Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Once you've registered and completed email validation, you'll need to reply to the thread in The Welcome mat before you gain full access to the site.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Question on MXM
Topic Started: Mar 5 2009, 09:51 PM (341 Views)
Banner75
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  * ]
Hey guys, I just got a box of MXM and remembered a rule that always confused the hell out of me. It seems there were some characters (Hellfire Club, I think) that you could KO them for two different effects. Anyone remember? If so could you explain it to me like I'm a five year old?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Banner75
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  * ]
I remember Herocomplex answered this question for me last year but it must not have sunk in. It was the Hellions and some of their power that have me so messed up.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bkwrds
Member Avatar
is a Gypsy Doom
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Empath, Hellion:

Whenever Empath becomes stunned, you may KO him and turn a face-up resource you control face down.

I remember he was involved but I can't even remember what the payoff was, how he managed to not be KOd. His text has a somewhat unique wording -- "you may KO him" with no "if you do" meaning you don't need to successfully KO him to use his effect, just "try".. you know what I mean? I do not remember where the loop came in.

Hopefully that helps someone else explain this because I obviously don't remember all the details.
Edited by bkwrds, Mar 6 2009, 05:39 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Philosopher
No Avatar
Regular
[ *  *  * ]
I never actually used this trick but I can remember how it worked. You could (for example) get Empath stunned, and then you would put his triggered effect on the chain (when emapth becomes stunned you may ko him and turn a resource you control face down). If you had Modred the Mystic in play (Stunned characters you control cannot be KOd), you would get to turn a plot twist face down but Empath would hang around. The trick (as mentioned above), is that Empath or any of the Hellions include the term 'if you do'.

For an example of KOing a character twice as was initially mentioned:

Empath gets a mutual stun on an attack.
Empath's effect goes on the chain
You play Raising Hell (KO a character to KO a stunned character with 4 cost or less), KOing Empath for the cost.

The chain then resolves
Raising Hell resolves.
Empaths effect is still on the chain and resolves as much as it can. There is no Empath to KO, but you could turn Raising Hell face-down for example.

I hope that is clear enough:

Basically all the Hellions create an effect that will KO them, but the other parts of the effect are independent of that so it doesn't matter if you KO them beforehand for something else - you will get both.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HeroComplex
No Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
The previous posts have largely gotten at the issue. For a slightly more precise explanation, here's a quote from the CRD:
Quote:
 
511.6Some modifiers say a player “may do <action>.” That player is instructed to make a choice whether or not to do <action>. That player may choose to do <action> even if he or she is not able to perform the action at all or is able to perform it only in part. Replacement costs ignore this rule and use rule 203.7.

Example: Charaxes, Killer Moth reads, “Whenever Charaxes stuns a character, you may put three character cards from your KO’d pile that share an affiliation with Charaxes on the bottom of your deck. If you do, KO that character.” You control Charaxes and have one character card that shares an affiliation with Charaxes in your KO’d pile. Charaxes stuns a character. You can choose to put the one character card on the bottom of your deck. However, this does not satisfy the “if you do” clause, and the stunned character will not be KO’d.

Players often come at effects with an all-or-nothing approach, but the game actually doesn't do that very often. The classic example is that, once an effect has begun resolving*, you complete as much of it as you can, even if certain parts can't be performed.

In the same way, when you make a decision on Empath's "you may" option (during resolution), the game doesn't look ahead to predict which actions will or won't be possible. Really, the game just wants you to make a big Yes or a big No. If you decide No, then you don't do any of the "you may" text. But if you decide Yes, you complete as much of it as possible, even if some part can't happen.

If effects are meant to have one part dependent or another, there are special ways to signal that. The "if you do" phrase that's been mentioned is a common one; "if you do" actually checks whether or not an action was successfully completed. Raising Hell is a great example of that.
Quote:
 
You may KO a Hellfire Club character you control. If you do, KO target stunned character with cost 4 or less.
The card essentially tells you that if you don't manage to actually KO a Hellfire Club character during resolution, you also don't KO the target. SO you can KO Empath to Raising Hell, and then still use Empath's "you may" text to turn down a plot twist. But you can't try and use one character to Raising Hell twice; the "if you do" phrase can see what really happened.


For reference, btw, the relevant wording appears on six cards in MXM---Empath, Firestar, Catseye, and Jetstream (four of the Hellions), plus Changeling and Postman. The MXM FAQ has an entry on the group if you ever need to refresh yourself on which cards have the wording, or what it looks like. Hope this all helps.


*I say "once an effect has begun resolving" because a lot of players get tripped up about how this rule interacts with targeting requirements. To clarify---if the target of an effect doesn't meet the required description, the effect is negated instead of resolving. So the rule about "do as much as you can" doesn't come into it.

If the target of Unnatural Selection is recovered, for example, the effect is negated and no one gets KO'd, no cards get put into the KO'd pile. But if the target of Unnatural Selection is shielded by something like Lazarus Pit or Modred, it's still a legal target, so the effect will still make it to resolution. The target can't be KO'd, but because you have to complete as much as possible, cards still get milled from deck to KO'd pile.
/size]
Edited by HeroComplex, Mar 6 2009, 05:23 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Banner75
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  * ]
So the second effect happens whether or not the character is KO'd or not, right?

Catseye

Whenever Catseye becomes stunned, you may KO her and have target Hellfire Club character you control get +2 ATK this turn.

So, after she became stunned but before you KO'd her, could you then KO her for another cost to a different effect (plot twist, location, whatever) and still get her +2 ATK effect and the effect of this new card you played?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Locke
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
If it is an actual cost or the effect checks to see if you KO'd her, you actually have to KO her, but yes. KOing Catseye does not have to happen in order to get the +2 effect. If she is no longer in play or cannot be KO'd for some reason, you will still be able to give the +2 ATK to one of your Hellfire Club characters.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HeroComplex
No Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
The short answer is that, yes, you can do what you're suggesting. But I want to make sure that you're getting to the answer the right way around, so bear with me a minute.
Quote:
 
So the second effect happens whether or not the character is KO'd or not, right?
"Effect" has a very specific meaning in Vs., so it's worth being careful how you use the word. Catseye being stunned generates just one effect, not two; that's why it all happens at once.
Quote:
 
So, after she became stunned but before you KO'd her, could you then KO her for another cost to a different effect
As Locke implied, KOing Catseye is not a cost. It's easy for players to think of it that way because it's usually not a benefit, but "cost" is another word with specific Vs. meanings. KOing Catseye is part of the effect just like giving +2 ATK to the target is.

It's also important to understand the timing that allows the trick to happen. Triggered powers always work by putting an effect on the chain, so there is always a chance to act before the triggered effect resolves. You're KOing Catseye while her triggered effect is on the chain; as a result, she won't be in play by the time her effect resolves. You choose YES for her "you may" choice, and the game gives your target +2 ATK. It also tries to KO Catseye, but since she's not there, the +2 ATK is all that actually happens.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · Rules · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Marvel Comics Character Images, Character Names and Card Text Copyright 2009 Marvel Characters Ltd. and/or Upper Deck Entertainment, LLC. DC Comics Character Images, Character Names and Card Text Copyright 2009 DC Characters Ltd. and/or Upper Deck Entertainment, LLC.