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Proposition: Create new Age
Topic Started: Sep 20 2009, 04:52 AM (1,499 Views)
conykchameleon
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I disagree.

I think there are more broken/breakable cards in MEV than all other sets COMBINED. MEV is almost comically unbalanced, and never should have happened.

For PA and Omni, yeah you can just ban those two. Since those are the only things that see play out of MCG.
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KardKrazy
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Abyss
Sep 23 2009, 12:26 AM
It seems the problems people are having is with specific cards, not the sets themselves. Just because some MEV cards are broken doesn't mean the entire set is, for example.

And as mentioned, all removing sets is going to do is open up room for the next top tier deck to dominate.

If people are worried about it, I think it makes far more sense to 'softban' the broken cards, and not specific sets.

See I agree with this more than banning entire sets.
later,
Kj
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Ike E Bear
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I kind of agree with everyone in different ways.

I feel that axing whole sets isn't quite the solution it seems to be for Golden Age. I think if you want to balance the format, bans have to be targeted at specific problem cards (we do this locally).

At the same time, yeah MEV is pretty close to busted. It's just way, way, way more powerful than almost everything else that came before it. It clearly wasn't tested properly.

I reckon Pathetic Attempt and Omnipotence are cards that really do make Vs as a game less fun, but there are some effects that are just so powerful that they are almost a necessary evil. Perhaps without those, though, the likes of PA and Omni could be banned without too much angst.

In our local group we make bans quite arbitarily ... Ahmed has been banned for ages but we've recently eased up on him because he's not nearly as scary as some of the newer cards. Originally we just hated that every deck needed to run so much hidden and equipment hate that it constrained your deck building.

When it comes to formats, I think local playing groups shoudl do whatever works for them.
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conykchameleon
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Ike E Bear
Sep 23 2009, 01:21 AM
When it comes to formats, I think local playing groups shoudl do whatever works for them.
YES!!!!! Thank you.

The reason I was involved with this thread was to get some ideas, because I smelled EvilDave was steppin in, as the French say. Somewhere along the line, it became a debate on whether or not we should make options instead of discussion of what the options should be.
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EvilDave
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As much as I agree MEV is the most broken as a set; Origins, on the other hand, is what makes Golden completly unplayable. MEV has an over-influence on sadly EVERY format; I'd love to see formats where it is NOT legal. Making that uber-set was UDE's way of saying "go to another of our games"; now that I've seen Banjo's set, I know what a 1 (or 2 in their case) person design set can be made. They knew what they were doing; they wanted to spur sales, and it sucks for us. MOR, too many combo cards and cards that speed the format.

Those have to go, yes, Heralds comes down to 2 cards, and these aren't nearly so much "broken" as "Creatively Stifling"; they make every team that uses target effects more or less useless; and those ARE my favorite teams.

I hate the words "that deck isn't casual enough"... if the format isn't what people are looking for, you fix it. I remember a few people complaining about my "JLA/LoA" deck as "Not casual enough"; a deck based around flipping WorldEaters and playing JLA/LoA (New Era/The Demon's Head with Superman cloning sub-theme).

And that's where I feel Shadowtrooper's argument fails; sure, it works fine on a small group of local friends, but not if they want to have a tournament here one day. Not if you want to have open internet play.
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Ike E Bear
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I agree that open internet, in particular, would need more "controls" than local play. People are less likely to be accountable to people they don't have to look in the eye. That's just human nature.

I can definitely see where Dave is comign from with Origins, but I also think that it's mainly a handful of cards (many of which are very, very powerful or open to abuse). Whole teams are fine, as they don't have the focus on an over powered keyword or theme that makes them crazy synergistic and effective.
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Shadowtrooper
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EvilDave
Sep 23 2009, 02:02 AM
I hate the words "that deck isn't casual enough"... if the format isn't what people are looking for, you fix it. I remember a few people complaining about my "JLA/LoA" deck as "Not casual enough"; a deck based around flipping WorldEaters and playing JLA/LoA (New Era/The Demon's Head with Superman cloning sub-theme).

And that's where I feel Shadowtrooper's argument fails; sure, it works fine on a small group of local friends, but not if they want to have a tournament here one day. Not if you want to have open internet play.
This is the problem I see with this proposition. We no longer have UDE's tourneys or support for hobby league so pretty much the competitive aspect of Vs resides on local tourneys. Is it that hard or difficult to play friendly games outside of these few events? Do you really want eliminate that small amount of competitive play left? I certainly don't.

Once you remove the "problematic" sets, and new decks become the standard, the new killers of the format, what then? Will you ban more sets just to reinvent Golden once more? When will it stop? Seriously leave Golden alone, you want to make a new format I am all for it but changing Golden is not a good idea.
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conykchameleon
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Shadowtrooper
Sep 23 2009, 04:24 AM
Once you remove the "problematic" sets, and new decks become the standard, the new killers of the format, what then? Will you ban more sets just to reinvent Golden once more? When will it stop? Seriously leave Golden alone, you want to make a new format I am all for it but changing Golden is not a good idea.
The name of the Topic is.....wait for it....Create A NEW Age
Edited by conykchameleon, Sep 23 2009, 05:10 AM.
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Shadowtrooper
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conykchameleon
Sep 23 2009, 05:10 AM
Shadowtrooper
Sep 23 2009, 04:24 AM
Once you remove the "problematic" sets, and new decks become the standard, the new killers of the format, what then? Will you ban more sets just to reinvent Golden once more? When will it stop? Seriously leave Golden alone, you want to make a new format I am all for it but changing Golden is not a good idea.
The name of the Topic is.....wait for it....Create A NEW Age
yes it is and interestingly enough if you read the first post you see...

wait for it...

EvilDave
 
I truly believe this would birth a "Golden" age where there are lots of options but removing the cards that make that age too fast / comby.
Even if the topic is that of a new format the concept is in fact a change in Golden Age to limit or eliminate the quantity of broken decks found in the format.
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EvilDave
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Sure, but true "Golden" isn't going away. But that's not the default for online right now; that's usually Silver/Modern. And there's no real reason for this... we've agreed in this thread that MEV is borderline the most degenerate set printed. MOR caused a lot of problems; some of which aren't "broken" per se but not well thought out (Mr. F's ability to move equipment infinite times, for instance). Without MOR, and a few "select" cards that allow bad setups (Dr. Fate's Tower, Quicksilver). And look at the threads above... PA and Omni are wanted to be gone, not because they're "broken", but because they make games less fun (again, open up the format).

In short, I'd like a great "default online" format. I'd like to see tourneys again (online tourneys?) that support this format, and allow cool sets like Banjo's (which thusfar has been the only "ready for press" set I've seen) or the DSM-2 to get involved and expand this format.
Edited by EvilDave, Sep 23 2009, 02:39 PM.
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conykchameleon
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Evildave,
Off topic and out of curiousity, which set are you talking about?
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OnyxWeapon
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wow. i'm kind of beside myself reading through this set here. I'm not even going to begin to address some of the issues that have come up. EX: what set is overpowered etc....

In our local playing community, as soon as UDE bailed on the VS System project, we immediately saw how flawed and pointless keeping to the old Golden/Silver/Modern bit was. especially since as of that moment those formats as we knew them were never ever going to change again. It didn't take long before we began playing a completely different scheme as our "replacement" Golden Age, if you will.

Bring Your Own Modern-
every player constructs a 60 card deck made exclusively from cards within any 4 consecutive set cardpool. This way at any given tournament that we use this event template, a player (old or new) has something they can bring that:
a- they enjoy
b- kicks butt
c- will be matched up against decks it never would have seen in its own modern era.

of course we also enforce the blink(3) and armed escort reccomendations as well as the current banned list.

then there are of course alternative formats we have established that we can further use. for example, BYOM random punks.

Sure we throw down with some classic bring your own team, Bring your own team-up etc... but for the most part,Bring your own modern has been resoundingly popular and promotes a fun casual yet competitive environment where you never know what you'll see.
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KardKrazy
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Thumbs up on that post Oxy!! I really like that idea=).
later,
Kj
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EvilDave
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I like BYOM too, for the record; stops cards from having too much reach. Plus, no sets technically include the Heralds stuff, so even if you bring the last 4 you don't have to deal with PA/Omni/cloning :).

Better than BYOT because it prevents brotherhood from accessing the "Reservists" that truly sent them "over the edge", limits those who want to play MOR to playing it alongside 3 of the weakest sets ever printed, and prevents the more powerful Spider-friends deck from getting access to Ben and Spiderman 7.

Overall I like it; can't think of one complaint :). That may be the best "default" for online play. Plus, as new sets are rotated in, they could be given their "position", if you will.

And the set I'd like in is this: http://s11.zetaboards.com/vssystem/topic/7162837/13/#new . Said it many times, this set really proved to me that UDE had "no excuse" for not being able to make a balanced set with only 2 guys... this guy more-or-less did it on his own. Probably the best set I've seen ever, and that includes the printed sets (said this many times :)).

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Grumqa
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Interesting. For the sorts of decks I build (DC), there are a few BYOM ages that would work well: DGL/DJL, DJL/DCR, and DWF/DCL. Unfortunately, DOR is isolated by DSM.

Are there particular ages that dominate?
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