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A few more clarifications
Topic Started: Jul 6 2009, 07:52 PM (852 Views)
HeroComplex
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1. Does a card have to be face down to "reveal" it?
Not necessarily---is there a particular interaction you're asking about?
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2. I get how reinforcement works, but I still don't really understand. Say I'm using a beat down deck, and the character I'm attacking has no way of being reinforced unless its controller plays something from his hand. So I load up my attacker with a bunch of attack pumps and then the character's controller plays a Burn Rubber. I know I could play Blind Sided or something, but I've always just sort of wondered if there was an "order" as to which player played plot twists directly after an attack.
Because this is happening during one of your steps, you're the primary player, meaning you have the first opportunity to play effects during one of your attacks. Play however many effects you'd like. At some point you will pass to your opponent, at which point he can play however many effects he would like. Then at some point, he will pass.

Regarding passing. If your opponent took any actions, then his pass gives you priority again, which means you have another opportunity to play effects. This cycle continues until a time when both players pass in a row, with no actions in between the two passes. At that point, the game will resolve the last effect on the chain. After that effect resolves, you (as the primary player) have first opportunity to play effects, once again. If there were no effects on the chain, then both players passing in a row ends the current attack/step/phase.

This set of rules underlies quite a bit of the game. You can work through some of the trickiest timing problems by applying them to whatever situation arises. For example, with reinforcement. If you don't play any effects before passing to your opponent, and he also plays none, it is now too late to try adding a pump---two passes in a row, with no effects on the chain, means the attack is now ending. Whereas any time that someone plays an effect, the opponent will have a new chance to play effects both before it can resolve, and also after it resolves.

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3. Can I play I Hunger during the recovery phase and still gain the endurance even though the combat phase has passed? Or do I have to play it before any stun endurance is taken for me to gain it?
It only applies to stun endurance loss that would occur after I Hunger resolves. It can't go back and alter stuns that already occurred.


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1. Can a card be revealed more than once?
Generally, yes; as with the earlier #1, is there a particular interaction you're asking about?
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2. Regarding cards like Sage and Mariko Yashida - Sunfire, can I shift the same card in and out of play, then shift it back in, recruit/shift Sage or Mariko into play and have their effects count twice for that character or only once since it's the same character?
Couple things. First, Sage and Mariko both specifically only count characters you currently control, so they don't care about how many times you've shifted or recruited. They just look at each character you control and determine "did it enter play this turn," yes or no. Second, when a card changes zones, it becomes an entirely new card. Suppose you Panoptichron out a Sage, and then pay some resource points and shift Sage in. The Sage that is shifted into play is not the same as the Sage who was earlier shifted out, they're different characters.
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3. If I use Blink - Team Leader's effect and remove some characters during my recruit step, then she gets stunned before my attack step, do those characters still return to play at the start of my attack step?
Effects are independent of their sources---from the moment that Blink triggers upon entering play, it no longer matters what happens to her. Even if she is immediately KO'd after the effect goes on the chain, the effect will still resolve, creating what's called a "delayed triggered modifier." It's essentially a floating triggered power. The DTM will wait for the start of your attack step to trigger, generating the effect that will bring in your characters. You only need Blink long enough for her to enter play, after that everything's already in motion.


Hope that helps.
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P.J.C.
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Thanks bkwrds and Hero Complex, that really helps me a lot, but both of your answers for question #2 in my second post regarding Mariko and Sage are still confusing me a little bit. it seems like you're contradicting each other. Other than that, you guys have been a great help. I have a few others that have come from me play testing my Exiles deck:

1. I noticed that a character is not allowed to have more shift counters on it than it's cost. So say I use Panoptichron to shift out a 3 drop, can I drop 2 of those counters on a shifted 3 drop with 1 counter and then the other shift counter just doesn't take effect? Or do I have to use Panoptichron in accordance with how many shift counters are on a character and it's cost?

2. Also when I use Panoptichron does the character that I shift out get 1 shift counter, or is it just "shifted"? This slightly goes along with that, but can I remove a shift counter from a character with 1 shift counter and have it still be considered shifted?

Thanks again!


Oh and Hero Complex, regarding the revealing questions, I have an old Avengers reservist beatdown I have a lot of fun playing with and I've just always been curious about whether or not I could keep revealing the same cards with Avengers Mansion.
Edited by P.J.C., Aug 22 2009, 11:00 PM.
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bkwrds
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Oh, dude... If anyone contradicts HeroComplex in a rules thread, there's a 99.9% chance that the person contradicting HC is wrong. He worked on the Rules Team for Vs, so he's kind of like the Pope as far as that's concerned. He's right when he's wrong.
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Bliven731
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For your #2, there is a key wording in the card that makes Herocomplex right. Sage and Mariko both state for each (or each other) character ---you control--- that entered play this turn. This means that the games checks every character you currently control and sees if that character entered play this turn.

Compare this wording to the wording for surrounded from the MSM set. the number of characters you recruited this turn. It doesn't matter if all of those characters are gone now in this case, all that matters is how many you recruited (shifting isn't recruiting, this is just an example).

HC, maybe you could confirm this, but if they wanted to sage or mariko to count for the same character twice, wouldn't they use this wording? (Sage's text) When sage enters play, draw a card for each other character that entered play under your control this turn. This wording checks how many characters entered play under your control this turn, not how many characters you control that entered play this turn. See the difference?
Edited by Bliven731, Aug 23 2009, 06:36 AM.
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HeroComplex
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HC, maybe you could confirm this, but if they wanted to sage or mariko to count for the same character twice, wouldn't they use this wording?
Or something like it, yeah. The Legion FAQ actually helps lay out the distinction a bit---both types of powers are represented in that set.
FAQ
 
Order and Chaos
Plot Twist, 2
Target defender you control gets +1 ATK / +1 DEF this attack for each Teen Titans character you control that came into play this turn.


This counts Teen Titans characters you currently control that came into play this turn, regardless of what affiliations they had as they came into play (or whether they came into play under your control). Contrast with T-Jet, Tamaranian Fighter.


T-Jet, Tamaranian Fighter
Equipment, 2
Unique <p> T-Jet costs 1 less to recruit for each Teen Titans character that came into play under your control this turn. <p> Characters you control get +1 ATK / +1 DEF and have flight.


This counts characters that had the Teen Titans affiliation as they came into play under your control this turn, regardless of what affiliations they currently have or whether they are still in play or under your control. Contrast with Order and Chaos.
Order and Chaos, like Mariko and Sage, looks at each character you control to figure out who fits the description. T-Jet, on the other hand, looks back to count how many times you had the right type of character come into play.

Assume that Exiles and Teen Titans are fully teamed up. You shift in a Blink, then shift her out with something. You then pay whatever you need to get your shifted Blink ready, and shift her in. For Order and Chaos, Sage, and Mariko, this whole process nets you one +1/+1, one card, and two endurance loss, respectively. Those cards count up how many characters you control that entered play this turn, and Blink fits that bill.

For T-Jet, though, that whole process lowers the cost by 2. The Blink you currently control is still only one relevant character, but T-Jet looks back and sees that there were two entirely different Blinks that came into play under your control this turn. One Blink has since left play, while the other is still around, but each one counts for T-Jet.



On your new questions---once an effect is resolving, you resolve it as much as possible. Whoever you choose for Panoptichron, put however many shift counters on them as they can handle. And if an effect means for you to put shift counters on a card, it'll tell you that specifically; if it doesn't indicate, the character is simply shifted. A shifted card gains the Shift keyword, if it didn't already have it, so you'll be able to add shift counters even if the character does not normally have Shift. And a shifted card stays that way until it changes zones.


On Avengers Mansion, you can absolutely use character cards for the reveal multiple times. Two points. 1) A resource that is "revealed" is not the same as a resource that is "face-up." The cards you show for Avengers Mansion are revealed, but still considered face-down by the game. 2) The resources do not stay revealed after the effect from Avengers Mansion has resolved.
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P.J.C.
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Thanks guys. You've been a tremendous amount of help.
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P.J.C.
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Alright so I have another question.

If someone plays 2 Firepits of Apokolips at separate times, what happens when they switch to the opponent's resource row that already has a face up Firepits in it? Does that player have to KO a resource? Can the opposing player even play two? Or does that player have the option to turn these face down? Or is Firepits just non-unique?
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HomerJ
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You only have to check for Uniqueness (and KO a unique location) when you flip the location. Because it's already face up, it doesn't check for uniqueness and you end up with multiples.

So, to clarify:
First, I flip Firepits of Apokolips #1, exhaust a character and send it to you.
Then, I flip Firepits of Apokolips #2, since I don't control a face up Firepits of Apokolips, uniqueness passes. I then exhaust a character, and send it your way again. Since the card is not being played/flipped when it passes to you, it doesn't check for uniqueness, and you now control two copies.

Rinse and repeat.
Edited by HomerJ, Sep 17 2009, 10:05 PM.
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HeroComplex
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None of the above. The game isn't checking uniqueness all the time, you only ever have to check it when recruiting, shifting, substituting, flipping locations, or attaching equipment. If you flip a Firepits when there's already one face-up in your row, you absolutely have to chuck one to the KO'd pile; that just never happens in your scenario.
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Manwithoutfear
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wow, maybe we should move this discussion to the Decks Strategy thread and see how we can capitalize Firepits in a Darksied deck to reduce the opponents resource row...
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