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Proposition: Create new Age
Topic Started: Sep 20 2009, 04:52 AM (1,498 Views)
bkwrds
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is a Gypsy Doom
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I'd say the most powerful, not including the last four sets, would likely be:

JLA/Xmen/Crisis/Heralds
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Trader2699
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It's funny, this conversation seems to crop up in any collectible game. It exists in Magic, Heroclix, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc.

No matter how fair you think the cardpool is, there will always be the most powerful decks. This is the nature of collectibles, there are cards and there are good cards. I don't use the word "broken," it only exists as a point of reference to something else.

I tend to agree with Trooper for the most part. If you guys create your new age, there will be a new best deck, and this conversation will begin again. If you keep creating new ages, or cutting what you call "broken," you will end up with a cardpool of all alike cards. No flavor, no difference.

Do what you want, it's not like you can effect my playgroup. No OP, no prize support means we get to play what we want. Just my 2 cents.
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bkwrds
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is a Gypsy Doom
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Well, I think the idea of making a new format is finding those new decks. Instead of feeling restricted by matching the power of MEV and MOR, you can try new (but competitive) ideas. It's about the creativity of finding all those decks, and later on, the solutions. I know I can already achieve this through casual play. What I can't achieve is the feeling of building decks for a brand new format and watching everyone else in the community try to do the same. Where we all wrestle with the same ideas and problems, help each other a little, and keep a couple secrets.

The point of getting rid of a couple sets is that we can all take the gloves off without killing kittens. I don't want to play Exiles or Bosom Buddies, or another f*ing Brotherhood or X-Men deck, but I also hate losing. Should I have to choose between the two? Make a format without all the "evil cards" we're tired of... sure, it'd be an exercise in futility in some ways, because there'd be a new tier 1 eventually, but at least we'd get to see something new for once.

I am so amazed by how difficult it is to get this community to agree on any initiative. I think many of us would rather see nothing happen than anything. This has been proven time and time again. I'd rather see a something that even a majority of us disagree with than a nothing. Really. Even if I'm included in that majority.

Like it's already been said in this thread, a new format wouldn't affect your playgroup unless you wanted it to. Still, it'd be fun to see a whole bunch of us working towards building the best deck in a new format again.

Lots of different folks have come up with different small ideas, and we generally as a group shoot them down. When people say a new format isn't needed... well, what is needed? How can we lengthen the life span of our community?

I'm interested in helping to fine tune this format if any input is necessary from non-accomplished players like myself. I am interested in organizing an event for a new format. I hope others will offer suggestions instead of teling us that each idea is a bad one, even though it doesn't infringe on their ability to play with their friends.
Edited by bkwrds, Sep 25 2009, 01:30 AM.
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Shadowtrooper
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EvilDave
Sep 24 2009, 08:27 PM
I like BYOM too, for the record; stops cards from having too much reach. Plus, no sets technically include the Heralds stuff, so even if you bring the last 4 you don't have to deal with PA/Omni/cloning
Why wouldn't you? MCG is tied to MVL as much as Hellboy is tied to MTU. If you exclude these sets then that format will never allow to see cards from:

DBM
MFF
EHC
DCX
MEX
MAA
MUL
MEQ
MXS

Honestly that would suck, I do however really like the idea of BYOM. Its something I have never heard of and well that can easily spring into BYOSilver which will be a bit more broken but fun none the less.
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EvilDave
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That doesn't particularly sadden me; 4 cards see play in all of those combined, and 3 of them are "major problems" (haven't really seen decks from the equip set). Sets shouldn't get advantaged; and again I think Galactus and MEV were, more or less, poison pills for the game. So for now, assume no set is tied; subsets just don't exist in this.

And maybe there is some way to break this? But I doubt it; decks at least have "general reach", they look a little around them. And even if there are, hey, it's something we have to find; compare that to Golden/Silver/Modern now. People are already theorizing what the most broken sets are now :). Then we'll change the "default" format again.

But this is a good starting point, unlimited options, but you have to limit your card pool somewhat. Prevents overly far reach. You could experiment with allowing 5 set reach, or 3 set reach, etc etc.

But leave it as it is and things will get... no, have already gotten... stale and boring and degenerate.
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Shadowtrooper
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What do you mean 4 of those cards see play? You nuts dude?

Black Panther - MEQ (Captain America's Shield Abuse)
Pathetic Attempt - MCG (almost every deck)
Ominpotence - MCG (almost every deck)
Human Torch, Herald - MCG (Clone Saga Meta for Spider-Man)
Air-Walker, Herald - MCG (Stall decks)
Call In A Favor - MEX (Bunch of Decks)
Human Torch, Fiery Friend - MEX (Spider-Stall builds)
Common Bond - MEX (Exiles / Sinister Syndicate)
Silver Surfer's Board - MEX (Heralds Builds)
Silver Surfer, Last Zenn-Lavian - MEX (acceleration for Galactus on 8)
Dr. Doom, Power-Hungry - MEX (Crisis Doom)
A Clash of Worlds - DCX (a bunch of decks)
Alan Scott, Golden Age Engineer - DCX (Straight JSA or JSA + X-Factor)
Roshambo - DCX (Insanity)
At Your Service - DCX (GK builds)
Superman/Batman Robot - DCX (A deck was actually made for him using...)
Teen Supremes - DCX (Superman/Batman Robot deck)
Flying High - DCX (Team Superman builds)
Bring It On! - DCX (JLA Trinity based builds)
Origin Story- - DCX (any freaking army deck like SHIELD)
Gah-Lak-Tus, Ultimates - MUL (Gah-Lak-Tus deck)
Cyclops, Ultimates - MUL(Gah-Lak-Tus deck)
Spider-Man, Ultimates - MUL (Spider-Stall Clone Saga)
Spider-Man, Zombie - MAA (Spider-Stall Clone Saga)


Eugenio's Horsemen deck used MAA's Cyclops, Havok, Holocaust.
X-babies have used Bishop and X-Men Assemble!
Jean Grey, Phoenix Rising decks use MAA's Jean Grey
MMA's Wolverine + X-Men Assemble! was pretty sweet
Doom Patrol + Horseman used almost every Horseman card in MAA
Shaft used almost every MUL card

Flying Kick - MFF and EHC (a ton of decks)
Hunte Castle - EHB (MKKO and IG Concealed)
BPRD Signal Device - EHB (quite a few decks)
A Proud Zinco Product - EHB (meta choice for Quickfate and variants)
B.P.R.D. HQ, Non-Unique - EHB (Deep Green Variants)
Abe Sapien, icthyo sapien - EHB (Bizarro World decks, the bad ones)
Hellboy, The Right Hand of Doom EHB (X-Statix builds)

I have no clue as to why you say only 4 of these cards see play, and I am sure to have missed a few cause I am tired of the post.
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EvilDave
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You're right; some of those cards see play. But not really. Like, you're right; some cards get eliminated, but the "Modern" era set is already going to be very powerful; giving it extra sets won't help the matter. And again, once people are able to "break" this age, we can come up with another age that may in some way incorporate those :).

The point is Shadowtrooper, if you feel there's another way to go about it propose something. Your idea of "just play golden and hope nobody brings anything broken" works great with a local playgroup; not an online playgroup. I seriously don't want people to complain in a format that I made a deck that is "too good"; I love constraining myself and making new challenges, but at the end of the day I also like to try to win. And if we want to keep things going without UDE, we really do need to keep them fresh, keep finding new formats to find the "broken deck" in.

Meanwile, I'd like to make a move to try to organize a kind of league with this format. Assuming DSM-2 is coming out soon, we can try to incorporate that in as well. Also, council get busy on some new text for Bizzaro World that reflects the flavor of DSM-2; been far too long since Bizzaro Text got an update.

And as far as "broken decks", there are a lot of different possibilities; current-modern seems the best "on paper" (Exiles even without blink-3, SHIELD burn, Wolvie Legend), but some of the older weapons (Heralds/Crisis, old-school Doom) may be enough to counteract them.
Edited by EvilDave, Sep 25 2009, 12:14 PM.
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Shadowtrooper
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In DSM-2 Bizarro World does have a new text and it does incorporate a theme of the Revenge Squad in that set. DSM-2 is in the final weeks of testing. Expect previews to start in about 2 weeks or so, October 10th has been set as our goal.

I already said that 2 random sets from each company can be taken to form a new modern, and then 2 more random sets to create the new Silver. As for Golden there really isn't much that can be done except ban certain cards and sets which I do not think is the best thing to do because of the possibility of entering a downward spiral of keep banning the next best thing.

There are other options like start rotating the sets, pick random teams to form an age, and well people come up with new formats every so often. As long as you mix them up from time to time no one will get bored, at least I know I won't.

Then you have fan sets, which can be incorporated either into the current sets we have, or a new format dedicated exclusively for fan made content that is in fact approved by the council cause we can't allow every set to be in this format. I mean after all we have to "police" the sets that are being dished out.
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Bliven731
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I fail to see the argument about this. I like the idea of a new format. You guys act like if there is a new format it will COMPLETELY destroy the game and all old formats and everything. It seems like a pointless argument. Either play the new format or don't.
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Silkmane
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I actually think Shadowtrooper has made a great suggestion that I hope the community moves forward on:

Golden Age vs Golden Age or broken vs broken

As some have stated, it just seems that every time there's been a move to constrain the game of VS to a particular group of sets, the same thing emerges over and over again: the birth of the next broken deck or deck(s)

As this case seems to be inevitable, why not finally embrace and encapsulate this reoccurance within it's own format: Golden vs Golden. It would the equivalent of a recognized grandmaster's level in VS. You bring your "A" game that supposedly always kills or turn 4 and I'll bring mine... the rest would be legendary history.

Framing a new age out of certain sets with the addition of certain power cards seems destined to produce one or two mega broken decks that will rule the game until the next format shift and then the next...
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EvilDave
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It's more fun playing things that are conceptually interesting and working out; Golden is degenerate; certain combination of character setups / card combinations make for bad interactions, turn 4 kill vs turn 4 kill is a strictly luck based environment on what is supposed to be a primarily skill based game. There are 1000 games better than Golden Age VS. It works only on a casual level with players that generally don't build to win. Sad but true fact.
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Silkmane
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How is building a Golden Age deck more broken than building a broken deck in modern or silver?
If we are embracing the idea of "creating a new age", but both ages produce the same results. How is one age more degenrate than the other

What I'm suggestion as have others is that at least with golden as the known format, there's no pretense of the lack of a killer deck: everyone bring their deck that kills... no room for the casual at all.
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kariggi
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If you played weekly or bi-weekly w/e, a drop a set format could be fun.

First week open golden (w/bans errata as they stand)
vote drop 1 set play next week -
vote drop another set play next week - (so -2 sets, then -3 sets...)
ad not quite infinitum...how many sets did we get, how many weeks could I run drop a set golden.

The issue is of course who's playing?

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Shadowtrooper
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Thank you Silkmane.

This is true. No matter how many sets or cards you ban there will always be decks that will be better than the rest, and if a tourney comes around people will play those decks because they play to win. How does changing or banning certain sets from a long time based format change that fact? How is it that playing a broken deck in one format makes it so that playing a broken deck in another format is ok to do?

Eliminate MEV and you still have turn 4 decks. Eliminate MHG and you still have decks that kill on the 4th turn. Eliminate MOR and you still have decks that kill on the 4th turn. Eliminate MUN and you still have decks that win on turn 4. Eliminate MTU and can still make a turn 4 deck. So what then you going to do? Are you going to eliminate every set or card combination that allows for a 4th turn win? After that when we get the first super tuned 5th turn deck will you ban it too?


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Guglio
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There's one easy way to do this: Have Regular Golden and Soft-Golden formats.

Fo Soft-Golden, you take pretty much the top 5 powerful cards of each set (or up to 5, just no more) and "ban" them. The Pokemon Community does a similar thing (not the TCG, the actual game), where the powerful legendaries are stuck in the "Uber" metagame, and can't be used in "Standard."

But yeah, something like that would be good. Getting rid of Reign, CosmicRad, Omni, PA, and other trouble cards while keeping all the sets would be ideal, and since the playerbase is so small now, we can get away with using massive "soft-ban" lists.

I agree that Omni and PA are bad cards, as is A Clash of Worlds, but MEX and DCX have good, non-broken cards that still deserve to be played.
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