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| Proposition: Create new Age | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 20 2009, 04:52 AM (1,497 Views) | |
| EvilDave | Sep 20 2009, 04:52 AM Post #1 |
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I started this as a minor mention, but though I might throw it out there. Some sets are simply WAY more powerful than others. This is kind of a given, and enabled the "Age" concept. The other reason for "Ages" was, of course, to generate sales. That is no longer an issue. Also understand I don't subscribe to the "casuals play this because they won't build broken decks"; it doesn't happen, even in the non-competitive world there are plenty of not-good players that take pleasure in winning a lot, and will play casuals with good decks. So, what do I feel are the "broken" sets? Generally, these cards had multiple banned cards that were based on IN-SET COMBOS, or cards many felt should be banned, they are: MOR Crisis MEV Heralds of Galactus The other bans (Go Down Fighting / Dr. Light / GBNF / JLoA) had combos that were simply unthought from other sets; Dr. Light became a problem with Poison Ivy / Frankie abuse, GBNF with Fiddler tricks, GDF with a wierd obscure deck giving Tommy reservist, and JLoA with pre-combat recursion tricks. MOR simply wasn't well-though out; few games' first set is. It was developed after an emergency system was created (because the original sucked), and they threw the cards together. Things like Reign, Cosmic Radiance, TNB, and other cards that do too much still exist in there. Its a set that allows for quick kills, weird combos, and non-stunned 3-drops to be "KOed" (returned to hand) with one plot twists. Crisis was the attempt at getting sales through a power push; and Heralds followed it up. Both gave overly-good stats to all of their guys, and made things like Quicksilver and the Fatifacts and Ahmed. Their cards pushed the bounderies a little TOO much; there's just no good way to say anything else. And I think we can all agree that everything about the last set, from Energize to the Exiles (even post-blink) to cable legend were too good for cards. They made the set to sell by providing the highest power cards possible. The point is, without these sets (plus the Galactus box set/DC Crisis box, which introduced several generics that, well, do far too much for a generic and allow things that weren't meant to be), the game becomes open again. Try building decks without them, you don't really get the consistant turn 4 kills, over easy controls, or weird combo decks. The closest you get is SHIELD burn (and for the record, I would almost put MUN here as well; SHIELD burn and the Captain really are just too easy to pull off), which is a fragile aggro deck; Spiderfriends the control deck; and combos are gone (well, all but weird 5-card combos; basically there is no "simple" combo deck). It offers the most fun setup possible. I really think it goes beyond card banning sadly at this point; these sets were all meant to push bounderies or weren't well-thought out. DC Crisis and Heralds were just a small set of cards that sadly included generics that either stifled creativity (Pathetic Attempt, Omnipotence, Only Human) or made something that should be "near impossible" (Cloning) happen far too easily (Crisis on Infinite Earths did this as well, but that one disappears). It's a shame, I love JSA and listed JSA/Crisis as my "deck forever", but the cards were truly, truly over-the-top. Thoughts / comments? I'd rather avoid comments on trying to list indivual cards to "ban" if possible, that can be another thread, but thoughts on revising and adding an age? For the record, I also like the concept of ranking teams and having "Ages" being based on the powers of teams, but that is a little arbitrary / swayed by Judge's opinions, this is an easier setup. I truly believe this would birth a "Golden" age where there are lots of options but removing the cards that make that age too fast / comby. |
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| conykchameleon | Sep 20 2009, 05:25 AM Post #2 |
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Short answer: Yes! Thank you! Finally! More Intelligible Answer: If you're picking four sets those are probably good ones. I might trade out Heralds for MVL though. IMHO there are more things in that set than there are in Heralds that I would never want to see again. Quicksilver would still be banned though. Though the pool is so large at this point, I'm not sure even something like this sovles the problem. Notice, I'm not sure, but that's just my initial reaction. I think bannnings/shrinking of the card pool has to be based on format. For example, if you're doing Build A Legend, you're not going to ban MVL. If you're playing Big Deck, it probably doesn't make a big of difference what you ban. Just a thought. What I would be more in favor of is doing random or mashed-up "Ages". Say you do Cosmic Age. Heralds, Universe, GL Corps, and Legion of Superheroes. I don't know, something like that. Just some on topic thoughts. |
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| KardKrazy | Sep 20 2009, 08:13 AM Post #3 |
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"'I've got a huge" Member
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Wait? You actually consider MOR a broken set=\. Wow the only two sets I think that gave us way over powered cards is: MEV MCG I definitely don't consider Crisis or Heralds a broken set either. Given they pushed the envelope I don't think they offered any cards that are more powerful than cards from MVL, DCL, and MUN. Because I see MUN and MHG to be the most two powerful sets that weren't over powered (well obviously after they got rid of the free characters). If I was to agree to play in a format like this I would only agree to having cards from MEV and MCG not allowed. Just my input, Kj Edited by KardKrazy, Sep 20 2009, 08:15 AM.
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| kariggi | Sep 20 2009, 03:40 PM Post #4 |
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Hero For Hire
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I see dave's point and was thinking what about MUN until her got there, I still would as Hulk for all his flaws is very solid and so are in general so many darn cards and themes from that deck. So I'd have to raise you DOR/MUN if you want to take the breaks out... This is why of course I'm happy our qualifier will be type 1 er open golden with standard ban list +Blink 3 / AE errata. |
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| EvilDave | Sep 20 2009, 04:51 PM Post #5 |
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Actually, you'd be suprised to know I think MOR is the MOST overpowered set. It wasn't well thought out; it's an odd mix of overpowered and underpowered cards. Generic 5 damage like Suprise attack + TNB lead to turn 3 kills (especially mixed with other sets). Mr. Fantastic's equipment moving with no limitation is set up for all kinds of sillyness, and is actually a limiting factor for fan sets. And I think we can all agree that a plot twist shouldn't "unrecruit" 3 resource points worth of things like Reign of Terror. Yes, some things are balanced, but not a lot; mostly it's just under-curve or overcurve. Crisis was a real "push the bounderies" set, and gave us Ahmed, Fateifacts, and a host of characters that stall too easily. Heralds similarly added the Press Mechanic, Quicksilver (we know that guy), etc. I don't want to point fingers at specific cards (I just did?), but those sets were real attempts by Yip of improving sales via power creep; they quickly "toned it down" afterwards, but you'll notice those sets produced a LOT of banned cards for good reason. Generally I eliminated sets that produced banned cards that were banned for their real interactions; and those that you can look at and say "wow, those are power crept and stifle creativity". MUN is really close, but inevitably Wolverine is the only "worrysome" card, and it produced no banned list, and the SHIELD deck is fairly fragile, so let it be. I tried for the most part to keep sets in, I just thought "what sets, if eliminated, would produce the most open metagame while making turn 4 kills difficult-to-impossible but not making turn 5 difficult-to-impossible". And that was what I came up with. I want control potential without control dominance, I want lots of card pool without things that stifle creativity. |
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| conykchameleon | Sep 20 2009, 05:36 PM Post #6 |
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I'm completely on board with losing MOR. I know Dave asked us not to, but I feel the need to mention specific cards. Cosmic Radiation? Just not a reasonable card. Any decently built TNB deck always has a change of winning in Golden. Against A-NY-THING. And I'm going to get flamed for this, but IMO a card that should be banned is a card that is a everyone plays with, because it's just that good...and from MOR, that's Savage Beatdown. Seriously, if everyone's running 4x, why don't we just ban it and open up that slot for more creative decks? |
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| vs_savant2 | Sep 20 2009, 06:54 PM Post #7 |
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Zen Master of the Versus Arts
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I will not post anything in this thread after this post. Nothing good will come of this thread. |
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| Orange_Soda_Man | Sep 20 2009, 08:00 PM Post #8 |
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Yolo Boros
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MOR, from a constructed standpoint, was definitley the most powerful set, save maybe MEV. I'm all for 'flavored' ages. Maybe we can have some based on storylines too, that way we can try to get 'block drafting' or something. |
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| conykchameleon | Sep 20 2009, 08:06 PM Post #9 |
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Can you explain this a little more? I'm assuming block drafting is a term that I should be familiar with....but I'm not.
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| Guglio | Sep 20 2009, 09:07 PM Post #10 |
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Don't You Know Who I Am?
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I agree, but not with Crisis. Sure, Ahmed and the Artifacts were good, but the rest of the cards, hell the teams themselves are fine. I'm more in line with ommitting certain cards rather than the whole set. Do you really want to axe the Secret Six because Ahmed could search locations, or the Shadowpact because the Fate Artifacts give +4/+4 for 3 equipment? I don't. |
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| EvilDave | Sep 20 2009, 09:33 PM Post #11 |
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Eh, maybe the Crisis set does come down to one card, the factifact set, making it too easy to exploit fast kills and locks. Banning the +1/+1 portion of that would still leave cloak seeing occasional play, so maybe in that case it IS a specific card (set of cards?). Ahmed I have no real issue with, save that decks that search 3 times a turn can start to get annoying. But power-wise, he's fine; on par with Poison Ivy etc, and Checkmate didn't get a ton of support. It's just a fairly power-crept set in general, which was what I was trying to pull out here. Ultimatly speaking, MOR and MEV are the "too much to try to fix" sets, I think everyone is correct on these. Thinking more, we could keep my beloved Crisis by just doing SOMETHING about the fatifacts. And Heralds, well I think most people agree Quicksilver needs "to go" (again, eliminate consistant turn 4 kills Job #1 in this new format), there is a pretty heavy power base there, but not so much that it is stifling. So maybe: MEV and MOR gone (power crept/not well thought out, overly easy stall AND overly easy aggro-burns, neither set were made with "full development teams") Galactus Box Set gone (stifles creativity with generics) And then get rid of 1 card from each of the remainders: The +1/+1 per equip fatifact (just too easy to set up insano-attack/wall) Quicksilver (Long overdue, when a deck can run 12 guys and win something is wrong; has too many turn 4 kills associated) Clash of Worlds (need when not exploited, but the game was designed not expecting it to be easy to clone guys; far too many exploits to count). Would that be a better "Golden Age"? (And sorry for breaking my vow of single cards, just responding to the useful comments; and the goal IS to make something pretty close to Golden where most things can be played; but eliminate the "problems" of Golden mostly linked with MOR). |
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| Orange_Soda_Man | Sep 21 2009, 01:51 AM Post #12 |
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Yolo Boros
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using packs that make sense to draft with together. Having ages that consist of sets that make sense to put together from a flavor standpoint. |
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| Piccolo-21 | Sep 21 2009, 01:05 PM Post #13 |
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Regular
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I've been trying to figure something like this out for awhile. So just to be sure that I understand your suggestion... The "New" Golden Age would consist of all sets and cards except the following. 1. MOR 2. MUN 3. MHG 4. DCR - Amulet of Nabu 5. MHG - Quicksilver - Inhuman by Marriage 6. Clash of Worlds? |
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| KardKrazy | Sep 21 2009, 01:48 PM Post #14 |
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"'I've got a huge" Member
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I want to say that I think the Fate Artifacts are fine. It is when you mix them with Quicksilver that they become broken. Are they uber strong? Yes. Are they broken? No. Quicksilver was the problem, is a problem, and will always be a problem. As for Turn 4 kills. My Sinister Syndicate deck can kill Turn 4 easily. And it was nothing but cards from MTU, DJL, and MAV. The only thing it really lost to at the time of Silver Age when it was built was the occassional Kree (only because it could up the DEF of their characters to the point I was wasting my ATK pumps to stun them) and Spider-Stall. So with this knowledge would you ban MTU since it has the cards that enable a consistant Turn 4 win? I don't know Dave. You know I respect your opinions and deck building skills but trying to create a format that won't have Turn 3 or 4 kills will just (in my eyes) spawn a format of Spider-Stall for those who want to win. Because when you mingle MTU with MSM. Spider-Stall goes from "great" to "ungodly". later, Kj |
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| EvilDave | Sep 21 2009, 02:43 PM Post #15 |
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No, your sinister syndicate is fragile and kills turn 4 left relatively unfought. That's "fine"... decks that are consistant on turn 4 kills vs opposition (TNB, Quicksilver) are the issue. As to Spider-stall, I need to see it is the key. But regardless, I think we can agree on a few things: *Golden is broken as a format... you can make it work with a local group you know is Casual, but it can't be played in regular setup. So what are other thoughts? Does Spider-Stall become "ungodly" in this new format? I haven't seen great spider-stall already; but he is right that Spiderman 7 and Scarlet Spider make it much, much better (when it's already considered one of the best decks). Does the format become Spider-Stall vs MUN SHIELD (or decks with alt-burnout options)? The goal here is the most open format possible; a long-term metagame we could accept (assuming no other sets are voted in). Maybe what Orange is saying is right; maybe rather than make 1 open format, have the "default" setup for open play on MWS be some kind of "rotating block" where the council announces 10 sets that are "legal" for the month? Or maybe the team tiering is the call? My point is that Modern/Silver/Golden doesn't seem to be the right setup anymore (now that it's not needed to promote sales), and UDE has left us with the "poison pill" of MEV and Galactus Box Set permanently clogging up EVERY format. I'd like some way to clean that up. Plus, it needs to be interesting; if the formats don't even change even the most diehard will quit out. Thoughts from those who still play a good bit? Edited by EvilDave, Sep 21 2009, 02:45 PM.
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