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X-Gene Decoded
Topic Started: Jun 5 2009, 09:36 AM (2,001 Views)
HeroComplex
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Warning to all concerned: a post about rules theory follows. Proceed at own risk.


I disagree that people's posts (my own included, I imagine) were missing your point. You're dismissing comments about the card's interpretation by referring to your (previous) decision on the card as an erratum. But based on posts both before and after the term "errata" came up, I believe you're using the word in terms of interpretive/clarifying errata---a card's wording is unclear, so a quick wording fix can make the intent more straight-forward for players. That's fine, but it does rely on a premise that the card is truly unclear.

Where, as here, the wording isn't much open to an alternative interpretation within the context of the game (as was the thrust of my earlier post), clarifying errata generally aren't necessary. And where the errata actually go against the standard Vs. reading of the card, I'd suggest that you shouldn't call your desired change a clarification erratum without some sort of indication that the designers had a different intent---the slim possibility that they misused a standard wording isn't enough to call it just an interpretation.

If you'd simply been saying that you didn't like how the card worked, and so were going to errata it to lower its power level, then discussions of the card's wording really would be a step removed. There, objections would be more aptly framed as being about the appropriate use of errata, etc. But when your change is premised as just interpretive, resolving an ambiguity, etc.---at that point, yes, posts about the card's wording and effect are still very relevant. Your community can certainly errata a card if you all can't stand how strong it is, it's not like any of us have any say on that---but in making the decision, it's worthwhile for everyone to know the card's real effect, and that they understand they're voting on a change to it's text, not just an interpretation.

Even beyond the issue about clarifying/power level errata, though, your community's ultimate decision has been based at times either on a third judge's reading or the community feeling as a whole. So even if you yourself wouldn't be swayed by another's logic, it's entirely possible that the other judge or members of your community would find people's posts about the card's meaning persuasive. While I still think (as described above) that discussions on the card's wording are relevant to you, they might be relevant to others from your community regardless.

Last point on the debate, I'm not comfortable with the distinction between syntax and rules---though the rules of English are certainly relevant, I think your distinction risks encouraging people to forget about the context in which they're interpreting. The designers frequently use templates to express things that come up frequently; though a templated sentence could mean multiple things out in the real world, its use on the card is still for a particular purpose. While I would never dismiss the value of a robust understanding of grammar and syntax, it would be a mistake to exercise those understandings in a vacuum.


In any case, I'm genuinely glad your community's reached a decision one way or the other; I hope everyone is okay with the result. And it's always good to hear about a community that's still playing regularly. All the best.
Edited by HeroComplex, Jun 8 2009, 04:33 PM.
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FHR-X
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I see now that it was a mistake coming here and hoping to find reasoning or logic.

Hero Complex, Uncle Chawie - You are exempted from that comment.

Edited by FHR-X, Jun 8 2009, 04:57 PM.
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Shadowtrooper
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FHR-X
Jun 8 2009, 04:48 PM
I see now that it was a mistake coming here and hoping to find reasoning or logic.

Hero Complex, Uncle Chawie - You are exempted from that comment.

I don't see how it was a mistake. You coming here created a debate full of interactions that helped not only you and your community understand why a certain card is played in a certain way, but also taught us that there are people who play those cards differently and the reasons they play the card differently.

It also gave us a chance to learn from HeroComplex's expertise and rules comprehension as to why specifically the card is played as we interpreted it. He went above and beyond explaining the templates and specific wordings that R&D used and explained to us why they did it.

To me you were stubborn, and you made clear to me that may way of thinking could also be interpreted as stubbornness. So I learned something there too.

We got a lot of positive things out of this thread but if you are only going to focus on the negative things then I guess I can understand why you think it was a mistake coming here.
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Guglio
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FHR-X
Jun 8 2009, 04:48 PM
I see now that it was a mistake coming here and hoping to find reasoning or logic.

Hero Complex, Uncle Chawie - You are exempted from that comment.

That would first require that your statement have logic in it, which it did not.
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lupercal
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Everyone that initially posted, responded with the same attitude as HC and Uncle Chawie had. They were polite and tried to help you to understand how the cards worked.

It wasnt until u essentially put your fingers in your ears and said i'm not listening that everyone got aggressive.

As far as i'm concerned it was a big mistake you coming on these forums.
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vs_savant2
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lupercal
Jun 9 2009, 12:32 PM
Everyone that initially posted, responded with the same attitude as HC and Uncle Chawie had. They were polite and tried to help you to understand how the cards worked.

It wasnt until u essentially put your fingers in your ears and said i'm not listening that everyone got aggressive.

As far as i'm concerned it was a big mistake you coming on these forums.
It was more like.

" La lA lA lA lA , I'm not listening, la la la la la"
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Jdog
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In my mind there is only question with regard to this card........What do you then do with the revealed character cards? Top of deck(most likely but what order)? Bottom of deck? Ko pile?

Text doesn't say anything about them only discusses RFGing all the others.

There is most likely a rule regarding what to do if nothing is noted about what do do with revealed cards, however I do not know it.
Edited by Jdog, Aug 24 2009, 03:14 AM.
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HeroComplex
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Revealing a card does not change where it is---the text doesn't tell you to do anything with revealed character cards, so they never leave the top of the deck.
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Jdog
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thank you =D
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DemoN
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in most cases the deck will be searched and will therefore need to be shuffled anyway. (unless 4 characters are revealed, its never happened in our play group. kind of an interesting situation)
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HeroComplex
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Also a fair point.
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unclechawie
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I don't think that is correct. As a refresher, here is the wording for the card.

X-Gene Decoded
Cost: 3

To play, exhaust a Mr. Sinister you control.

Reveal the top four cards of an opponent's deck. Remove all revealed non-character cards from the game. Search that deck for all cards with the same name as a card removed this way, then remove them from the game.

Let's take a quick peak at what would happen if you revealed all character cards.

Someone plays X-Gene Decoded and passes, all other players pass. X-Gene resolves. You reveal the top 4 cards of an opponent's deck and wham, all character cards. Since none were non-character cards no cards get removed. Then you search the deck for all copies of the removed cards. Obviously you don't find any since no cards were removed.

The thought process goes back to "resolving as much as you can." The card doesn't say, "if you removed any cards this way. . ., search. . .", it simply tells you to search the deck for all copies of the removed cards. So, back to the question at hand. What happens to the revealed character cards. Do they not get shuffled back into the deck after the search?

HC, please feel free to correct me if my logic is incorrect.
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Guglio
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You would still shuffle them, as you would search (for nothing) and then after every search of a deck, that deck is shuffled.
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HomerJ
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FHR-X
Jun 6 2009, 12:49 PM
P.P.S And HomerJ I was not laughing at you. I was laughing at the situation. I apologize if it came out like I was trying to be condescending. Cheers dude!
No harm, no foul. Thanks for being cool. And I'm sorry this thread has become so frustrating for you. As a rule, most people on our site are good-natured guys, and try to help in any way they can. I think this thread got derailed when it became a shouting match about "I'm right/You're wrong."

I think the most important thing to take away from this is that there are MANY people who are passionate about the game and the rules. Including you. Please stay, play, and forget this ugliness.
Edited by HomerJ, Aug 24 2009, 02:25 PM.
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