm just trying to make as much of the community happy as possible. I know I can't make everyone happy, but I am interested in doing things right for the benefit of the community.
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stubarnes
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lastchance
Feb 19 2009, 02:38 AM
I'm just trying to make as much of the community happy as possible. I know I can't make everyone happy, but I am interested in doing things right for the benefit of the community.
My friend, I have tried that for five years. It is a losing proposition.

Stop worrying about pleasing the community. Stop listening to the naysayers.

Please yourself. You are the only person that you will ever have the ability to reach.

If you focus on anyone else, you will just be chasing your tail.

[zen] [zen] [zen]
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lastchance
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What's very interesting about this issue is that it didn't become a full blown issue until players worried that companies would come down on anyone who involved themselves with these "fan made cards" (decided to be considered in some kind of unified legality for a certain amount of cards for future play). When people were just making and posting fan made cards for people to use on the net... it was fine. I just don't see the difference. So basically if I and my friends make a set, post it (or not) on the net, and consider it legal to play with other cards that we have (if they be UDE made or fan made) then the companies are going to come down on us? If it's an issue of the amount of players involved then who gets to say what the cut off amount is? If this is the case then why haven't they done so already because I'm SURE there are players who have done this already in the past. These are just some of the reasons why I justify my beliefs.

I'm trying though to show that I'm interested in respecting what everyone believes in. Some of us would like to just go ahead and make the cards and some would like to get permission to do so. Honestly, both groups have every right to what they want...
Edited by lastchance, Feb 19 2009, 02:51 AM.
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stubarnes
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lastchance
Feb 19 2009, 02:49 AM
What's very interesting about this issue is that it didn't become a full blown issue until players worried that companies would come down on anyone who involved themselves with these "fan made cards".
No, it became a full blown issue when you overreacted to their concerns.

You need to let them voice their opinions and then ignore them. Stop letting their worries control you. Stop trying to "solve" this, it will never be solved.

Let it go, and get back to enjoying the creation of the new sets. Do it now.

Stop talking about this issue and start creating new cards again. Get back to enjoying yourself.

Please?

[crazy] [crazy] [crazy]

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HeroComplex
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Chance---from my perspective, there are actually a few reasons the copyright issue is popping up now, whereas it hadn't very much before.

One reason is that, with UDE no longer producing Vs., it is possible for another company to be given the license for a card game. Fan-created cards a year ago were in some ways a form of promotion for the game; anything that kept people interested in the game could be seen as beneficial to both UDE and the comic companies. (From a legal perspective, btw, if a particular example of infringement can be shown to help the market for the work rather than hurt it, that's a factor which points to fair use.) If Marvel is considering licensing another company, they and their new licensees might see it as in their interest to impede fan-run Vs.---no reason to split gamers between two options.

A second is that organized creation and distribution may be more visible than individual creation, and so more likely to get attention from the companies. A group of Vs. players who create sets together, and maybe even try to organize events at conventions, are just more likely to catch a company's attention than individual efforts.

Third is that the legality has become more salient with no new official cards coming. A C&D letter at this point wouldn't just stop 1 person from making fan cards for themselves---it'd affect a large part of the community. And instead of stopping idle creation, it'd stop efforts important to the game, so that it would have more impact post-UDE.

Btw, I share CaptainIreland's sentiment about claiming ulterior motives. Not sure where it came from, and not crazy about being labeled as duplicitous just because I offered information.

As for contacting the companies, I think it's commendable that you took the initiative and reached out to them. I hope you'll keep us all filled in on how it goes, and best of luck with 'em.


Btw, belated answer to shadowtrooper's question---C&D letters seem to be a common first step, given how cheap they are compared to actual legal proceedings. I doubt the letter is a required first step, because otherwise a copyright holder wouldn't be able to recoup losses from before the letter was sent. But I don't know any statistics about the actions owners take, and I haven't learned about remedy provisions, so I have no actual data for you.


Stu, to answer your post from this morning---I believe my friend was proud of what he'd done, but I also know he was upset that his big update couldn't be published, and that he had to take down the game. For a few reasons, I believe the experience also soured him to Marvel, so he wasn't around the forum much afterwards. It was a balance, which I guess is to be expected.

But putting aside my anecdote for a moment, keep in mind that people discussing the law haven't been trying to forbid fan creation; I'm not sure they've even been discouraging it, for that matter. So I'm not sure where you're coming from in some of your posts. In the post to me this morning, for instance, I feel like you're trying to convince me that people should go forward with fan sets. Except that my (and others') posts haven't been telling anyone what to do, they're just about providing information. Not restricting choice, but informing choice.

When a doctor tells his patient the risks of surgery and the possible side effects of medication, he isn't doing it to discourage them. He's doing it because society feels it's important for patients to be informed before they make decisions. The information might cause some people to think twice, while it won't faze others---if that's how they balance the risks and rewards, then so be it. From your post I think you'll agree that everyone should be able to judge for themselves whether the risks and rewards are worth it.
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stubarnes
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HeroComplex
Feb 19 2009, 04:05 AM
So I'm not sure where you're coming from in some of your posts. In the post to me this morning, for instance, I feel like you're trying to convince me that people should go forward with fan sets. Except that my (and others') posts haven't been telling anyone what to do, they're just about providing information. Not restricting choice, but informing choice.

From your post I think you'll agree that everyone should be able to judge for themselves whether the risks and rewards are worth it.
I understand that, and it is indeed an honorable thing to inform people of the risks.

I don't know for sure if I was trying to "convince", but I do think it is important to also leave alive the possibility that the risks will not materialize.

I get the feeling that this discussion is leading people to decide that it is too dangerous to go forward with anything, and a fear-based attitude like that would surely kill the community completely.

If that's the way it goes, so be it.

As for me, I am a rebel. I am ready to take the plunge, even after all the information about the dangers. I hope there are enough of us who are willing to continue, even if we might get burned.

[pirate] [pirate] [pirate]



Edited by stubarnes, Feb 19 2009, 04:41 AM.
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carlosthedwarf
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stubarnes
Feb 19 2009, 04:38 AM
As for me, I am a rebel. I am ready to take the plunge, even after all the information about the dangers. I hope there are enough of us who are willing to continue, even if we might get burned.

[pirate] [pirate] [pirate]



I think I'm with Stu here.

To keep this game alive, we'll need new "product" at some point. Maybe not now, but eventually.

We can ask permission, which forces Marvel/DC to pay attention to us and give the answer that best covers their butts. Probably not the answer we'll want to hear.

Or we can give them the opportunity to turn a blind eye.

And if we get the cease and desist, so be it.

And sure, the penalty could be even worse. But let me ask you this - ever download an MP3 illegally? Even knowing how severe the penalty could be? Ever make a mix "tape", knowing you're giving away someone else's copyrighted material? Or - even worse - copy a CD for someone?

Yeah - I know this is different (and more visible). But the risks are there in each scenario.

Is keeping the game going worth the risk?

I think it is.

(P.S. I'm glad that 'complex pointed out that "informing" doesn't necessarily mean "arguing against". I started to lose sight of that too as I was reading all these posts.)
Edited by carlosthedwarf, Feb 19 2009, 07:04 AM.
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tchalla
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carlosthedwarf
Feb 19 2009, 05:34 AM
stubarnes
Feb 19 2009, 04:38 AM
As for me, I am a rebel. I am ready to take the plunge, even after all the information about the dangers. I hope there are enough of us who are willing to continue, even if we might get burned.

[pirate] [pirate] [pirate]



I think I'm with Stu here.

To keep this game alive, we'll need new "product" at some point. Maybe not now, but eventually.

We can ask permission, which forces Marvel/DC to pay attention to us and give the answer that best covers their butts. Probably not the answer we'll want to hear.

Or we can give them the opportunity to turn a blind eye.

And if we get the cease and desist, so be it.

And sure, the penalty could be even worse. But let me ask you this - ever download an MP3 illegally? Even knowing how severe the penalty could be? Ever make a mix "tape", knowing you're giving away someone else's copyrighted material? Or - even worse - copy a CD for someone?

Yeah - I know this is different (and more visible). But the risks are there in each scenario.

Is keeping the game going worth the risk?

I think it is.

(P.S. I'm glad that 'complex pointed out that "informing" doesn't necessarily mean "arguing against". I started to lose sight of that too as I was reading all these posts.)
I'm not against fan made sets.

I'm against bringing the wrath of the BIG 2 upon us for no reason if we have other options to explore.

Lucasfilms was VERY reasonable in working with the SWCCGPC. MArvel and DC may, too be so reasonable and would surely respect the efforts taken to ask for permission rather than forgiveness.

I know an artist or two [cyclon] that work for Marvel and DC and they don't approve of their work being pirated. There, it's out and on the table. Maybe their artwork won't get pirated. Maybe some artists could care less. But in today's economy, these guys need their kickbacks more than they care about a bunch of fans wanting to play a game for as cheap as they can. Just to be blunt about one aspect of things.

To answer Miguel, I don't smoke, drink, make illegal CDs, don't mod my X-box or Wii, don't buy pirated DVDs, or any of those things. That's a personal decision in many ways, but there's also the ramifications and their impacts on those around me. A mandatory 2 years in prison for copyright infringement piracy in some places. 2 years! That's a lot of time for something that didn't have to be done, especially when it could have been avoided by way of following the process.

UDE didn't shut the fan stuff down before because it wasn't in their way and it would have hurt them more to hunt people down back then than it would have benefitted them to do so. VS has been circling the drain for a long while, regardless of what the shiny happy people want to think. We know now for a fact that was the truth.

I hope that those willing to continue will do so with the best interests of everyone in mind and not make decisions based on selfishness and shortsightedness. Make the fan sets. GO FOR IT if you want to. But follow the laws while you do it. There are a bunch of companies involved in a law suit series over seas right now, focused on lost revenues as a result of piracy. The defendant(s)? Folks that run a website that make it easier on people to commit piracy. 2 years prison time for each one of them as well as a few MILLION dollars in money they are being sued for. And they will lose, because they knowingly make it easy for people to commit piracy. Stating that they are only making it easier to find what is already out there is a VERY poor defense and once that happens, it will be much easier to go after people for piracy.

I seriously think following the procedures would be far more beneficial than hoping to fly under the radar on this one.

Proudly calling oneself a rebel while encouraging them to break the law is bad form I think. Why do you have to be a rebel to enjoy the game? Can't you enjoy the game without encouraging somebody else to break the law? Not go against a few opinions, but to actively and willfully disregard the law. Man, how can so many people not see how bad that is? Do you want to play the game that bad that you are feeling it would be better to risk losing your freedom and your homes and putting your families in jeopardy over your gaming actions than it would to do it the right way and start at the top and talk to the companies FIRST?
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stubarnes
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tchalla
Feb 19 2009, 08:23 AM
Do you want to play the game that bad that you are feeling it would be better to risk losing your freedom and your homes and putting your families in jeopardy over your gaming actions than it would to do it the right way and start at the top and talk to the companies FIRST?
That is not accurate or realistic. We would not be risking our freedom and our homes and putting our families in jeopardy.

Seriously, that is way over the top. I understand your morals, and I would hope you could understand mine when I choose to make fantasy cards with other people's art even when it is technically illegal, but you are drastically exaggerating with those three scenarios.

In my humble opinion.

[yikes] [yikes] [yikes]
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KardKrazy
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stubarnes
Feb 19 2009, 12:21 PM
tchalla
Feb 19 2009, 08:23 AM
Do you want to play the game that bad that you are feeling it would be better to risk losing your freedom and your homes and putting your families in jeopardy over your gaming actions than it would to do it the right way and start at the top and talk to the companies FIRST?
That is not accurate or realistic. We would not be risking our freedom and our homes and putting our families in jeopardy.

Seriously, that is way over the top. I understand your morals, and I would hope you could understand mine when I choose to make fantasy cards with other people's art even when it is technically illegal, but you are drastically exaggerating with those three scenarios.

In my humble opinion.

[yikes] [yikes] [yikes]
Agreed.
later,
Kj
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owenstar
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My website received a C&D order once...not related to VS....

In my humble opinion, its better to do it and see what happens....like most have said the C&D order is usually the first order of business....so you make a few sets and have them ready...

Printing them and selling them is where the trouble will come from....distributing them as art, probably has less legal ramifications..

Flying under the radar is the way to go in my opinion...
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