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| Learn me bout dat Rugby! | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 26 2009, 09:39 PM (222 Views) | |
| cyke | Sep 26 2009, 09:39 PM Post #1 |
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Maurice (YEOOW YEOOW!)
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So I caught the eels vs the bulldogs rugby game, and it was my first rugby match I ever sat through, and I am intrigued. Now I was able to work out the basics. But I got some questions. Why is it called football too? first the rest of the world calls soccer football, and then I hear the commentators call Rugby football too. can't the rest of the world make up their mind? Why is the field goal posts in the middle of the endzone, how many players get smashed trying to score a touchdown.. sorry a try? how does possession of the ball work in scroing a try? In american rules football, a player must have control of the ball in order to score a touchdown, yet i was watching guys just tap the ball while it was on the ground to score. I even saw one guy lay the ball down as he crossed, which would have been a bad thing in the NFL. What is the point of the scrum other than getting a big friendly group hug? how are tackles ruled exactly, I've seen some players get knocked down and then attemtp to get back up only to be dog piled, and then get smasked and pushed around on the ground- with is awesome- before hiking the ball to a team mate behind him. could the defense stop the hike or try to strip the ball from the grounded opponent before giving him a chance to hike it? and how much time does a tackled player have to get up and hike the ball, cuz it seems like it would be a good way to eat up the clock once a team is already ahead on points to take as much time as possible. And finally, this may seem condescending, but I don't really see alot of strategy or variation of tactics during the game. the defense form a line across the field, and the offense tries to break through it with lateral passes or forward kicks. repeat as needed. now fortunately, it was still entertaining watching huge mass of people collide, and when a guy does get get open how he can thread through people, and the trick plays of lateral passes, but I didn't get the same sense of tactical planning that is in american football thanks to the different formations and play calling the line of scrimage provides. Either way, I'm glad I turned in, and was really entertained, and saw some great plays and passing. in the NFL you rarely see lateral passing and flea-flicking except in the most desperate of situations, but rugby allows me to see all those so-called tricks plays happen all the time. |
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| onezy | Sep 27 2009, 06:17 AM Post #2 |
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Its really complicated to explain but I am soooo glad you started the thread. :) Also, in my explaination I am trying to respect both sides of the party, NFL and rugby league. Football is aussieland is known as soccer, australian rules footooball (AFL), rugby league, rugby union, NFL - yes we play it here. NFL field goal posts are called goal posts in league. The goal posts sit on the "try-line". The try line is where you can score a try. A try can be scored when DOWNWARD pressure is put on the football on the try-line or in-goal area. The scrum has become obsolete - league has been played in australia for the past 101 years (long time... huh) - and you are right, its a big man hug. Hahahaha You are tackled when the referee says "HELD or DOMINANT". About the condescending point. They are two different games, NFL and league. Different strengths in different areas. Did you notice that none of the league guys wear protective equipment? No helmut, no jock-strap, no shoulder pads. League has be called by commentators as one of the pyshically toughest sports to play at the elite level. I have a q for you about NFL. Why isn't there more lateral passing when rushing offensively? I thought strong NFL rushing teams would love the "lateral pass"? And is there a limit to how many lateral passes you can have in a down? *NFL lateral pass = backwards pass. True or False. |
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| cyke | Sep 27 2009, 03:59 PM Post #3 |
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Maurice (YEOOW YEOOW!)
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Yes a NFL lateral pass is a backwards pass and unlike a forward pass it can be done anywhere on the field, as many times as you want, while a foward pass can only be done behind the line of scrimage. It's not used as much becuase of the risk invovled in fear of dropping the pass and losing yards, or getting it picked it off. Unlike a forward pass if the offensive team drops the ball with a backwards pass it is still active and the defensive team can gain control of it. Also, becuase of the nature of the line of scrimage and 3-5 players as the offensive lineman, you rarely have more than a couple of recievers out in open field, unless the play is specifally designed for it, so when there is a backwards pass it will only be done a few times. The most common use of the lateral is during kick off return, and this looks very similiar to league rules, the kicking team lines up, kicks the ball to the recieving team. However the most common strategy during kick off returns is to form a wedge have the ball carrier run behind his blockes and looking for an open hole. In NFL the just made it a ruling that restricted how many players may be used as a wedge with most blocks coming down to man on man play. Although, I didn't see this in Rugby League. Are you allowed to hit blocks and screen for the ball carrier, becuase I mostly saw them run right into the defense. Another question, I know the offensive team has to kick it away after 6 tackles, and usually do it on the 5th tackle for fear of a turnover, but can they kick it as a foward pass anytime sooner and attempt to advance up the field more quickly. by having a reciever ran behind the defensive team to catch the kicked pass? And finally, what is the difference between Rugby Unoin and Rugby League? is it just the numner of players on the field (15 vs 13) and the difference is how many points a try is worth? Edited by cyke, Sep 27 2009, 04:16 PM.
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| onezy | Sep 28 2009, 08:37 AM Post #4 |
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About the blocking and screening. In league you are penalised if you "sheppard" your fellow player. Shepparding equates to blocking and screening. About the kicking. You have 6 tackles (same as downs but NFL has stoppage time when an incomplete pass occurs) to promote the ball. The rule in league is that you can kick on ANY tackle to promote the ball. And yes, many NRL teams use the kick as an offensive weapon to score points. On your final q, if you sat down with a couple of dudes and said this statement in australia, you would spark a lenghtly debate. Why? Cos there are sport tensions between the codes. Union has been seen as an upper class sport code and league has been seen as a blue collar sport (did you know Russel Crowe owns part of a rugby league club - how middle class is that?) I have a q for you: a random/fringe player in the NFL, what do they get paid? Anyways, its League grand final (superbowl) this weekend, who are you going for? Melbourne Storm or the Parramatta Eels? |
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| Ike E Bear | Oct 1 2009, 02:00 AM Post #5 |
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Sorry, I've arrived late. Exciting thread (not the least of whcih is because I'm an Eels fan, so this weekend's grand final is occupying a lot of my mindscape). Just for background, I was actually born in the US and lived there until I was almost 10. I moved here in 1986 (coincidentally the last time the Eels won a grand final) and got into League almost straight away. It's a great game and my favourite spectator sport. Onezy is a huge League fan and a lot of our Vs nights get derailed with the footy talk. Sorry if I go over some of the same stuff Scott did, but I'm desperate to avoid work at all costs. Hahaha.
Personally, I think Soccer is the one true "football" (they almost exclusively play with their feet, after all) and a lot of other sports have used it a bit foolishly. In Australia, there are so many different types of "footy" that it can be very confusing. Rugby League, like your NFL, is a variation of Rugby Union. Union is played more widely around the world than League, which is played most seriously here in a Australia and even then primarily in New South Wales (of which Sydney is the capital) and Queensland (of which Brisbane is the capital). League is considered more a working man's sport than Union ... but now that both codes are fully professional sports I think that distinction is a bit outdated. Meanwhile, Australian Rules Football (A.K.A. AFL) is a weird mix of soccer, basketball and rugby. It's played all over Australia, but it's primarily played in Victoria (of which Melbourne is the capital). So, most people refer to the game you watched as "League" or "NRL" (which stands for National Rugby League), but we also call it "footy" when talking to people who have a similar understanding of what "footy" means. Union is often referred to as "Rugby" and AFL is most commonly called "Aussie Rules" (although us League fans call it all kinds of terrible things). Interestingly, a number of AFL players have gone over to the US and done well as NFL kickers. Darren Bennett was one of few years ago - he played for the Chargers.
The goal posts can play quite a significant role in attacking plays. A lot of players will aim for the posts with their attacking kicks, since deflections can be very beneficial. And guys do cream themselves into them on a semi-regular basis ... it's great. Since defensive lines tend to compress in the centre of the field, a lot of tries are actually scored on the edges of the field, so the goal posts don't come into play as often as you'd think. I think it'd be really easy for the NRL to adopt NFL type goal posts if they wanted to, but the motivation isn't really there ... it'd cost a lot of money for local league competitions to adopt a change like that as well.
In Gridiron you merely have to carry the ball over the scoring line for a touch down, but in League and Union you have to "ground" the ball, meaning you have to put it onto the ground with downward pressure. You can be holding the ball or you can push down on the ball if it is already on the ground. If in possession of the ball, you are supposed to have control of the ball in order to score a try. A recent rule change has weakened this aspect though, so we've seen some dodgy tries this year where the tryscorer hasn't had much more than a fingertip on the ball as they score. Hopefully they'll tighten that back up though, because I don't think it's been very popular.
Scrums are pretty pointless in League. They are a crucial element of Union, where they scrummage properly, but I think scrums aren't that entertaining from a spectator perspective. The closest thing to a "point" of a scrum in League is to restart the game with all of the forwards pulled out of the defensive line. It means there should be more gaps for an attacking play. This point has been undermined in recent years, as teams often leave a forward out of the scrum to be a runner or a tackler. Onezy's favourite team, the Canberra Raiders, had an awesome play from a scrum against the Eels earlier this year where the guy at the back of the scrum picked up the ball and ran THROUGH THE SCRUM straight through to score. Unfortunately, they didn't quite execute it right and got penalised instead of scoring, but it was pretty cool. I wish more teams showed a bit of innovation around scrums.
Generally a tackle is achieved when an attacker is forced to the ground and held by one or more defenders. Two things can happen to change this up a bit. If a player is dragged to the ground but not held (say the defender lets go of him or his momentum sees him roll out of the tackle) then he is entitled to keep going. Also, if a player is not brought to the ground but his momentum is fully stopped, the referee will call "held" and he is considered tackled. Refs are now calling held a bit quicker and especially when a ball carrier is lifted off the ground in any way in the interest of player safety. They can get smashed pretty badly once they are more or less stopped or lifted. Tacklers are not allowed to hit attackers above the shoulders in effecting a tackle and they can't lift them up and pile drive them into the ground head first (called a "spear tackle"). There's other rules, but they are the most important ones.
In the past, the ball could be "contested" at almost every point of the game, meaning the defence can try to take the ball. In Union, the ball is almost constantly contested. Nowadays in League, however, once you have the ball you really have to drop it forward (called a "knock on") or concede an unlikely penalty in possession to lose it. Defenders can attempt to strip the ball in one-on-one tackles, but not in gang-tackles. You can't strip the ball off of a tackled player either. When a tackle is completed up to two players can stand directly in front of the tackled player as he gets up to play the ball, but everyone else has to be 10 metres back behind the referee. In the past, a marker could strike at the ball as it was played with his foot to try to gain possession, but that's been out for at least 15 years. Tackled players are motivated to get up and play the ball quickly most of the time because the next ball carrier will hit defenders who are still running backwards to get on-side. You might get a penalty or you'll just have the defenders on the back foot and gain more ground. If you're winning and it's near the end of the game, though, you might be motivated to play the ball slowly. You're obligated to play the ball, so if you're taking too long then the ref will order you to play it, or if you are supposedly injured the ref might call time out so the other team isn't unfairly disadvantaged.
You should watch a game of Aussie Rules then! That game looks scrappy as hell. Hahaha. I think because Gridiron starts every play from a stoppage, set plays can be a lot more elaborate, as you can set up your field differently and deliberately each time. Meanwhile, League is played on the run and the time between a tackle and the next play is only a matter of a few second. This makes the set plays a lot more subtle. Some teams also play a very structured style, while others look for a lot of off-loads (passes thrown in the course of a tackle, which sees a lot of defenders already rushing back to get on-side for the next play and is more likely to compromise the integrity of the defensive line - opening up gaps to run through) and ad-lib "second phase" play. In the game you watched, the Eels had an extraordinary number of off-loads. This in itself is a strategy. The game can definitely be repetitive in some respects, but to non-fans I think almost all games appear that way. The more you know about a game, the more subtleties you can spot.
In League (and Union for that matter) you're not allowed to throw forward passes. Mind you, there were definitely some slightly forward passes in the game you watched that the refs didn't pick up. I think that was one of the biggest changes the inventors of Gridiron made when they adapted Union into your game. It completely changes the game, which is great from both perspectives.
Also, in a game where gaining ground is the key objective, I think passing the ball backwards requires a lot of "gain" to get over the "pain" in NFL. That's why I think it's used sparingly.
Scott answered this one pretty well. In League you're flat out not allowed to block. Defenders have a right not to be impeded in trying to make a tackle by attacking players who don't actually have the ball. Likewise, a defender can't take someone out who doesn't have the ball.
Technically you don't have to kick it, you can run the ball on the last tackle, which can be used effectively on occasions because a number of defenders drop back in preparation for a kick and can leave the defensive line short. You get six tackles to do with as you please, kind of like Gridiron's four downs. You can kick it anytime you like. They only thing about it is that any attacking player catching the ball has to be behind the kicker when he kicks it to be on-side. So you can't hare off like a wide receiver and then have the ball kicked to you. This is why you see the "bomb" used in League a lot, where you kick the ball very high in the air which gives your players time to get to where it's coming down to either catch it or just put pressure on the defending players who are trying to catch it. There's also a thing called a 40-20, which a player named Jarryd Hayne pulled off for the Eels in the game you watched. If you kick the ball from within your 40 metre zone and get it over the side line (sometimes called the "touch line" or "into touch") in the opponent's 20 metre zone, you get to feed the resulting scrum instead of the opposition meaning you are practically guaranteed to get the ball back in a great attacking position with another six tackles.
This is a hard one to answer. As I said before, in Union the ball is almost constantly contested. There is no limit on the number of "phases" (their version of "tackles" or "downs") that you get to have the ball for, so as long as you can hang onto the ball it's yours. They have rucks where tackled players try to play the ball backwards to their team and the opposition tries to get it off them, this usually results in players coming in from both directions in what looks like an impromptu scrum. They also have "line-outs", which involve a number of players lining up from both teams and one side throwing the ball in. This looks kind of cool, with everyone leaping for the ball, the first time you see it, but it gets dead boring after a while, I reckon. Otherwise, yeah ... it's mostly just the extra number of players and points. The games actually are quite different, although it mightn't be that easy to see in the beginning. League has much bigger, harder collisions because the defensive line and attacking line are separated by at least 10 metres every play, which is where you get the battering ram like plays and huge hits that we all like so much. League fans tend to not like Union and vice versa. Professional sport in Australia is pretty small fry compared to the US in general, so the really highly paid players from all the different codes might earn up to $1 million a year (and League is one of the "poorer" sports in terms of player payments), so you can see a big difference to what you guys are used to. The Eels are the underdogs this Sunday, so send us some positive energy so we can crush the crappy Storm!!! |
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| cyke | Oct 1 2009, 12:14 PM Post #6 |
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Maurice (YEOOW YEOOW!)
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the Eels game will be this airing this sunday at 11AM. which is lucky for me, since my NFL team is not playing this week, so I have something to watch, although I'm not sure if the game will be a live showing or not, so I'll have to stay away from any League news till then. |
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| Ike E Bear | Oct 2 2009, 12:07 AM Post #7 |
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Fingers crossed for the Eels. I want them to win sooooooooooooooooooooo badly. Your telecast is definitely a delay, because I'm pretty sure it'll still be Saturday (although only just) over there when the game is played here. Check out http://bigpondvideo.com/NRL for some interesting videos in the lead up to the game ... especially the best attacking plays and best defensive plays highlights reels that have only just dropped off the front page. |
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| cyke | Oct 4 2009, 07:49 PM Post #8 |
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Maurice (YEOOW YEOOW!)
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sorry about them eels. |
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| Ike E Bear | Oct 5 2009, 05:48 AM Post #9 |
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Sigh. Hahaha. Since I've been in Australia and following the Eels, they've been in three grand finals ... they only won the first one, 23 years ago. Interestingly, though, in 2007, 2008 and 2009, the team that won the grand final lost the previous year's grand final ... so I have high hopes for the Eels in 2010! It was a tough game for the Eels. I think they were overwhelmed by the occasion a little and the Storm were almost flawless, especially in the first half. The Eels let in two relatively soft tries in the second half, but if they'd stopped at least one of those (or the game went 10 minutes longer), I think they would have been a real chance. Oh well. Them's the brakes. |
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| onezy | Nov 5 2009, 07:24 AM Post #10 |
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Go the canberra raiders in 2010 |
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| Ike E Bear | Aug 19 2010, 06:18 AM Post #11 |
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Is league on that Spike TV again this year? |
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